Some summertime fun: Comparing Crosby vs. McDavid best Playoff runs

[Gorskyontario]

So when McDavid doesn't produce at ES, it's unlucky, when Crosby doesn't produce at ES, it's because he played bad.

Crosby had 3 points in 7 games, McDavid had 11 points in 7 games. It's that simple.

Malkin had 8 points in 7 games.

 

[Gorskyontario]

You’ll fit in perfectly in this forum - which is dominated by people who are very proud of having been birthed in Canada and an over-representation of Penguins fans.

Another one of your fellow ‘highly respected’ Canadian forum regulars claims Ryan Getzlaf is better than Ovechkin.

I'm half Russian(I have citizenship and am fluent speaking Russian), and I still don't care for Ovechkin.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Funny that MSL has twice as many scoring titles, and the same number of cups despite mostly playing on bad lightning teams.

MSL wasn’t even the best player on his team most years so

 

[GreatGonzo]

So when McDavid doesn't produce at ES, it's unlucky, when Crosby doesn't produce at ES, it's because he played bad.

Don’t talk like you didn’t try to suggest that Crosbys 3 points were “underrated” why McDavids 11 points were “overrated.”

Yes, Crosby played bad. Instead of trying to find ways around that with ridiculous intangibles and excuses, just accept it for what it is.

I mean, Draisaitl played poor….dont you think if he didn’t, he would have given the team a better chance? Don’t you think the team would have had a better shot with more secondary scoring outside of just 2 games?

 

[Peter Tosh]

The current era has higher scoring than the era in which Crosby peaked, so using stats for comparing is misleading. Crosby has lead his team to three cups, McDavid has zero. That’s a fair measurment over different eras

 

[Letsdothis]

The current era has higher scoring than the era in which Crosby peaked, so using stats for comparing is misleading. Crosby has lead his team to three cups, McDavid has zero. That’s a fair measurment over different eras

Don't forget Toews 3 and Lemieux 2.

 

[blogofmike]

I mean, Draisaitl played poor….dont you think if he didn’t, he would have given the team a better chance? Don’t you think the team would have had a better shot with more secondary scoring outside of just 2 games?

The funny thing is, with 28 points through 3 rounds and a disappointing 3 points in 7 games in the Finals, Leon Draisaitl just replicated Crosby's 2009 playoff run.

And yet for some reason we've been comparing Crosby 09 to the guy who broke Gretzky's record for most assists in a playoff year (thus registering more assists than Crosby's career high in points), instead of Leon Draisaitl.

 

[Gorskyontario]

The current era has higher scoring than the era in which Crosby peaked, so using stats for comparing is misleading. Crosby has lead his team to three cups, McDavid has zero. That’s a fair measurment over different eras

Yeah and Rick Chartraw(sorry if I misspelled) has 4 or 5 cups, so he's better than Crosby I guess.

 

[blundluntman]

We should be comparing Mcdavid and Malkin’s best playoff runs if anything tbh

 

[daver]

Have changed #9 in the OP to read:

9. Crosby's 2008 playoffs was as good as McDavid's 2024 playoffs.

This is a true apples to apples comparison as both teams lost in their first SCF appearance. Here are some similarities:

- both players were their team's leading scorers after 3 rounds. Crosby was at a 1.50 PPG, McDavid was at a 1.72 PPG.

- as of Game 1 of the 3rd round, Malkin and Draisaitl were leading the charge for their teams before cooling off for the remainder of the playoffs due to playing through injuries. Draisaitl went from a 1.72 PPG to a 0.50 PPG the rest of the way. Malkin went from a 1.70 PPG to a 0.50 PPG the rest of the way.

- both players had elite on-ice support - Hossa for Crosby, Bouchard for McDavid

- both players played well in the SCF but in ultimately a losing effort. You can claim that McDavid got his team closer to the Cup than Crosby but you can claim that Crosby got his team better positioned to win earlier in the series than McDavid did. You can claim that an injured Draisaitl kept McDavid from winning, but you can say the same for the Crosby with Malkin.

