Softest team in league history

[lastcupever75]

I think it's universally accepted the Despres trade was idiotic. He would have made this team pretty complete. As for Bort, I was pretty outspoken about the writing being on the wall for him.

There are a few guys in WBS that can replace what Bort brought, but not Despres.

If Plotnikov and Sundqvist can translate their games to the NHL, they should have a real nice mix in their fwd lineup.

I've mentioned it several times, but Dumo is their biggest hope for having a physical presence back on the blueline. Like Despres and Bort, he isn't naturally that way, but he can learn to be.

If people want more size and toughness, then pull for guys like McNeill, Ruopp and Biggs (I guess).

Biggs can handle himself and could skate up and down the ice and look better than Adams I guess. Just don't expect anything in the way of offensive production unless he has had some dramatic improvements this summer.

yeah, with sund and plot, I have hopes that we'll have some sandpaper in the line up.
I have my doubts with Dumo though in that area. although, I think he can make a good 4-5 D man at the least. And hopefully with his size he will be able to clear the front of the net a bit or learn to do so. thats going to be badly needed the way this D corps is evolving

dont know much about biggs. but if thats what he can do, then my thats my ideal 4th liner.
who give's a rat's ass if he can score. we should have plenty of that in our top 3 lines and the backend . skate, check, be defensively responsible.... all in a big body

 

[madinsomniac]

Yes they are. They are consistently in bottom 5 in hits and penalty minutes. They rely on talent to win games.

I don't understand how people are even trying to make the argument they aren't.

Its talking about two types of softness... mental softness and physical softness... Chicago is consistently not trying to out-physical guys. the players take the hits and don't retaliate, they just make the plays... we retaliate and try to play a physical game rather than just burying them on the scoreboard. For 5 years we tried to wear teams down by hitting them a lot with undersized players, and all we did was pile up injuries on our own guys. we aren't built for that, we don't need to do it at all...

 

[Terrapin]

Not only that but I find the original post sort of ironic. On the one hand complains it was the softest team he's seen in 30 years, on the other hand complains about all the "tough" players we lost this summer. Those "tough" players obviously didn't do their jobs very well / didn't make us tougher, so really who gives a crap? Despres is the one that really hurts because he had the ability to play both a skill game and a physical game, but otherwise most of those guys are dime-a-dozen acquisitions; we can pick guys like that up or develop them pretty much any time.

The system that's in place is what matters most. I don't deny you want a balance in terms of having both skill and sandpaper on your team, but it's pretty clear loading up with sandpaper doesn't automatically make your team "tough".

The system, the attitude the players carry, that stuff all matters in the "tough to play against" equation. If a team with an edge is what you're hoping for, Mike Johnston is not your coach.

What's 'ironic' about it? We had a very soft team last year. the only physical players were either traded or not retained. Therefore, our team is even softer this year, which makes us, IMO, the softest team I've seen in years.

Seriously, how many years in a row are you guys going to whine about the refs not calling penalties on all the cheap shots our stars take? You know they're going to keep doing it right? And the refs/league aren't going to enforce the rules right? Ever wonder why the entire league hates us and thinks our team is a bunch of babies?

Again, I just don't get it, and I never will. We'll lead the league in man games lost again this year, flame out in the 1st or 2nd round again this year, and all you guy will scratch your heads and wonder why.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Crosby for Gadzic

 

[systemsgo]

so we're missing a Seabrook, and Plotnikov is a little smaller than Bickell. And Sundqvist is 30 lbs heavier than Shaw.

Sadly, Seabrook also happens to be the hardest one to acquire/find out of the list.

Size doesn't matter that much to me, a small annoying guy like Gallagher who can play a decent number of minutes would be great too if we had someone like that.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Sadly, Seabrook also happens to be the hardest one to acquire/find out of the list.

Size doesn't matter that much to me, a small annoying guy like Gallagher who can play a decent number of minutes would be great too if we had someone like that.

A guy like Seabrook is pretty much what we just gave away for Lovejoy. Not Seabrook good, but that kind of player.

 

[systemsgo]

A guy like Seabrook is pretty much what we just gave away for Lovejoy. Not Seabrook good, but that kind of player.

I know. That's why it stings so much (and still), because there's next to no way to get one like that back without giving up a lot.

