Some summertime fun: Comparing Crosby vs. McDavid best Playoff runs

[daver]

I agree, when Daver doesnt have Crosby-goggles on he is actually a really smart and levelheaded contributor.

How is applying the same metrics and narratives to Crosby as the ones being applied to McDavid biased? Please show me where I am wearing goggles in applying these metrics and narratives unfairly.

For example, do you seriously believe that McDavid thru 3 rounds in 2024 was better than Crosby thru 3 rounds in 2009 due to a marginally better PPG while ignoring goals, quality of linemates/offensive support, and six game opening goals (a playoff record?). Only one poster concedes that this is a maybe; another poster says McDavid was "much better" without engaging in any discussion despite a "POINTS" argument not being overly relevant.

I think people want to give McDavid credit for being as good as he was in 2022 in both 2023 and 2024 when each one should be analyzed separately. And that Crosby's 2009 SCF production gets overplayed as being representative of his whole 2009 run (i.e. Malkin carried the team) which ignores his 3 round performance as being one of the best 3 rounds runs since Wayne/Mario and that still overall, the 2009 Pens had one of the worst offensive supporting casts in NHL history for a Cup winner.

If one wants to argue that "who cares if McDavid wasn't as good in 2024, his team got to the SCF and within a goal of winning". I don't have an issue with that. I personally think his series against the Stars was his best of his career given he produced without Draisaitl on his line at ES and not producing very much period. Was it his highest point total or PPG? Nope. Only 3rd best of this playoffs.

Great players rise to the occasion when needed, McDavid did that in 2024. Even in the Canuck series, he was good when he needed to be to get the series win despite only scoring one goal and being 4th in team scoring.

But then Crosby did that throughout his career; got his team the Ws with huge numbers but also got the W with scoring at key times and in key games.

 

[JackSlater]

How is applying the same metrics and narratives to Crosby as the ones being applied to McDavid biased? Please show me where I am wearing goggles in applying these metrics and narratives unfairly.

For example, do you seriously believe that McDavid thru 3 rounds in 2024 was better than Crosby thru 3 rounds in 2009 due to a marginally better PPG while ignoring goals, quality of linemates/offensive support, and six game opening goals (a playoff record?). Only one poster concedes that this is a maybe; another poster says McDavid was "much better" without engaging in any discussion despite a "POINTS" argument not being overly relevant.

I think people want to give McDavid credit for being as good as he was in 2022 in both 2023 and 2024 when each one should be analyzed separately. And that Crosby's 2009 SCF production gets overplayed as being representative of his whole 2009 run (i.e. Malkin carried the team) which ignores his 3 round performance as being one of the best 3 rounds runs since Wayne/Mario and that still overall, the 2009 Pens had one of the worst offensive supporting casts in NHL history for a Cup winner.

If one wants to argue that "who cares if McDavid wasn't as good in 2024, his team got to the SCF and within a goal of winning". I don't have an issue with that. I personally think his series against the Stars was his best of his career given he produced without Draisaitl on his line at ES and not producing very much period. Was it his highest point total or PPG? Nope. Only 3rd best of this playoffs.

Great players rise to the occasion when needed, McDavid did that in 2024. Even in the Canuck series, he was good when he needed to be to get the series win despite only scoring one goal and being 4th in team scoring.

But then Crosby did that throughout his career; got his team the Ws with huge numbers but also got the W with scoring at key times and in key games.

You picked a ridiculous stance that doesn't require much of any analysis and then get pissy because people aren't interested in looking at it through the convoluted lens you are pushing. Everyone, except for you I guess, already knows that McDavid has the best playoff performance between the two of them. There is no need to jump through the hoops you are trying to erect.

 

[daver]

You picked a ridiculous stance that doesn't require much of any analysis and then get pissy because people aren't interested in looking at it through the convoluted lens you are pushing. Everyone, except for you I guess, already knows that McDavid has the best playoff performance between the two of them. There is no need to jump through the hoops you are trying to erect.

No need for name calling. You sound like an Edmonton reporter.