Some things to consider:

League GPG has been higher the last three years than it was in 2008 to 2010. The average PLAYOFF league GPG from 2022 to 2024 was 3.05 The average PLAYOFF GPG from 2008 to 2010 was 2.80.

The Oilers played more of an offense first strategy than the Pens did over that timeframe but did actually tighten things down in 2024 more than the did in 2022 and 2023. The Pens tightened things down even more in 2008 on a relative basis.

The Pens had 3-0 leads in every series leading up to the SCF. They took care of business early lead by Crosby. You can point to a higher PPG for McDavid after three rounds but you can also point to more games where he didn't contribute leading to the Oilers having to play significantly more games before the SCF.

 

[JackSlater]

Have changed #9 in the OP to read:

9. Crosby's 2008 playoffs was as good as McDavid's 2024 playoffs.

This is a true apples to apples comparison as both teams lost in their first SCF appearance. Here are some similarities:

- both players were their team's leading scorers after 3 rounds. Crosby was at a 1.50 PPG, McDavid was at a 1.72 PPG.

- as of Game 1 of the 3rd round, Malkin and Draisaitl were leading the charge for their teams before cooling off for the remainder of the playoffs due to playing through injuries. Draisaitl went from a 1.72 PPG to a 0.50 PPG the rest of the way. Malkin went from a 1.70 PPG to a 0.50 PPG the rest of the way.

- both players had elite on-ice support - Hossa for Crosby, Bouchard for McDavid

- both players played well in the SCF but in ultimately a losing effort. You can claim that McDavid got his team closer to the Cup than Crosby but you can claim that Crosby got his team better positioned to win earlier in the series than McDavid did. You can claim that an injured Draisaitl kept McDavid from winning, but you can say the same for the Crosby with Malkin.

Some things to consider:

League GPG has been higher the last three years than it was in 2008 to 2010. The average PLAYOFF league GPG from 2022 to 2024 was 3.05 The average PLAYOFF GPG from 2008 to 2010 was 2.80.

The Oilers played more of an offense first strategy than the Pens did over that timeframe but did actually tighten things down in 2024 more than the did in 2022 and 2023. The Pens tightened things down even more in 2008 on a relative basis.

The Pens had 3-0 leads in every series leading up to the SCF. They took care of business early lead by Crosby. You can point to a higher PPG for McDavid after three rounds but you can also point to more games where he didn't contribute leading to the Oilers having to play significantly more games before the SCF.

It's like you're rubbing salt in your own wound. McDavid's 2024 playoff run was much better than Crosby's 2008 playoff run, and everyone, but one, in the thread knows that.

 

[daver]

It's like you're rubbing salt in your own wound. McDavid's 2024 playoff run was much better than Crosby's 2008 playoff run, and everyone, but one, in the thread knows that.

Much better how?

This thread has been an exercise of people making arguments for McDavid then disappearing when those same arguments are used for Crosby.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Have changed #9 in the OP to read:

9. Crosby's 2008 playoffs was as good as McDavid's 2024 playoffs.

This is a true apples to apples comparison as both teams lost in their first SCF appearance. Here are some similarities:

- both players were their team's leading scorers after 3 rounds. Crosby was at a 1.50 PPG, McDavid was at a 1.72 PPG.

- as of Game 1 of the 3rd round, Malkin and Draisaitl were leading the charge for their teams before cooling off for the remainder of the playoffs due to playing through injuries. Draisaitl went from a 1.72 PPG to a 0.50 PPG the rest of the way. Malkin went from a 1.70 PPG to a 0.50 PPG the rest of the way.

- both players had elite on-ice support - Hossa for Crosby, Bouchard for McDavid

- both players played well in the SCF but in ultimately a losing effort. You can claim that McDavid got his team closer to the Cup than Crosby but you can claim that Crosby got his team better positioned to win earlier in the series than McDavid did. You can claim that an injured Draisaitl kept McDavid from winning, but you can say the same for the Crosby with Malkin.