 

[Darth Vitale]

What's 'ironic' about it? We had a very soft team last year. the only physical players were either traded or not retained.

What's ironic is those "physical players" clearly were not very physical on a consistent basis / didn't make us a tough team. Who cares if they're gone because they didn't make an impact in the area we expected them to make an impact? It's not the reputation of the player acquisitions that matter it's the system they're put into more than anything. Mike Johnston's system will never produce a "bruiser" type team. If successful we'll look more like the Blackhawks style than the Ducks or Kings. Get used to it until the coaching staff changes.

 

[duffy9748]

Just because a team doesn't throw a ton of hits doesn't make them soft. It's laughable someone brought up penalty minutes into this discussion. It's not 1970. Nicklas Hjalmmarson is one of the toughest players in the league to play against. Players like Toews, Hossa, Keith, Kruger, Shaw, Hjalmmarson, and Oduya are incredibly tenacious and rarely lose 1 on 1 battles.

 

[StutzlesTapeJob]

Pens are at the backside of the peak "skil first trend" just like most follow brains here.

Sports typically respond to trends, good team get ahead of that. The next big trend for the nhl will be physical skill. People like two think a player is one or the other. Tbh ovie changed that. As the generation inspired by him and Sid come of age, some already are, you Will see the pens board saying that now we are more skilled but other teams are nearly as skilled across 4 lines but are also bigger and more physical.

Also, teams teed off on us this year. Every time the caps played us they injured people. Fighting isn't what we need. It's physics at the nhl level. Being disadvantaged in most collision isn't favorable.

Ducks, jackets, islanders, jets, caps - the next wave

 

[Coastal Kev]

Pens are at the backside of the peak "skil first trend" just like most follow brains here.

Sports typically respond to trends, good team get ahead of that. The next big trend for the nhl will be physical skill. People like two think a player is one or the other. Tbh ovie changed that. As the generation inspired by him and Sid come of age, some already are, you Will see the pens board saying that now we are more skilled but other teams are nearly as skilled across 4 lines but are also bigger and more physical.

Also, teams teed off on us this year. Every time the caps played us they injured people. Fighting isn't what we need. It's physics at the nhl level. Being disadvantaged in most collision isn't favorable.

Ducks, jackets, islanders, jets, caps - the next wave

Lots of truth in this post. And trying to suggest that Chicago is the formula that the Pens are trying to copy is laughable. Chicago has oodles of tough players with skill. The Pens have a handful of uber skilled players mixed with soft ham & eggers.

 

[Terrapin]

Pens are at the backside of the peak "skil first trend" just like most follow brains here.

Sports typically respond to trends, good team get ahead of that. The next big trend for the nhl will be physical skill. People like two think a player is one or the other. Tbh ovie changed that. As the generation inspired by him and Sid come of age, some already are, you Will see the pens board saying that now we are more skilled but other teams are nearly as skilled across 4 lines but are also bigger and more physical.

Also, teams teed off on us this year. Every time the caps played us they injured people. Fighting isn't what we need. It's physics at the nhl level. Being disadvantaged in most collision isn't favorable.

Ducks, jackets, islanders, jets, caps - the next wave

Very good post. Again, I keep coming back to this being a physical sport. There are high speed collisions, crashing nets, moving people from your net, scrums, etc. To design a team that is at a serious disadvantage in all of these areas is insanity. Most people aren't calling for a team of goons. But to have 6 soft puck-moving defenseman, and a bottom 6 littered with undersized softies isn't a formula for success. It hasn't been for years, yet we keep trying.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Lots of truth in this post. And trying to suggest that Chicago is the formula that the Pens are trying to copy is laughable. Chicago has oodles of tough players with skill. The Pens have a handful of uber skilled players mixed with soft ham & eggers.

Who are these "oodles" of tough players?

Bickell and Seabrook accounted for almost a quarter of the Hawks hits. Between the two of them, they had a whopping 3 fights all season.

Their lineup is even smaller now without Saad and Sharp, and those two weren't exactly bruisers.

Who are these mystery tough guys you are alluding to?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Who are these "oodles" of tough players?

Bickell and Seabrook accounted for almost a quarter of the Hawks hits. Between the two of them, they had a whopping 3 fights all season.