The OP doesn't ask about who has the best playoff performance between the two. It is trying to compare apples to apples since both have impressive individual runs over different number of rounds.

If you want to argue that McDavid has the best Cup run performance between the two (2024 vs. 2009), that is reasonable since McDavid had the better SCF in 2024 vs. 2009. But it is also reasonable to argue for Crosby since he was better in the 3 rounds leading up to the SCF. And a closer look at 2008 sees an arguably better SCF performance from Crosby than McDavid in 2024.

If you want to argue that McDavid in 2022 is the best performance, period, why is it not reasonable to compare that to Crosby through 3 rounds in 2009? Or compare to Crosby's best 2 round performances with a "points only" lens.

I look forward to another dismissive non-response.

 

[JackSlater]

No need for name calling. You sound like an Edmonton reporter.

The OP doesn't ask about who has the best playoff performance between the two. It is trying to compare apples to apples since both have impressive individual runs over different number of rounds.

If you want to argue that McDavid has the best Cup run performance between the two (2024 vs. 2009), that is reasonable since McDavid had the better SCF in 2024 vs. 2009. But it is also reasonable to argue for Crosby since he was better in the 3 rounds leading up to the SCF. And a closer look at 2008 sees an arguably better SCF performance from Crosby than McDavid in 2024.

If you want to argue that McDavid in 2022 is the best performance, period, why is it not reasonable to compare that to Crosby through 3 rounds in 2009? Or compare to Crosby's best 2 round performances with a "points only" lens.

I look forward to another dismissive non-response.

I don't know what name you are talking about but I'll take your word for it that Edmonton reporters are known for non-name name calling.

The OP specifically compares McDavid's 2024 and Crosby's 2008 playoffs and somehow declares that they are equal. Obviously they are not.

You're making ridiculous arguments and then expecting people to play ball on only your (ridiculous) terms. There is no argument for 2009 Crosby over 2024 McDavid as playoff runs. You can call it reasonable as many times as you want but it isn't. That's the level of response that your argument deserves. McDavid was significantly better offensively and neither did much defensively. There is no other factor that merits mentioning in terms of changing things in Crosby's favour. That's the actual argument and there is no way around it regardless of how much you want Crosby to have the better playoff run between the two.

 

[Dingo]

@daver

You remind me of Joe Rogan when he was in love with Ronda Rousey - she could beat the rest of the roster all at once in his eyes.

Its cool. You are positive about it.... relentless, but positive.

 

[daver]

I don't know what name you are talking about but I'll take your word for it that Edmonton reporters are known for non-name name calling.

The OP specifically compares McDavid's 2024 and Crosby's 2008 playoffs and somehow declares that they are equal. Obviously they are not.

You're making ridiculous arguments and then expecting people to play ball on only your (ridiculous) terms. There is no argument for 2009 Crosby over 2024 McDavid as playoff runs. You can call it reasonable as many times as you want but it isn't. That's the level of response that your argument deserves. McDavid was significantly better offensively and neither did much defensively. There is no other factor that merits mentioning in terms of changing things in Crosby's favour. That's the actual argument and there is no way around it regardless of how much you want Crosby to have the better playoff run between the two.

This sounds suspiciuously like a dismissive non-response so here is the the question again:

How was McDavid "much better" *(your words) in 2024 thru 3 rounds than Crosby was in 2009 thru 3 rounds?

@daver

You remind me of Joe Rogan when he was in love with Ronda Rousey - she could beat the rest of the roster all at once in his eyes.

Its cool. You are positive about it.... relentless, but positive.

Same question as above to you. What is your opinion on claim #1 in the OP?

 

[JackSlater]

This sounds suspiciuously like a dismissive non-response so here is the the question again:

How was McDavid "much better" *(your words) in 2024 thru 3 rounds than Crosby was in 2009 thru 3 rounds?



Same question as above to you. What is your opinion on claim #1 in the OP?

I don't particularly care how much better he was through three rounds. McDavid in 2024 was much better than was Crosby in 2009 (or 2008) through four rounds. McDavid has the best playoff performance between the two of them, specifically his 2024 playoffs.

