Softest team in league history

[mpp9]

This isn't a rebuilding team, and JR had a monumental task put before him last June. He had to retool this org on the fly and clean up the mess Shero left. He has an obvious vision of how this team should be built though and it is one the prior regime should have had from the day Crosby was drafted.

He has done an incredible turnover on the roster in 13 months. However, he can only work within the parameters of the contracts Shero gave out.

Eating Scuds contract wasn't an easy decision. That meant four years of over a million on the cap. JR tried to move him in the Kessel deal. It's not his fault Shero put a NMC in there.

There are other forces at work with Kunitz IMHO and I have little doubt JR has any personal attachment to him.

A man can only perform so many miracles in 13 months.

JR bought himself a couple more years here, IMO. He's building a damn good team. And addressed things Shero didn't in 8 years. While still keeping our most valuable assets.

 

[Pete Gas]

So where has the OP been after creating this topic?

 

[Ugene Magic]

If you're looking for a D that'll move Simmonds out of the crease you'll be looking forever. Favorite player in the NHL. Watch him all the time. List of players I've seen do a good job on him in front of the net since he refined his game into an elite net front presence is:

Chara
Gudbranson

That's it. That's the list. Even Weber can't handle him.

There are no physical, athletic, 6'6+ monsters on D in free agency or in our system. They're almost never available to draft. The last guy like that we had was Leroux, 20 years ago, and he was horrible. Simmonds will park in our crease just like he parks in the crease of 29 teams. And he'll win any battle, just like he does against 27 teams.

Way you handle him is through puck movement by the D. You don't play his game, you make him play yours.

When he's in front (which is always), it's 4 on 5 everywhere else. You have to stop the shot before it gets to where he's at, then transition the other direction quickly so he gets trapped. The guys that make him a minus (other than the two I mentioned above) are all guys that make accurate passes quickly (Stralman, McDonagh, Tyutin, Green, Markov) or guys that front a lot of shots (Greene, Salvador, Emelin, Clitsome, Orpik*).

I would very much like the Penguins to get bigger and meaner. With their depth and complimentary forwards. Expecting Dumoulin to muscle up on Simmonds is never going to work, nor is trading one of the guys we have for Polak, who also can't handle Simmonds.


*believe it or not, Simmonds practically never scores when Orpik's on the ice, going back 5 years. My guess is that's because Brooks blocks so many shots from ever getting to where Simmonds is. Obviously, Brooks never attempted to move Simmonds prior to scoring.

They were told to block shots and not move guys out. Orpik was very cost effective when he was here.

You forgot about USS Hal Gill. He was very effective on guys in front of the net to the Point Holmstrom complained about him (crosschecks to the back). After he left the Pens complained about him. (Habs/Nashville and Flyers)

Some guys are just good at it and not get called for interference. Gill had the size and weight to move anyone.

 

[Stad]

Harvey Rework from Facebook has an account on HFBoards i see.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

All good points here. Kinda crazy to think we landed Kessel and still have all of the old/expensive/anchors still. We can thank Shero for that. Once we replace them with younger/hungrier/grittier legs, we should be set up pretty well. The good thing is JR is with us on this. He wants to move the Scuds', Kunitz's, Sutter's eventually and sooner rather than later. He can pump these guys' tires in the media all he wants but the facts are out there. These guys aren't a part of JR's long/short'ish term plans.

JR bought himself a couple more years here, IMO. He's building a damn good team. And addressed things Shero didn't in 8 years. While still keeping our most valuable assets.

JR is doing what many of us have been harping on for years. He's addressed the top six issue, he has drafted skilled fwds and tapped into the Euro pool, and he signed a coveted Euro FA fwd.

He wants to build a highly skilled team. He's flat out said that, and his actions back it up.

Most of us also wanted a GM who took more risks and wasn't afraid to make moves. Sometimes it backfires, it did with the Despres trade, and it did with several of CP moves also. I still think he fleeced the Blues and that Cole trade will look better and better as time goes on. Cole can't replace what Despres brings in terms of physical size and skating, but I feel strongly he can match him production wise.