Their lineup is even smaller now without Saad and Sharp, and those two weren't exactly bruisers.

Who are these mystery tough guys you are alluding to?

we are pining for bruisers like 180 lb Shaw I think. I said earlier, the people saying we're softer than the Hawks would be singing guys like Perron and Hornqvist's praises for how tough they are if they were on any other team but our own. And Plotnikov and Sundqvist would be surefire wrecking balls ready to step in and cause havoc.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

we are pining for bruisers like 180 lb Shaw I think. I said earlier, the people saying we're softer than the Hawks would be singing guys like Perron and Hornqvist's praises for how tough they are if they were on any other team but our own. And Plotnikov and Sundqvist would be surefire wrecking balls ready to step in and cause havoc.

No man, it's monsters like Versteeg and Kruger that make the opposition **** their pants in pure fear.

When they are done egging skulls, Hossa and Teravainen come on and put busters in mayo jars.

I heard rumors even the Slaycity Slayers were scared to play the Hawks.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Who are these "oodles" of tough players?

Bickell and Seabrook accounted for almost a quarter of the Hawks hits. Between the two of them, they had a whopping 3 fights all season.

Their lineup is even smaller now without Saad and Sharp, and those two weren't exactly bruisers.

Who are these mystery tough guys you are alluding to?

Toughness = winning, therefore, ergo, Chicago is rock hard.

Building around the concept of "gritty" is the key in all sports. Just look how dominant the Arizona Diamondbacks are for more proof.

 

[BustaKapanen]

No man, it's monsters like Versteeg and Kruger that make the opposition **** their pants in pure fear.

When they are done egging skulls, Hossa and Teravainen come on and put busters in mayo jars.

I heard rumors even the Slaycity Slayers were scared to play the Hawks.

I think he meant being tough to play against. Guys like shaw,Hossa,hijammy,oduya,Seabrook,saad,and even Keith on a different scale because of his constantly contesting you. And his elusiveness, you never really get to let out your frustration on him. Those guys aren't going to physically impose their will on you. But they are going to beat you in most board battles, and constantly contest you. That's the kind of toughness penguins are going to have to shoot for. Obviously they don't have the big bodies to play the straight up try to beat you into submission style like the caps jets kings and blue jackets,even though they aren't as big as the others they play that same heavy style.

I elude back to the 09 cup winner penguins, I wouldn't consider them bruisers by any means. They were similar to the recent hawks team tho in the sense they hounded the puck, won a good majority of 1on1 battles, and frustrated you with their skating. That should be the goal. Being like the brusing teams I mentioned just isn't attainable, because of their current makeup. Doesn't mean that you can't still be tough to play against. Now can they attain that with this roster? Idk , some young guys could step up and indeed be that kind. The key to the defense is going to be movement, if they move the puck/possess like I think the capabilities are there. That's going to increase the tough to play against factor in itself. Being soff because they don't have a couple tom Wilson's is just dated thinking imo. There's other routes to achieve that.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think he meant being tough to play against. Guys like shaw,Hossa,hijammy,oduya,Seabrook,saad,and even Keith on a different scale because of his constantly contesting you. And his elusiveness, you never really get to let out your frustration on him. Those guys aren't going to physically impose their will on you. But they are going to beat you in most board battles, and constantly contest you. That's the kind of toughness penguins are going to have to shoot for. Obviously they don't have the big bodies to play the straight up try to beat you into submission style like the caps jets kings and blue jackets,even though they aren't as big as the others they play that same heavy style.

I get that's what some people are referring to. My point is that if that's what they are referring to, then guys like Hornqvist, Perron, Sid, Geno, Letang, Cole and Kunitz are also tough to play against.

 

[BustaKapanen]

I get that's what some people are referring to. My point is that if that's what they are referring to, then guys like Hornqvist, Perron, Sid, Geno, Letang, Cole and Kunitz are also tough to play against.

I agree, although kunitz idk anymore. He doesn't engage nearly as much as he used to. Maybe he's been hurt whatever the case is. That's my point they have a decent makeup to be that way. People citing the "big nasty" teams, it's just not realistic cuz the size just isn't there. And frankly nowadays it's not easy to find bigger guys that can actually play. Teams that have them generally keep them.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I agree, although kunitz idk anymore. He doesn't engage nearly as much as he used to. Maybe he's been hurt whatever the case is. That's my point they have a decent makeup to be that way. People citing the "big nasty" teams, it's just not realistic cuz the size just isn't there. And frankly nowadays it's not easy to find bigger guys that can actually play. Teams that have them generally keep them.