I wouldn't compare regular seasons by just looking at the first 60 games when players played a full season and I don't care to give thought to how much better McDavid was through three rounds when both played four.

 

[McPoyle]

I am reminded of someone trying to convince the world the earth is flat.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Outside of points #3, #4 and #9, the OP is arguably true.

McDavid had a much better SCF in 2024 than Crosby in 2009, but Crosby was arguably better after 3 rounds. It’s not something that should strike a nerve to people, but apparently it does.

Also, has anyone else ever scored 30+ points in a Stanley Cup run playing alongside a player at ES who scored a total of 1 goal all playoffs?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Outside of points #3, #4 and #9, the OP is arguably true.

McDavid had a much better SCF in 2024 than Crosby in 2009, but Crosby was arguably better after 3 rounds. It’s not something that should strike a nerve to people, but apparently it does.

Also, has anyone else ever scored 30+ points in a Stanley Cup run playing alongside a player at ES who scored a total of 1 goal all playoffs?

You believe #2 is accurate?…

 

[daver]

I don't particularly care how much better he was through three rounds. McDavid in 2024 was much better than was Crosby in 2009 (or 2008) through four rounds. McDavid has the best playoff performance between the two of them, specifically his 2024 playoffs.

You seemed to care enough to claim that McDavid was "better" through three rounds earlier in the thread.

He was better through three rounds, then he was better in the fourth round, so he was better overall than in any playoff run Crosby ever had.

So how was McDavid better through three rounds besides a marginally better PPG which included four secondary PP assists vs. one for Crosby?

Or if you truly don't care who was better through 3 rounds, how can you possibly decide who was better in the whole playoffs when you are choosing to ignore 75% of the information in which to make a decision?

 

[daver]

Outside of points #3, #4 and #9, the OP is arguably true.

McDavid had a much better SCF in 2024 than Crosby in 2009, but Crosby was arguably better after 3 rounds. It’s not something that should strike a nerve to people, but apparently it does.

Also, has anyone else ever scored 30+ points in a Stanley Cup run playing alongside a player at ES who scored a total of 1 goal all playoffs?

Changed #4 to "as good as" and changed #9 to just their respective SCFs rather than the whole playoffs. For #4, winning has to have some value at some point and Crosby's Game 5 performance in 2017 is as good as McDavid's Game 5 performance this year.

As for hitting a nerve, people want to claim that since McDavid now has the better four round performance (a fair claim), that his 2022 performance now can be held even higher than it was since he seemingly played as good in 2024 as he did 2022, (not the case if one uses a "points/PPG only" argument); he just got more support from his team in 2024 to go farther.

So when an apples to apples comparison of McDavid's three rounds in 2022 vs. Crosby's first three rounds in 2009 goes to McDavid due to points (which, IMO, lacks reasonable context), the same cannot be said of an apples to apples comparison of McDavid's three rounds in 2024 vs. Crosby's first three rounds in 2009. McDavid had more support in 2024 than Crosby did in 2009 to get to the SCF.

People want to have their cake and eat it too.

If getting to the Cup final is significant, if not a necessity, in ranking the best playoff performances, that's fine. Then Crosby has four performances to rank vs. McDavid's one.

If performances where a team didn't make the SCF are just as significant, then Crosby has multiple playoff runs/series that are just as, if not more, impressive than McDavid's other runs/series besides 2024 using a "Points/PPG only" metric.

If 2024 is all about the SCF, not the 3 rounds leading up to it, then Crosby has three other SCFs to compare and two that are arguably are as good (2008 and 2017) while the other (TRIGGER ALERT!) clinched him the Conn Smythe.

If support from teammates/linemates (Malkin in 2009 and Hossa in 2008) is significant for Crosby, then Draisaitl's impact is also significant, and to a lesser degree, Bouchard, Hyman and Kane.

If mediocre teams/goaltending (for and against)/team defense needs to be considered when evaluating Crosby's best runs (2009 vs. the Caps, 2010 vs. the Sens), that needs to be considered for McDavid (2024 vs. the Kings, 2022 vs. the Flames).