 

[mpp9]

JR is doing what many of us have been harping on for years. He's addressed the top six issue, he has drafted skilled fwds and tapped into the Euro pool, and he signed a coveted Euro FA fwd.

He wants to build a highly skilled team. He's flat out said that, and his actions back it up.

Most of us also wanted a GM who took more risks and wasn't afraid to make moves. Sometimes it backfires, it did with the Despres trade, and it did with several of CP moves also. I still think he fleeced the Blues and that Cole trade will look better and better as time goes on. Cole can't replace what Despres brings in terms of physical size and skating, but I feel strongly he can match him production wise.

He did what he was brought in for. This team is a couple pieces and some D-men development away from being an offensive powerhouse. I'll take my chances with the team built that way.

 

[Asuna]

Harvey Rework from Facebook has an account on HFBoards i see.

Oh god...that guy is a trainwreck.

 

[Zen Arcade]

Harvey Rework from Facebook has an account on HFBoards i see.

That dude has some serious issues.

 

[Terrapin]

So where has the OP been after creating this topic?

Work?

Actually I've been reading the comment, and much like I expected, the usual suspects continue to claim you don't need physical players in a physical sport, the league has changed, we're going to be the Blackhawks, etc.

They continue to ignore the fact that the Pens have a few things 'going for' them that the Hawks don't: a horrible reputation as arrogant whiners, and star players with significant injury histories.

So like I say every year when we continue to get smaller and softer, 'we'll see'. I have a feeling though that a year from now I'll be posting the same thing, and the same guys will blame all our failures on some 4th line scrub.

 

[Pick87your71Poison]

Work?

Actually I've been reading the comment, and much like I expected, the usual suspects continue to claim you don't need physical players in a physical sport, the league has changed, we're going to be the Blackhawks, etc.

They continue to ignore the fact that the Pens have a few things 'going for' them that the Hawks don't: a horrible reputation as arrogant whiners, and star players with significant injury histories.

So like I say every year when we continue to get smaller and softer, 'we'll see'. I have a feeling though that a year from now I'll be posting the same thing, and the same guys will blame all our failures on some 4th line scrub.

Ok we will bring in 6 Rinaldo's and then at least we can lose in an entirely different way...

Good argument

 

[plaidchuck]

The team is soft, but that needs to be fixed systematically.

 

[drpepper]

What is the balance level of a team being "soft"?

Crosby isn't. Malkin isn't. Letang, Hornqvist, Perron, Kunitz, Dupuis, Cole, Sundqvist, Plotnikov aren't soft. They are all physical players (boardwork, puck protection, aggressiveness, tenacious, strength, checking players, etc). (And I am not interested in comments on Kunitz)

Scuderi, Lovejoy, and Maatta have never struck me as particularly physical, but I wouldn't say they were "soft" either. Somewhere in that middle area where they don't initiate but can hold their own if they have to.

That leaves Sutter, Bennett, Kessel, and Dumoulin as being players that seem to eschew physicality. Do four players define a team as "soft"?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

What is the balance level of a team being "soft"?

Crosby isn't. Malkin isn't. Letang, Hornqvist, Perron, Kunitz, Dupuis, Cole, Sundqvist, Plotnikov aren't soft. They are all physical players (boardwork, puck protection, aggressiveness, tenacious, strength, checking players, etc). (And I am not interested in comments on Kunitz)

Scuderi, Lovejoy, and Maatta have never struck me as particularly physical, but I wouldn't say they were "soft" either. Somewhere in that middle area where they don't initiate but can hold their own if they have to.

That leaves Sutter, Bennett, Kessel, and Dumoulin as being players that seem to eschew physicality. Do four players define a team as "soft"?

Depends on your interpretation I guess. A guy who can take a hit or protect the puck is fine, but who are the legitimately physical players on this team?

