Some details about the World Cup...

[Theokritos]

My point is that we shouldn't act as if amateurism is some stupid north american concept that Europeans never cared for anyway.

 

[jekoh]

My point is that we shouldn't act as if amateurism is some stupid north american concept that Europeans never cared for anyway.

The idea that the Olympics are meant for amateurs has been abandonned in Europe 30 years ago, but is still widespread in NA.

 

[Kalzu]

So basically twelve months of NHL is one season of NHL and 21 months of NHL is three seasons of NHL. That's some really interesting math for an uneducated guy like myself.

Now it's gonna be:

2016-17: WC
2017-18: Olympics
2018-19: No best-on-best events
2019-20: No best-on-best events

So there's gonna be two seasons in a row with a best-on-best event and two in a row without. I'd prefer:

2015-16: WC
2016-17: No best-on-best events
2017-18: Olympics
2018-19: No best-on-best events

I have no sympathy for the IIHF. They could have set up their own 'best vs best' tournament over the years but chose not to.

Yeah, hosting an annual WCh during the Stanley Cup playoffs doesn't really seem like an attempt to have a best-on-best event. The WCh has two issues. Coinciding with Stanley Cup playoffs plus being way too often. I think two best-on-best events in four years would be ideal, like in soccer. A World Cup between the Olympics would be great.

 

[xxxx]

To be honest, I would rather see amateurs at olympics, or something like in soccer. I haven't seen any football player whining that they have no opportunity to win the olympic gold medal. Nor football fans.

 

[Kalzu]

To be honest, I would rather see amateurs at olympics, or something like in soccer. I haven't seen any football player whining that they have no opportunity to win the olympic gold medal. Nor football fans.

The difference between soccer and hockey is that soccer is big almost everywhere and a separate WC gets more attention as soccer, even with big names, would get somewhat lost among other sports at the Olympics. Hockey is another case. The Olympics enable it to get attention where it's not big. Plus with curling being the only other sport, hockey stands out better in the smaller winter games than soccer in the bigger summer games. Basketball might be big enough to get at least the same attention with a WC being the top event than by having the NBA guys at the Olympics.

 

[xxxx]

The difference between soccer and hockey is that soccer is big almost everywhere and a separate WC gets more attention as soccer, even with big names, would get somewhat lost among other sports at the Olympics. Hockey is another case. The Olympics enable it to get attention where it's not big. Plus with curling being the only other sport, hockey stands out better in the smaller winter games than soccer in the bigger summer games. Basketball might be big enough to get at least the same attention with a WC being the top event than by having the NBA guys at the Olympics.

That's a good point.

 

[Rekin]

I don't think that a soccer-style IIHF World Cup would as such be a bad idea, however one very major and fundamental difference is that the FIFA World Cup takes place in summer when all major domestic leagues are having their off-season. In hockey the same would be very difficult to arrange.

 

[jekoh]

I don't think that a soccer-style IIHF World Cup would as such be a bad idea, however one very major and fundamental difference is that the FIFA World Cup takes place in summer when all major domestic leagues are having their off-season. In hockey the same would be very difficult to arrange.

It would merely need the NHL to start its season a month earlier like every other league does.

 

[Jussi]

You're aware that prior to 1988 only amateurs were allowed?

You are aware that the term "amateur" was very loose since the 80's already as most of the athletes were already getting paid well enough throughout their domestic leagues and season long world cup tours etc.?

 

[JackSlater]

World champions are world champions, World Cup winners are World Cup winners. No matter how good players they get together, the NHL has no right to organize legitimate world championships.

The IIHF pretty much disagrees, as they endorsed Canada Cup tournaments and in this instance referred to the winner as true world's champions.

"The 1976 Canada Cup proved that Canada had the best team, but like the wakeup call in 1972, it also proved there were several other nations close to the top or able to beat Canada on any particular day. The 1976 Canada Cup was the maturation of international hockey, the event that took international hockey out of a “European” context and into a global context of best on best, the winners crowned, in one sense, true world’s champions."

http://http://www.iihf.com/iihf-home/the-iihf/100-year-anniversary/100-top-stories/story-6/

To be honest, I would rather see amateurs at olympics, or something like in soccer. I haven't seen any football player whining that they have no opportunity to win the olympic gold medal. Nor football fans.

There is no benefit to seeing inferior players competing instead of the world's best. It's such an outdated and absurd concept in this day and age. If the Olympic gold medal is to mean anything at all, it requires the best players to actually compete for it.

 

[Jussi]

It would merely need the NHL to start its season a month earlier like every other league does.

If it would include FIFA style qualifying, the domestic league schedules are packed enough already. Even with the cancellation of EHT, they could only find dates in there for two of the group rounds. There wouldn't be dates to play so it's not a realistic idea at all.

 

[Rekin]

I don't think the Canada Cup tournaments are a good measure for anything, after all the last editions were not much more than a total failure with the biased refereeing in 1987 and the B teams 4 years later. The World Cup will really have to do better than that, no matter what concept they'll choose for it.

 

[xxxx]

It would merely need the NHL to start its season a month earlier like every other league does.

Every other league? This is not soccer. You are not talking about English premier league and comparing it to Serie A in Italy. No other league in the world plays 82 up to 110 games in one season, not counting the pre-seasons games. No other league has draft. No other league has such a good preperation before the start of the season (physical tests, on and off ice practises, etc.) It's not that easy to just have season a month earlier. And, it'd be basically minus one month for many players if you wanted the best ones join the Worlds after the SC final. Again, the problem is not only in NA, as you seem to suggest everytime.

 

[jekoh]

If it would include FIFA style qualifying, the domestic league schedules are packed enough already. Even with the cancellation of EHT, they could only find dates in there for two of the group rounds. There wouldn't be dates to play so it's not a realistic idea at all.