If the timing of scoring matters for Crosby in 2018 and in the 2017 SCF, then that also has to be considered for McDavid in 2022 vs. the Avs and in the 2024 SCF.

If elevated league scoring levels and a more offense oriented team strategy (for the Oilers and generally speaking for the league) are not considered for McDavid, then perhaps Draisaitl, Kucherov, MacKinnon and Matthews are also better than Crosby, Ovechkin, Jagr (post Mario) and Malkin overall.

 

[JackSlater]

You seemed to care enough to claim that McDavid was "better" through three rounds earlier in the thread.



So how was McDavid better through three rounds besides a marginally better PPG which included four secondary PP assists vs. one for Crosby?

Or if you truly don't care who was better through 3 rounds, how can you possibly decide who was better in the whole playoffs when you are choosing to ignore 75% of the information in which to make a decision?

Yes, I did say it. It is an unimportant point however because they each played four rounds, and McDavid was clearly better through four rounds than Crosby was through four rounds in 2008 or 2009 or whichever playoff run you edit your OP to include next time. Performance through three rounds does is not worthy of focus or comment when players played four rounds.

McDavid very obviously has the best playoff run between he and Crosby.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

“Who was better in the 2010s? Kane or Ovechkin?”

“Nobody cares ! Ovechkin had the better career !”

Maybe don’t come in the thread if you’re not willing to discuss the OP’s claims.

 

[daver]

Yes, I did say it. It is an unimportant point however because they each played four rounds, and McDavid was clearly better through four rounds than Crosby was through four rounds in 2008 or 2009 or whichever playoff run you edit your OP to include next time. Performance through three rounds does is not worthy of focus or comment when players played four rounds.

McDavid very obviously has the best playoff run between he and Crosby.

At what point did, McDavid's 2024 playoff run become "obviously better" than Crosby's best playoff run (2009 or 2008)? After Round 1? Round 2? etc....

And Crosby has the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best runs then, correct?

 

[JackSlater]

At what point did, McDavid's 2024 playoff run become "obviously better" than Crosby's best playoff run (2009 or 2008)? After Round 1? Round 2? etc....

And Crosby has the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best runs then, correct?

At some point in the finals it was obvious that McDavid's playoffs were better than any that Crosby ever had. Crosby certainly has the second through fifth best four round playoff runs, yes.

It's very obvious that McDavid has the best playoff run between the two of them. The funniest thing is that in my eyes the biggest winner based on your statements is Zetterberg. If Crosby's 2008 and 2009 playoffs are equal to McDavid's 2024 playoffs, or even better, then Zetterberg in 2008 is right there with Gretzky and Lemieux for the very best playoff runs ever.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

At some point in the finals it was obvious that McDavid's playoffs were better than any that Crosby ever had. Crosby certainly has the second through fifth best four round playoff runs, yes.

It's very obvious that McDavid has the best playoff run between the two of them. The funniest thing is that in my eyes the biggest winner based on your statements is Zetterberg. If Crosby's 2008 and 2009 playoffs are equal to McDavid's 2024 playoffs, or even better, then Zetterberg in 2008 is right there with Gretzky and Lemieux for the very best playoff runs ever.

I'll say McDavid has the #1 and #2 runs between the 2 players with '24 and '22. Even with only making the WCF, his 33 pts are more than Crosby ever scored in a playoff as are his 23 assists and +15 in only 16 games

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Changed #4 to "as good as" and changed #9 to just their respective SCFs rather than the whole playoffs. For #4, winning has to have some value at some point and Crosby's Game 5 performance in 2017 is as good as McDavid's Game 5 performance this year.

As for hitting a nerve, people want to claim that since McDavid now has the better four round performance (a fair claim), that his 2022 performance now can be held even higher than it was since he seemingly played as good in 2024 as he did 2022, (not the case if one uses a "points/PPG only" argument); he just got more support from his team in 2024 to go farther.