We're a relatively small team with few physical players - and our most prominent exceptions have yet to set foot on NA ice and show they can translate their physical games to the NHL. Chicago's been given as an example of a "soft" team who excels, but we don't even have a Seabrook or Bickell. That isn't a DEFCON level issue, but it's something that may be a concern this year.

 

[Fordy]

(boardwork, puck protection, aggressiveness, tenacious, strength, checking players, etc). (And I am not interested in comments on Kunitz)

shouldn't have listed him then lmao

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

JR bought himself a couple more years here, IMO. He's building a damn good team. And addressed things Shero didn't in 8 years. While still keeping our most valuable assets.

I'm not sure what else people expected at this point. JR need to wave his magic wand more I guess...

Work?

Actually I've been reading the comment, and much like I expected, the usual suspects continue to claim you don't need physical players in a physical sport, the league has changed, we're going to be the Blackhawks, etc.

They continue to ignore the fact that the Pens have a few things 'going for' them that the Hawks don't: a horrible reputation as arrogant whiners, and star players with significant injury histories.

So like I say every year when we continue to get smaller and softer, 'we'll see'. I have a feeling though that a year from now I'll be posting the same thing, and the same guys will blame all our failures on some 4th line scrub.

Sort of like the usual suspects whine about the team being soft every season, yet they can't see the real problems. Then ignore how Crosby had his skull egged, Malkin was still banged up and the Isles debacle happened when the team had a litany of physical players and an enforcer to boot.

The comical thing is I never see you guys offer up any realistic solutions to find these physical players. There damn good reasons why, but play along if you want.

And uh, this team is a lot closer to being like the Hawks than the Kings.

 

[Terrapin]

What is the balance level of a team being "soft"?

Crosby isn't. Malkin isn't. Letang, Hornqvist, Perron, Kunitz, Dupuis, Cole, Sundqvist, Plotnikov aren't soft. They are all physical players (boardwork, puck protection, aggressiveness, tenacious, strength, checking players, etc). (And I am not interested in comments on Kunitz)

Scuderi, Lovejoy, and Maatta have never struck me as particularly physical, but I wouldn't say they were "soft" either. Somewhere in that middle area where they don't initiate but can hold their own if they have to.

That leaves Sutter, Bennett, Kessel, and Dumoulin as being players that seem to eschew physicality. Do four players define a team as "soft"?

Or, to look at it another way....

Sid, Geno, and Letang. Do you really want to see them banging bodies, battling along the boards, getting involved in scrums (and yes, that kind of stuff will happen), etc? Given their injury and concussion history, I'd rather not.

Kunitz only actually gives an above average effort several games a year.

Dupuis is what, 39 years old and coming off back to back lost seasons.

Sundqvist and Plotnikov have never stepped foot on NHL ice. Neither are even a guaranteed lock to be on the team.

Horny, Perron, and Cole can play with an edge and are physical.

 

[steveg]

That leaves Sutter, Bennett, Kessel, and Dumoulin as being players that seem to eschew physicality. Do four players define a team as "soft"?

While I basically agree with most of your post (not quoted above), IMO it's not a correct characterization to say that BB "eschews physicality..."

He is not the most physical player, but more than once I've been pleasantly surprised by his willingness at times to throw the body around a bit (effectiveness notwithstanding). I have at least seen him throw a few decent body checks, whereas I can't say the same for Sutter, Dumoulin, Martin, etc. I just don't feel he belongs in any group that is said to "eschew physicality."

Not to nit-pick, but I wanted to add that opinion.

 

[Terrapin]

I'm not sure what else people expected at this point. JR need to wave his magic wand more I guess...



Sort of like the usual suspects whine about the team being soft every season, yet they can't see the real problems. Then ignore how Crosby had his skull egged, Malkin was still banged up and the Isles debacle happened when the team had a litany of physical players and an enforcer to boot.