Why would it need to include FIFA-style qualifying, though?

What I was getting at is that the annual WCh could be that FIFA-style world cup. In this scenario, there is no qualifying involved.

If you really want it to involve qualifiers, I'm not sure what scenario you have in mind but I don't see why you cannot have 2 rounds of 4-teams tournaments like you do in Olympic years, or even just 1 round with some teams through automatically based on the IIHF ranking or whatever other system they could come up with.

 

[xxxx]

There is no benefit to seeing inferior players competing instead of the world's best. It's such an outdated and absurd concept in this day and age. If the Olympic gold medal is to mean anything at all, it requires the best players to actually compete for it.

Well, you might be right.

 

[jekoh]

No other league in the world plays 82 up to 110 games in one season, not counting the pre-seasons games. No other league has draft. No other league has such a good preperation before the start of the season (physical tests, on and off ice practises, etc.) It's not that easy to just have season a month earlier. And, it'd be basically minus one month for many players if you wanted the best ones join the Worlds after the SC final. Again, the problem is not only in NA, as you seem to suggest everytime.

Playing 82 games starting in September does not take any longer than playing 82 games starting in October, does it?

 

[Canuckistani]

The IIHF pretty much disagrees, as they endorsed Canada Cup tournaments and in this instance referred to the winner as true world's champions.

"The 1976 Canada Cup proved that Canada had the best team, but like the wakeup call in 1972, it also proved there were several other nations close to the top or able to beat Canada on any particular day. The 1976 Canada Cup was the maturation of international hockey, the event that took international hockey out of a “European†context and into a global context of best on best, the winners crowned, in one sense, true world’s champions."

http://http://www.iihf.com/iihf-home/the-iihf/100-year-anniversary/100-top-stories/story-6/

The IIHF's 100 top stories make for interesting reading.

God only knows why so many European fans disregard the Canada Cup when it provides several of the top stories including #9 which states that the 1981 Canada Cup final "was arguably the best game played by the CCCP-team in the history of Soviet hockey." Hard not to agree.

The list is from 2008 so I suppose we'd have to add...Crosby's goal in 2010, Kovalchuk's OT goal in 2008, Canada's defensive dominance in Sochi, Switzerland taking the big leap in 2013...

 

[Urbanskog]

Every other league? This is not soccer. You are not talking about English premier league and comparing it to Serie A in Italy. No other league in the world plays 82 up to 110 games in one season, not counting the pre-seasons games. No other league has draft. No other league has such a good preperation before the start of the season (physical tests, on and off ice practises, etc.) It's not that easy to just have season a month earlier. And, it'd be basically minus one month for many players if you wanted the best ones join the Worlds after the SC final. Again, the problem is not only in NA, as you seem to suggest everytime.

The KHL has its own draft.

 

[Canuckistani]

I don't think the Canada Cup tournaments are a good measure for anything, after all the last editions were not much more than a total failure with the biased refereeing in 1987 and the B teams 4 years later.

Say what you will about the refs in 87, but the powerplays were pretty much even in the final 3 games, and even Victor Tikhonov called it the best hockey he'd ever seen. So it was a measure of something, I'd say.

In 1991 only the Soviets had a depleted roster, due to injuries (Kamensky), refusal to play (Irbe), but mostly players not being selected (Kovalev, P. Bure, Larionov, Fetisov, Krutov, Makarov, Moginly).

Everyone else was missing a handful of players, which is usually the case even for best-on-best. Canada was without arguably it's best forward (M. Lemieux) defensemen (Bourque) and goalie (Roy).

Indeed the only best-on-best event in which no top stars were absent was Vancouver 2010.

 

[Rekin]

Say what you will about the refs in 87, but the powerplays were pretty much even in the final 3 games, and even Victor Tikhonov called it the best hockey he'd ever seen. So it was a measure of something, I'd say.

As I remember the problem back then was rather that the Canadian refs were whistling a penalty against the Soviets for every penalty Team Canada got, while the levels of dirtiness in the plays of both teams were from different planets. Whether it was rather a cultural difference than due to the fact that there were home team refs I don't know, but in any case it would certainly help to use refs of a neutral origin. Any serious world championship would require that.

 

[Xokkeu]

I feel like this 'don't care' thing is much overrated. I have friends in the Czech republic and according to them, there are many people who like the idea of World Cup. Actually, many people like it more than Olympics because it has tradition and many people - even in Canada and USA - think that olympics should not be for professionals, but rather an opportunity for amateurs. I totally agree.

So you support the classist system that was designed to keep the working class segregated from the elite?

 

[JackSlater]

The IIHF's 100 top stories make for interesting reading.

God only knows why so many European fans disregard the Canada Cup when it provides several of the top stories including #9 which states that the 1981 Canada Cup final "was arguably the best game played by the CCCP-team in the history of Soviet hockey." Hard not to agree.

Well yes, despite many of our European friends viewing the Canada/World cup as a pointless exhibition, the precious IIHF has clearly disagreed from the beginning. Many Russians seem proud of the 1981 CC final, and rightfully so. It was the most impressive performance in the history of international hockey. You can't be selective about disregarding some tournaments and not others though.

 

[habsrule4eva3089]

The KHL has its own draft.

That's a draft? I didn't know drafting players from your own program counted? Then selecting Connor McDavid 77th overall? Yes, that draft is definitely legit.

 

[cutchemist42]

So you support the classist system that was designed to keep the working class segregated from the elite?

I'm shocked so many people still don't understand the old, true purpose of amateurism and still want that.

 

[jekoh]

That's a draft? I didn't know drafting players from your own program counted? Then selecting Connor McDavid 77th overall? Yes, that draft is definitely legit.

What's not legit about selecting Connor McDavid 77th overall?