So when an apples to apples comparison of McDavid's three rounds in 2022 vs. Crosby's first three rounds in 2009 goes to McDavid due to points (which, IMO, lacks reasonable context), the same cannot be said of an apples to apples comparison of McDavid's three rounds in 2024 vs. Crosby's first three rounds in 2009. McDavid had more support in 2024 than Crosby did in 2009 to get to the SCF.

People want to have their cake and eat it too.

If getting to the Cup final is significant, if not a necessity, in ranking the best playoff performances, that's fine. Then Crosby has four performances to rank vs. McDavid's one.

If performances where a team didn't make the SCF are just as significant, then Crosby has multiple playoff runs/series that are just as, if not more, impressive than McDavid's other runs/series besides 2024 using a "Points/PPG only" metric.

If 2024 is all about the SCF, not the 3 rounds leading up to it, then Crosby has three other SCFs to compare and two that are arguably are as good (2008 and 2017) while the other (TRIGGER ALERT!) clinched him the Conn Smythe.

If support from teammates/linemates (Malkin in 2009 and Hossa in 2008) is significant for Crosby, then Draisaitl's impact is also significant, and to a lesser degree, Bouchard, Hyman and Kane.

If mediocre teams/goaltending (for and against)/team defense needs to be considered when evaluating Crosby's best runs (2009 vs. the Caps, 2010 vs. the Sens), that needs to be considered for McDavid (2024 vs. the Kings, 2022 vs. the Flames).

If the timing of scoring matters for Crosby in 2018 and in the 2017 SCF, then that also has to be considered for McDavid in 2022 vs. the Avs and in the 2024 SCF.

If elevated league scoring levels and a more offense oriented team strategy (for the Oilers and generally speaking for the league) are not considered for McDavid, then perhaps Draisaitl, Kucherov, MacKinnon and Matthews are also better than Crosby, Ovechkin, Jagr (post Mario) and Malkin overall.

I still don’t think Crosby’s 2008 or 2017 Finals is as good as McDavid’s 2024. Yes he won in 2017, but that should be taken in consideration mostly when analyzing the big picture, rather than just a single series.

I agree with your other claims, though.

As for point number 2, the only way I’d see McDavid’s performance being overrated because of points is the difference in scoring environments when you compare it to Crosby’s 2009 playoffs.

As a side note: McDavid’s finals in 2024 is something that’s going to end up being extremely important for his legacy, especially when he gets compared to Crosby, who struggled to have one big finals series in terms of production, in 4 appearances.

As for Crosby, I agree, his performance is underrated if you only look at points, especially in the first 3 rounds. Crosby played at ES with a player who’s scored 1 goal during the entire playoffs, was very good on the tail end of every series (7 points in the 3 series clinching games in round 1-3) and had the highest amount of goals after three rounds, in any playoff season of the 21st century, with 14 (tied by Hyman last year).

His Finals performance is also underrated by some stat watchers. Crosby had to face one of the best shutdown duo of the century, maybe ever (Bergeron and Chara are up there too). Zetterberg and Lidstrom completely shut down Crosby, who was playing alongside ghosts for most of the games, compared to a player like Hossa he had the prior year. That benefited the other lines that could feast on lesser competition, especially Malkin, who had a field day vs the rest of what Detroit had to offer, especially when Datsyuk was out. Ultimately, Pittsburgh won, so the impact of Crosby’s poor production can get reduced a bit.

Now, was Crosby’s production in the Finals disappointing? Yes. Can it be explained? Yes, partially. It’s illogical to think Crosby would’ve turned into a pumpkin in the Finals, after the 3 rounds he had beforehand. You saw the same thing if you watched the games, too. Detroit ultimately prevented him from having one of the best playoff runs ever.

 

[JackSlater]

I'll say McDavid has the #1 and #2 runs between the 2 players with '24 and '22. Even with only making the WCF, his 33 pts are more than Crosby ever scored in a playoff as are his 23 assists and +15 in only 16 games

It's possible but I don't like comparing an incomplete playoff run to a full four round playoff run. In general it's murky to me to compare playoff runs, unless it is something very obvious like McDavid in 2024 having a better un than any that Crosby ever had. Sample sizes are small and strength of opposition can vary significantly.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I still don’t think Crosby’s 2008 or 2017 Finals is as good as McDavid’s 2024. Yes he won in 2017, but that should be taken in consideration mostly when analyzing the big picture, rather than just a single series.