The comical thing is I never see you guys offer up any realistic solutions to find these physical players. There a damn good reason why, but play along if you want.

And uh, this team is a lot closer to being like the Hawks than the Kings.

Yep, and Mario was so heartbroken over that Isles game that he changed the entire makeup of a team that was a year removed from the Cup.

Plenty of solutions have been offered up (and ignored). Namely bringing in a physical 4th liner and/or a physical defenseman. But guys would rather see the Brian Rust's of the world pot 4 goals on the 4th line, than a big physical player that only scores 2 goals.

Your 3rd point I agree with, and that's the direction we should continue to go. However, that doesn't mean we need to completely ignore physical, tough players at all costs.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yep, and Mario was so heartbroken over that Isles game that he changed the entire makeup of a team that was a year removed from the Cup.

Plenty of solutions have been offered up (and ignored). Namely bringing in a physical 4th liner and/or a physical defenseman. But guys would rather see the Brian Rust's of the world pot 4 goals on the 4th line, than a big physical player that only scores 2 goals.

Your 3rd point I agree with, and that's the direction we should continue to go. However, that doesn't mean we need to completely ignore physical, tough players at all costs.

Well Mario could have said ok **** it lets kill them with speed and skill, show the league how it's done. Instead he let Shero pursue the convoluted "vision" he had sharing a bong with his scouts.

People seem to want to shout about this team not being physical as the reason for their lack of success, but the big reality is they have severely lacked skill for years outside of Crosby, Malkin and Letang. Sadly, that was by design, it wasn't an accident.

And seriously, telling me about them getting some physical fourth liner makes me roll my eyes. That's how you end up with Craig Adams and Tanner Glass. Do you really want to suffer through **** like that again?

There are a lot of untalented physical fourth liners out there, the good ones like Martin and Clutterbuck aren't available.

So talk to me about real solutions. Tell me a realistic option for a physical third pivot. Tell me realistic options for physical, skilled top six wingers.

 

[Pick87your71Poison]

Yep, and Mario was so heartbroken over that Isles game that he changed the entire makeup of a team that was a year removed from the Cup.

Plenty of solutions have been offered up (and ignored). Namely bringing in a physical 4th liner and/or a physical defenseman. But guys would rather see the Brian Rust's of the world pot 4 goals on the 4th line, than a big physical player that only scores 2 goals.

Your 3rd point I agree with, and that's the direction we should continue to go. However, that doesn't mean we need to completely ignore physical, tough players at all costs.

Put actual names and deals out there... stop saying they have existed and ignored and then going back to vague/general ideas again which was the complaint to begin with...

 

[The Greatest 101]

How many hawks players will get overpowered along boards like Sutter or Bennett?

 

[The Greatest 101]

Why people keep saying Dumoulin is soft btw?

 

[Ogrezilla]

How many hawks players will get overpowered along boards like Sutter or Bennett?

Kane, Versteeg and Richards come to mind.

 

[Shady Machine]

Packaging Pouliot and Kunitz for youth, speed and size would be another move he could make.

With those two moves, you could change the entire outlook for this club. Instead, we get Kessel and it's pretty much the status quo for the organization. Is there hope that Sundqvist and Plotnikov will play valued minutes? Of course. But I have also followed this team long enough to know that Duper will be with Sid, Kuni will be in the top 6 and Bennett and Oskar will battle to get even a few minutes on the fourth line.

Stop it with trading Pouliot. The defense will blow ass at moving the puck and have no chance of a young top 4 guy if you move Pouliot. I've explained countless times why moving Pouliot and Kunitz for Yakupov makes no sense.

If you can show me a Pouliot for xxx trade and a D roster that doesn't blow, please do but I highly doubt you can.

 

[Shady Machine]

JR bought himself a couple more years here, IMO. He's building a damn good team. And addressed things Shero didn't in 8 years. While still keeping our most valuable assets.

I don't know if I'd go that far. He blew the Despres trade and wasted a 2nd and a 4th on Winnik.