Some things to consider:

League GPG has been higher the last three years than it was in 2008 to 2010. The average PLAYOFF league GPG from 2022 to 2024 was 3.05 The average PLAYOFF GPG from 2008 to 2010 was 2.80.

The Oilers played more of an offense first strategy than the Pens did over that timeframe but did actually tighten things down in 2024 more than the did in 2022 and 2023. The Pens tightened things down even more in 2008 on a relative basis.

The Pens had 3-0 leads in every series leading up to the SCF. They took care of business early lead by Crosby. You can point to a higher PPG for McDavid after three rounds but you can also point to more games where he didn't contribute leading to the Oilers having to play significantly more games before the SCF.

There's really no argument for Crosby's 08 over McDavid's 2024 run. Yeah scoring is higher now but it's not making up for 1.72 vs 1.50 PPG through the first three rounds. McDavid also had the much better finals. Yes, Detroit with Lidstrom and Zetterberg is a tougher matchup than Barkov but it's not erasing a 5 point lead for McDavid. If Crosby had scored another 5 points in that finals the Penguins almost certainly win that series imo.

Be honest, if Sid had scored 42 points and broke Gretzky's playoff assist record there is zero chance you would be arguing for McDavid to be even with him if he only scored 27 points. That's a 15 point lead for McDavid. It's not even like Crosby's 09 playoffs run where he had the best goal scoring run of the last 20 years in the playoffs. Both Mcdavid and Crosby were pass first playmakers and McDavid had a significant advantage. He had more assists than Crosby's best playoff point total. No amount of adjustments or what ifs is closing that gap and it's frankly ridiculous to even try to argue it.

 

[JackSlater]

Much better how?

This thread has been an exercise of people making arguments for McDavid then disappearing when those same arguments are used for Crosby.

He significantly outscored Crosby.

 

[Midnight Judges]

There's really no argument for Crosby's 08 over McDavid's 2024 run. Yeah scoring is higher now but it's not making up for 1.72 vs 1.50 PPG through the first three rounds.

Limiting it to 3 rounds has no rational basis.

It serves no purpose aside from the agenda.

Nobody should be playing ball with this line of "reasoning."

 

[jigglysquishy]

If you look at Crosby 2008 SCF and McDavid 2024 SCF.

Crosby had 6 points in 6 games (+1), behind Hossa and tied with Zetterberg. He had points in 6 of 10 Penguins goals (60%).

McDavid had 11 points in 7 games (+5), 4 points ahead of Rodrigues and 6 ahead of Barkov. He had points in 11 of 23 Oilers goals (48%).

Fair point on the other Penguins' offense being anemic (10 goals in 6 games is awful), but I do think it's important to note that Hossa was right there with Crosby while no one was close to McDavid.

In the Conference Finals, Crosby had a great 7 points in 5 games (+4), but again was behind Hossa's 9 points in 5 games. Malone and Gonchar also had 6 points. Crosby was in on 7 of 20 Penguins' goals (35%).

For McDavid, he had 10 points in 6 games. Bouchard had 7 points and Hyman 5. McDavid was in on 10 of 17 Oilers' goals (58%),

Between those last two rounds.

Hossa led the Penguins with 16 points in 11 games while Crosby had 13 points. No other Penguin had more than Gonchar's 9 points.

McDavid led the Oilers with 21 points in 13 games. Bouchard had 12 points while no other Oiler had more than Hyman's 9 points.

I totally get the angle that Malkin disappeared, but the production gap between over the last two rounds McDavid vs. Crosby is pretty substantial.

 

[blogofmike]

Much better how?

This thread has been an exercise of people making arguments for McDavid then disappearing when those same arguments are used for Crosby.

Or you've been ignoring McDavid's accomplishments and Crosby's faults.

But which arguments are you talking about? Because you've ignored:

The more assists than anyone has points argument
McDavid set a new NHL record for assists (34). Meanwhile Crosby peaked at 31 points, and since 1993 only 2009 Malkin has scored more playoff points in a year than McDavid had assists in 2024. Crosby's with the rest of the field, with a point total below McDavid's assists total.