True about Kunitz. He'll be interesting this year. I really hope we keep him on the third line. Even if he's the 2nd best LW we have on day one, I think he'll be worn down playing top 6 minutes against better defenses. If we want him to be effective, I think the third line is where he at least has a reasonable chance of doing it. I just don't trust that he'll be on the third line, which will likely lead to another bad 2nd half for him. I do expect we'll see a tough to play against game from Plotnikov and Sundqvist though.

Anyway, I don't think its a big need. At least not from the forwards. The only real physical part of the game I'm worried about is a D-man to take care of our crease. I think Cole and Dumoulin could at least be serviceable a lot of the time, but we'll likely struggle with the better of the net-front guys.

 

[Shady Machine]

I agree our D is softer than it should be, but the forwards should have a decent mix of skill, speed, and grit.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I agree our D is softer than it should be, but the forwards should have a decent mix of skill, speed, and grit.

Our D isn't too bad mostly, its just missing that one big guy who can skate and play with an edge. If only. This is the most infuriating conversation every time it comes up, its just pouring lemon juice in the wound

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I think he meant being tough to play against. Guys like shaw,Hossa,hijammy,oduya,Seabrook,saad,and even Keith on a different scale because of his constantly contesting you. And his elusiveness, you never really get to let out your frustration on him. Those guys aren't going to physically impose their will on you. But they are going to beat you in most board battles, and constantly contest you. That's the kind of toughness penguins are going to have to shoot for. Obviously they don't have the big bodies to play the straight up try to beat you into submission style like the caps jets kings and blue jackets,even though they aren't as big as the others they play that same heavy style.

I elude back to the 09 cup winner penguins, I wouldn't consider them bruisers by any means. They were similar to the recent hawks team tho in the sense they hounded the puck, won a good majority of 1on1 battles, and frustrated you with their skating. That should be the goal. Being like the brusing teams I mentioned just isn't attainable, because of their current makeup. Doesn't mean that you can't still be tough to play against. Now can they attain that with this roster? Idk , some young guys could step up and indeed be that kind. The key to the defense is going to be movement, if they move the puck/possess like I think the capabilities are there. That's going to increase the tough to play against factor in itself. Being soff because they don't have a couple tom Wilson's is just dated thinking imo. There's other routes to achieve that.

Kane is every bit as bad as Kessel at playing, or should I say avoiding the boards and playing defense.

Toews, Hossa, Sharp, Saad, etc don't battle and contest for pucks any harder than Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Hornqvist and Perron.

Hornqvist works as hard as Hossa dogging the puck. The difference is when Hossa has the puck anywhere in the attacking zone, he can burn teams with his skill.

In fact, that's the one attribute most Hawks players always share and the point people are missing.

Kane
Toews
Sharp
Hossa
Saad
Teräväinen
Versteeg
Kruger

All of those guys are skilled players that can make a play and burn a team any time they are on the ice through pure skill. Now they have swapped Sharp and Saad, two of their biggest fwds, with two more small players with tremendous skill in Panarin and Dano.

The Hawks know what their identity is and JR is trying to build a team just like them with four skilled lines and talented puck movers on the back end.

All they need is 2-3 big bodies up front and they hopefully have two in Sundqvist and Plotnikov.

They should only really need a physical blueliner if things shake out with those two.

 

[radapex]

Guys like Wayne Simmons are going to give us fits.

That's more of a strength issue than anything else. Simmonds is 6'2" but only 183lbs - it's not like he's some gigantic bruiser crashing the net. The smallest defenseman on the roster right now is Letang (6'0" 201lbs); so there really isn't a single guy on there that shouldn't be able to handle him physically.

 

[plaidchuck]

That's more of a strength issue than anything else. Simmonds is 6'2" but only 183lbs - it's not like he's some gigantic bruiser crashing the net. The smallest defenseman on the roster right now is Letang (6'0" 201lbs); so there really isn't a single guy on there that shouldn't be able to handle him physically.

And yet they've gotten out muscled in the crease for years.