I agree with your other claims, though.

As for point number 2, the only way I’d see McDavid’s performance being overrated because of points is the difference in scoring environments when you compare it to Crosby’s 2009 playoffs.

As a side note: McDavid’s finals in 2024 is something that’s going to end up being extremely important for his legacy, especially when he gets compared to Crosby, who struggled to have one big finals series in terms of production, in 4 appearances.

As for Crosby, I agree, his performance is underrated if you only look at points, especially in the first 3 rounds. Crosby played at ES with a player who’s scored 1 goal during the entire playoffs, was very good on the tail end of every series (7 points in the 3 series clinching games in round 1-3) and had the highest amount of goals after three rounds, in any playoff season of the 21st century, with 14 (tied by Hyman last year).

His Finals performance is also underrated by some stat watchers. Crosby had to face one of the best shutdown duo of the century, maybe ever (Bergeron and Chara are up there too). Zetterberg and Lidstrom completely shut down Crosby, who was playing alongside ghosts for most of the games, compared to a player like Hossa he had the prior year. That benefited the other lines that could feast on lesser competition, especially Malkin, who had a field day vs the rest of what Detroit had to offer, especially when Datsyuk was out. Ultimately, Pittsburgh won, so the impact of Crosby’s poor production can get reduced a bit.

Now, was Crosby’s production in the Finals disappointing? Yes. Can it be explained? Yes, partially. It’s illogical to think Crosby would’ve turned into a pumpkin in the Finals, after the 3 rounds he had beforehand. You saw the same thing if you watched the games, too. Detroit ultimately prevented him from having one of the best playoff runs ever.

what About Crosbys 2016 vs McDavids 2024?

There is nothing “underrated” about his
finals play in ‘09. He simply couldn’t handle the match ups and struggled on both ends of the ice. He was poor in the finals and needed his team to bail him out. To say “well they still won so crosbys production gets reduced a bit” proves my point. It doesn’t matter if Crosby played poor, all is forgiven since they won….and since they won you feel the need to have to give him some credit, even if that credit is basically taking on the tougher match ups and not doing anything with it.

Crosbys production in the finals is actually pretty mediocre overall compared to the rest of his playoffs.

At what point did, McDavid's 2024 playoff run become "obviously better" than Crosby's best playoff run (2009 or 2008)? After Round 1? Round 2? etc....

And Crosby has the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best runs then, correct?

the fact that you have to keep dissecting it by each round says a lot.

McDavids 2022 and 2024 runs are better than any of crosbys simply off of production alone. Your need to add context to it shows that Crobsy doesn’t even have a good argument over those years.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Here’s how I would rank their playoff runs in their first 9 seasons, in tiers:

Tier 1: All time great playoff performances

2024 McDavid

Tier 2 : Elite playoff performances

2022 McDavid
2009 Crosby
2008 Crosby

Tier 3 : Elite shortened playoff performances.

2023 McDavid
2010 Crosby

Tier 4 : Good, but not great performances

2013 Crosby

Tier 5: Good start, but not enough meat on the bone to rank higher

2020 McDavid

Tier 6: Very average showings

2012 Crosby
2007 Crosby
2021 McDavid

Tier 7: Underwhelming performances

2017 McDavid
2014 Crosby

Overall, here is how I’d rank them

2024 McDavid
2022 McDavid
2009 Crosby
2008 Crosby
2010 Crosby
2023 McDavid
2013 Crosby
2020 McDavid
2012 Crosby
2007 Crosby
2021 McDavid
2017 McDavid
2014 Crosby

McDavid has the small advantage, mostly due to 2024 and the fact that he’s generally been more consistent from round to round, while Crosby had more ups and downs.