The Finals scoring Argument
McDavid became the 12th player to score 11 points in a Finals series. Meanwhile Crosby scored 3 points, tying Ruslan Fedotenko for 10th place in the 2009 Finals, using Art Ross rules (Fedotenko had far less ice time too, especially on the PP).

The big game argument
McDavid tied the record for most points when facing elimination (11 in 6 games), including a pair of 4-point games that gave him 4 4-point playoff games, tying the non-Gretzky single season record. Meanwhile, Crosby had 3 4-point games in his entire 180 game playoff career.

The 2x the closest teammate argument
In the 2024 Finals, McDavid doubled the scoring output of his next closest teammate. Meanwhile, Crosby was 1 point away from scoring half of what Malkin scored, and was nowhere close to the next best teammate. Even when Crosby has never doubled his closest teammate, even when he performed well and you say his teammates vanished. Again, Crosby has never done this. Ever.

Crosby isn't Mark Messier. He's not defending anyone, flattening anyone, or killing penalties. Again, the 2024 Oilers were winning the Finals while McDavid was on the ice, and the 2009 Penguins were losing the Finals when Crosby was on the ice. In both cases what happened when they were off the ice decided the series.

 

[Professor What]

This thread has been an exercise of people making arguments for McDavid then disappearing when those same arguments are used for Crosby.

Did you, of all people, actually say that?

 

[McPoyle]

How on earth is this thread still going? HOH is supposed to be for more serious discussion of hockey. Davey boy has to be trolling at this point.

 

[daver]

If you look at Crosby 2008 SCF and McDavid 2024 SCF.

Crosby had 6 points in 6 games (+1), behind Hossa and tied with Zetterberg. He had points in 6 of 10 Penguins goals (60%).

McDavid had 11 points in 7 games (+5), 4 points ahead of Rodrigues and 6 ahead of Barkov. He had points in 11 of 23 Oilers goals (48%).

Fair point on the other Penguins' offense being anemic (10 goals in 6 games is awful), but I do think it's important to note that Hossa was right there with Crosby while no one was close to McDavid.

In the Conference Finals, Crosby had a great 7 points in 5 games (+4), but again was behind Hossa's 9 points in 5 games. Malone and Gonchar also had 6 points. Crosby was in on 7 of 20 Penguins' goals (35%).

For McDavid, he had 10 points in 6 games. Bouchard had 7 points and Hyman 5. McDavid was in on 10 of 17 Oilers' goals (58%),

Between those last two rounds.

Hossa led the Penguins with 16 points in 11 games while Crosby had 13 points. No other Penguin had more than Gonchar's 9 points.

McDavid led the Oilers with 21 points in 13 games. Bouchard had 12 points while no other Oiler had more than Hyman's 9 points.

I totally get the angle that Malkin disappeared, but the production gap between over the last two rounds McDavid vs. Crosby is pretty substantial.

Fair point on pointing out players were right there with Crosby in scoring in the last two rounds. I have some questions:

1. Do you agree that Crosby was superior in the first two rounds using the same metrics?

Crosby and Malkin are tied in points at 14, Hossa has 10, the best d-man is Gonchar at 5.
Draisaitl has three more points than McDavid, the best d-man, Bouchard, is one point behind.


2. When does McDavid start to have a better SCF than Crosby using the same metrics?

Crosby's scores two goals early in Game 3 to put his team down 2-1 in the series. He wins this game as much as McDavid wins Game 5.

The Oilers are down 3-0 after Game 3. There is some value in McDavid's two 3rd period points in Game 3 but it is too little, too late.

Advantage Crosby after Game 3.

Can you really point to McDavid being the catalyst in Game 4? He scores to put them up 4-1 and scores 3 more points in a blowout win.

Advantage Crosby after Game 4.

Crosby scores two more points to put his team down 3-2 in Game 5. McDavid wins Game 5 for the Oilers to put them down 3-2.

Cannot say that one has a clear advantage over the other after Game 5.

Crosby scores in Game 6 to get his team close to pushing a Game 7. McDavid is scoreless in Game 6 and in Game 7.

There is a good argument to be made that Crosby's contribution is more significant (60% of the Pens offense vs. McDavid's 47%)

3. If raw point and PPGs are everything, where do you rate Crosby's 2018 playoff run and his 2010 series against the Sens against McDavid's best two round run and best series?


4. If the closeness of teammates in points is significant, how does this influence a comparison between Crosby's 2009 run and McDavid's 2024 run (1 player within 100% of Crosby's point total vs. 4 players within McDavid's). This also applies to 2010 and 2018.


5. If plus/minus is important, how much closer does this make Crosby to Malkin in 2009 (plus 9 vs. plus 3)?

Did you, of all people, actually say that?

See post above. Am I being unreasonable in applying the metrics for Crosby that the poster used to conclude that McDavid was better in the last two rounds of their respective first SC final runs?

He significantly outscored Crosby.

Feel free to answer to the five questions posted above.

 

[JackSlater]

Fair point on pointing out players were right there with Crosby in scoring in the last two rounds. I have some questions:

1. Do you agree that Crosby was superior in the first two rounds using the same metrics?

Crosby and Malkin are tied in points at 14, Hossa has 10, the best d-man is Gonchar at 5.
Draisaitl has three more points than McDavid, the best d-man, Bouchard, is one point behind.


2. When does McDavid start to have a better SCF than Crosby using the same metrics?

Crosby's scores two goals early in Game 3 to put his team down 2-1 in the series. He wins this game as much as McDavid wins Game 5.

The Oilers are down 3-0 after Game 3. There is some value in McDavid's two 3rd period points in Game 3 but it is too little, too late.

Advantage Crosby after Game 3.

Can you really point to McDavid being the catalyst in Game 4? He scores to put them up 4-1 and scores 3 more points in a blowout win.

Advantage Crosby after Game 4.

Crosby scores two more points to put his team down 3-2 in Game 5. McDavid wins Game 5 for the Oilers to put them down 3-2.

Cannot say that one has a clear advantage over the other after Game 5.

Crosby scores in Game 6 to get his team close to pushing a Game 7. McDavid is scoreless in Game 6 and in Game 7.

There is a good argument to be made that Crosby's contribution is more significant (60% of the Pens offense vs. McDavid's 47%)

3. If raw point and PPGs are everything, where do you rate Crosby's 2018 playoff run and his 2010 series against the Sens against McDavid's best two round run and best series?


4. If the closeness of teammates in points is significant, how does this influence a comparison between Crosby's 2009 run and McDavid's 2024 run (1 player within 100% of Crosby's point total vs. 4 players within McDavid's). This also applies to 2010 and 2018.


5. If plus/minus is important, how much closer does this make Crosby to Malkin in 2009 (plus 9 vs. plus 3)?



See post above. Am I being unreasonable in applying the metrics for Crosby that the poster used to conclude that McDavid was better in the last two rounds of their respective first SC final runs?



Feel free to answer to the five questions posted above.

McDavid's 2024 playoff performance is so far ahead of Crosby's 2008 that there is no point answering anything else. It's like asking who is taller, Chara or Crosby. I don't need to measure just Crosby's torso, then the width of his chest, then the circumference of his wrist, then ask about what if Crosby had his 2007 hairstyle. It's already blatantly obvious what the answer is.

 

[Professor What]

See post above. Am I being unreasonable in applying the metrics for Crosby that the poster used to conclude that McDavid was better in the last two rounds of their respective first SC final runs?

What I'm getting at is that you're accusing others of being inconsistent throughout the thread while you seem to have come to it with the idea that a certain thing is true, and it's just a matter of finding the proof of it, no matter how that has to come. It's really the pot calling the kettle black.

I really think you're better than that. You have an agenda to drive when it comes to Crosby, but when you get away from that, I feel like you're a really good poster. You just need to get past that whole "He's my favorite, so he's the best" approach.