 

[daver]

Here’s how I would rank their playoff runs in their first 9 seasons, in tiers:

Tier 1: All time great playoff performances

2024 McDavid

Tier 2 : Elite playoff performances

2022 McDavid
2009 Crosby
2008 Crosby

Tier 3 : Elite shortened playoff performances.

2023 McDavid
2010 Crosby

Tier 4 : Good, but not great performances

2013 Crosby

Tier 5: Good start, but not enough meat on the bone to rank higher

2020 McDavid

Tier 6: Very average showings

2012 Crosby
2007 Crosby
2021 McDavid

Tier 7: Underwhelming performances

2017 McDavid
2014 Crosby

Overall, here is how I’d rank them

2024 McDavid
2022 McDavid
2009 Crosby
2008 Crosby
2010 Crosby
2023 McDavid
2013 Crosby
2020 McDavid
2012 Crosby
2007 Crosby
2021 McDavid
2017 McDavid
2014 Crosby

McDavid has the small advantage, mostly due to 2024 and the fact that he’s generally been more consistent from round to round, while Crosby had more ups and downs.

Very fair list. I would rate McDavid's 2021 as underwhelming. No points and a -2 in the first two games, and no wins for his team.

The anomaly here is that Crosby effectively gets penalized for his team winning in Round 3 in 2009 vs. McDavid's team getting swept in Round 3 in 2022, with a finger being partially pointed to McDavid not producing until it was too late in Game 1, then not enough in Games 2 and 3 as the Oilers got outrunned and gunned.

I very good argument can be made that his 2008 performance is underrated. Like McDavid in 2024, he was very good until Game 1 of the CF but others were also very good or better. After Game 1 of the ECF, Crosby scores at a 2.0 PPG in the Pens five more playoff wins as Malkin regresses due to injury. The Pens get within a goal of taking the SCF to Game 7 against the clear best Cup winner in the last two decades. McDavid got his team within two wins of winning the Cup.

The Pens were 12-2 going into the SCF with a 1.86 GA. In 2022, the Oilers were 8-8 with a 3.69 GAA. Do you think that the Oilers Run and Gun style may have affected McDavid's point totals?

So all that being said, I think your tiers are good but cannot agree that McDavid deserves the Top 2 spots. It would not be unreasonable to place McDavid's 2022 playoff in the Tier 3 : Elite shortened playoff performances given his team won 8 games vs. 7 for the Pens in 2010 than it is comparing it to a 16 win and a 14 win playoff runs.

 

[bobholly39]

You believe #2 is accurate?…

#2? That's probably the easiest statement in the OP to agree with lol. Weird that that's the one you'd call out. It just says both performances can be said to be a bit overrated/underrated - without any conclusions as to how much. Don't see an issue with that.

Here’s how I would rank their playoff runs in their first 9 seasons, in tiers:

Tier 1: All time great playoff performances

2024 McDavid

Tier 2 : Elite playoff performances

2022 McDavid
2009 Crosby
2008 Crosby

Tier 3 : Elite shortened playoff performances.

2023 McDavid
2010 Crosby

Tier 4 : Good, but not great performances

2013 Crosby

Tier 5: Good start, but not enough meat on the bone to rank higher

2020 McDavid

Tier 6: Very average showings

2012 Crosby
2007 Crosby
2021 McDavid

Tier 7: Underwhelming performances

2017 McDavid
2014 Crosby

Overall, here is how I’d rank them

2024 McDavid
2022 McDavid
2009 Crosby
2008 Crosby
2010 Crosby
2023 McDavid
2013 Crosby
2020 McDavid
2012 Crosby
2007 Crosby
2021 McDavid
2017 McDavid
2014 Crosby

McDavid has the small advantage, mostly due to 2024 and the fact that he’s generally been more consistent from round to round, while Crosby had more ups and downs.

Not a bad breakdown overall - I just wanted to point out that when it comes to McDavid 2021 - it's dead last for me. I hated that performance more than words can describe. It really blows my mind and impresses the hell out of me how McDavid was able to come back one year later and completely change my opinion of him - because after 2021 I was close to giving up on him as someone who would race for points in the season rather than conserve energy/try to do well come playoffs, as 2021 playoffs was supremely disappointing.