 

[daver]

What I'm getting at is that you're accusing others of being inconsistent throughout the thread while you seem to have come to it with the idea that a certain thing is true, and it's just a matter of finding the proof of it, no matter how that has to come. It's really the pot calling the kettle black.

I really think you're better than that. You have an agenda to drive when it comes to Crosby, but when you get away from that, I feel like you're a really good poster. You just need to get past that whole "He's my favorite, so he's the best" approach.

Fair post. I could have made the OP more neutral.

I am primarily questioning the narrative the McDavid's playoff performances over the past three seasons, either viewed as three individual runs or combined, was "clearly" better than anything that Crosby ever accomplished. I think there is plenty of debate to be had where a "they are close" conclusion is more reasonable than a "much better" conclusion made by some. For context, I have no issue with the claim that McDavid has the "clearly better" regular season through their first nine seasons but their per game dominance in the regular season is "close".

IMO, a "Points!!" argument for McDavid is lacking in nuance as is a "Three Cups!!" argument for Crosby.

So I'll ask again, what was unreasonable in Post #170? I am asking posters to apply the same narratives and metrics to Crosby as they are to McDavid.

 

[blogofmike]

4. If the closeness of teammates in points is significant, how does this influence a comparison between Crosby's 2009 run and McDavid's 2024 run (1 player within 100% of Crosby's point total vs. 4 players within McDavid's). This also applies to 2010 and 2018.

Surely you can see what's disingenuous about this comparison, no?

2018 Pens
1 Guentzel, 10-11-21
2 Crosby, 9-12-21
3 Hornqvist, 5-6-11
4 Letang, 3-8-11
5 Kessel, 1-8-9

2024 Oilers
1 McDavid 8-34-42
2 Bouchard, 6-26-32
3 Draisaitl, 10-21-31
4 Hyman, 16-6-22
5 Hugent-Hopkins, 7-15-22

First Crosby didn't outscore Guentzel. So it's not quite the same, in spite of you finding the most generous possible way (to Crosby) to present these numbers.

Second, you've done the math wrong. Crosby would need 22 points to be 100% ahead of Hornqvist and Letang. In fact, 42/22 is exactly the same ratio as 21/11 (just double the numbers.)

Third, and this is key, you're making arguments that even YOU DON'T BELIEVE. Crosby did a thing (or you thought he did, but the math didn't check out) so you have to pretend that unique configuration is significant.

But Mark Messier outscored 3rd place on the 1989 Oilers by 200% (12-4). Meanwhile 2008 Crosby failed to outscore 5th place by 100% (27-14). If you believe in this metric, you'd say Messier 89 was better than Crosby 08.

But if the GP gap is too big, well, you compared 2 rounds to 4 rounds, so why don't we look at 2022 McDavid, who beat 4th place by over 100% (33-16)? 2022 McDavid played an extra round over 2018 Crosby, and only one round less than 2008 Crosby, AND McDavid did the the thing you pretended Crosby did in 2018. Crosby failed to outscore 4th place by 100% in 2008 and 2018.

I think this is kind of arbitrary, but If your arguments were logically consistent, you'd say this 2022 McDavid run blew 2008 Crosby away.

But you won't. because they're not and they never have been. You don't believe in the argument you've put forward, and you're offended that no one else does either.

 

[Dingo]

Fair post. I could have made the OP more neutral.

I am primarily questioning the narrative the McDavid's playoff performances over the past three seasons, either viewed as three individual runs or combined, was "clearly" better than anything that Crosby ever accomplished. I think there is plenty of debate to be had where a "they are close" conclusion is more reasonable than a "much better" conclusion made by some. For context, I have no issue with the claim that McDavid has the "clearly better" regular season through their first nine seasons but their per game dominance in the regular season is "close".

IMO, a "Points!!" argument for McDavid is lacking in nuance as is a "Three Cups!!" argument for Crosby.

So I'll ask again, what was unreasonable in Post #170? I am asking posters to apply the same narratives and metrics to Crosby as they are to McDavid.

I agree, when Daver doesnt have Crosby-goggles on he is actually a really smart and levelheaded contributor.