But yes - since then, he's been stellar.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Very fair list. I would rate McDavid's 2021 as underwhelming. No points and a -2 in the first two games, and no wins for his team.

The anomaly here is that Crosby effectively gets penalized for his team winning in Round 3 in 2009 vs. McDavid's team getting swept in Round 3 in 2022, with a finger being partially pointed to McDavid not producing until it was too late in Game 1, then not enough in Games 2 and 3 as the Oilers got outrunned and gunned.

I very good argument can be made that his 2008 performance is underrated. Like McDavid in 2024, he was very good until Game 1 of the CF but others were also very good or better. After Game 1 of the ECF, Crosby scores at a 2.0 PPG in the Pens five more playoff wins as Malkin regresses due to injury. The Pens get within a goal of taking the SCF to Game 7 against the clear best Cup winner in the last two decades. McDavid got his team within two wins of winning the Cup.

The Pens were 12-2 going into the SCF with a 1.86 GA. In 2022, the Oilers were 8-8 with a 3.69 GAA. Do you think that the Oilers Run and Gun style may have affected McDavid's point totals?

So all that being said, I think your tiers are good but cannot agree that McDavid deserves the Top 2 spots. It would not be unreasonable to place McDavid's 2022 playoff in the Tier 3 : Elite shortened playoff performances given his team won 8 games vs. 7 for the Pens in 2010 than it is comparing it to a 16 win and a 14 win playoff runs.

I don’t mind it. FWIW, I think Crosby was better in the first 3 rounds of 2009 than McDavid was, in any first 3 rounds he’s played in the playoffs. Crosby gets penalized for his production in the finals.

I think it’s fair to put his 2022 season in tier 3, as like you’ve mentioned, his team did not win a single game in the conference finals. Part of that is due to the Oilers stacking one line, to the overall detriment of the team. It definitely affected McDavid’s point totals, but I can’t really fault him for that. It’s something to take into consideration for sure, though.

Ultimately, the 2009 playoffs have done more for Crosby’s legacy than the 2022 playoffs for McDavid’s.

 

[daver]

I don’t mind it. FWIW, I think Crosby was better in the first 3 rounds of 2009 than McDavid was, in any first 3 rounds he’s played in the playoffs. Crosby gets penalized for his production in the finals.

I think it’s fair to put his 2022 season in tier 3, as like you’ve mentioned, his team did not win a single game in the conference finals. Part of that is due to the Oilers stacking one line, to the overall detriment of the team. It definitely affected McDavid’s point totals, but I can’t really fault him for that. It’s something to take into consideration for sure, though.

Ultimately, the 2009 playoffs have done more for Crosby’s legacy than the 2022 playoffs for McDavid’s.

It's not about blaming McDavid for being on a stacked line to the detriment of his team; that is more of a reflection of Draisaitl not being as good of a line driver as his overall offensive numbers would suggest. It is more of a recognition that Crosby won his three Cups with his most common ES linemates being not the clear 2nd best forward (or clear 3rd best in Kessel) on the team and/or playing with not Top 6 forward calibre wingers.

Here are the % of ES time that McDavid and Draisaitl were together in the last four playoffs:

2021- 85%
2022 - 65%
2023 - 50%
2024 - 30%

Their is a good correlation between the amount of time they play separate at ES and their team success. I would say that McDavid's 2024 run, notably his Dallas series, stand out as him carrying the team offensively without having to stack one line, and play effectively all-out offense.

As this point, we have a three year playoff run by McDavid, during his peak, vs. a three year run by Crosby, before his peak, (although I think he was in peak form after a slow start to the 09/10 season.) vs. another great three year run by Crosby after his peak - '16 to '18.

You can point to Crosby not having at least one full season at his peak, you can also point to him not having an elite playoff run at his peak. He may have the most underwhelming playoff resume during his peak out of the Top 10/20 all-time forward group