Softest team in league history

[drpepper]

How many hawks players will get overpowered along boards like Sutter or Bennett?

Still on the team?

TT, P Kane, Panarin, Versteeg, Daley, Rundblad, and TVR

People keep using "soft" and physical but only want those terms to mean exactly what they want. It seems being physical isn't good boardwork, puck protection, strength on the puck, body checking, etc.

Also Dumoulin should be able to withstand physical play, but his time in the NHL has shown that he avoids contact. Maybe that will change. I find soft to be a terrible, nonspecific descriptor.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

People are focusing on the word 'soft' as semantics to ignore the main point of this thread.

If a player isn't soft during play on the ice, but then skates away when our top player is getting physically manhandled, then that's a major problem...soft or no soft.

Our issues in the physicality department are:

- Crosby and Malkin get no help from their teammates when they get worked over, for the most part. Kessel now joins this situation.

- Fleury can have long-lasting relationships with the league's best front-of-the-net forwards because of the amount of time those guys spend right in front of him. Hopefully they use Listerine.

- We don't have a line that wears down opponents, or get under people's skin, and generally annoy, etc.


Now, the third one is the least important at this time. We're looking for offensive fourth liners now, which I'm down with. Any decision to add offense is one I agree with. AND, Farnham could totally be the best agitator in the NHL if we gave him the opportunity to do so. So the third one I'm OK with.

For the first two, it goes back to what we've been saying for a long time now: we need a crease-clearing No. 6 defenseman who can serve and protect. There are two young players who I assume are readily available because neither is in their current NHL team's plans for 2015-16: Dylan McIlrath of the Rangers and Jarred Tinordi of the Habs.

Trade Kunitz for either, or maybe a Sutter for the player plus a pick. That would help rectify the situation a great deal.

A third option would be to sign Brett Bellemore as a UFA.

 

[drpepper]

People are focusing on the word 'soft' as semantics to ignore the main point of this thread.

If a player isn't soft during play on the ice, but then skates away when our top player is getting physically manhandled, then that's a major problem...soft or no soft.

Our issues in the physicality department are:

- Crosby and Malkin get no help from their teammates when they get worked over, for the most part. Kessel now joins this situation.

- Fleury can have long-lasting relationships with the league's best front-of-the-net forwards because of the amount of time those guys spend right in front of him. Hopefully they use Listerine.

- We don't have a line that wears down opponents, or get under people's skin, and generally annoy, etc.


Now, the third one is the least important at this time. We're looking for offensive fourth liners now, which I'm down with. Any decision to add offense is one I agree with. AND, Farnham could totally be the best agitator in the NHL if we gave him the opportunity to do so. So the third one I'm OK with.

For the first two, it goes back to what we've been saying for a long time now: we need a crease-clearing No. 6 defenseman who can serve and protect. There are two young players who I assume are readily available because neither is in their current NHL team's plans for 2015-16: Dylan McIlrath of the Rangers and Jarred Tinordi of the Habs.

Trade Kunitz for either, or maybe a Sutter for the player plus a pick. That would help rectify the situation a great deal.

A third option would be to sign Brett Bellemore as a UFA.

The main point of the post is in the title.

Most of the Pens players are not soft. It isn't a defensible opinion. There is no way to make Crosby or Malkin or Hornqvist or Letang soft.

It's one thing if there are specific areas of physicality that you feel need to be addressed. I don't agree. It's an entirely different thing to make a blanket statement about the whole team using a non-descript term. Having some areas of need in terms of physicality doesn't make the team "soft."

 

[Your Boy Troy]

Well Mario could have said ok **** it lets kill them with speed and skill, show the league how it's done. Instead he let Shero pursue the convoluted "vision" he had sharing a bong with his scouts.

People seem to want to shout about this team not being physical as the reason for their lack of success, but the big reality is they have severely lacked skill for years outside of Crosby, Malkin and Letang. Sadly, that was by design, it wasn't an accident.

And seriously, telling me about them getting some physical fourth liner makes me roll my eyes. That's how you end up with Craig Adams and Tanner Glass. Do you really want to suffer through **** like that again?

There are a lot of untalented physical fourth liners out there, the good ones like Martin and Clutterbuck aren't available.

So talk to me about real solutions. Tell me a realistic option for a physical third pivot. Tell me realistic options for physical, skilled top six wingers.

I can't think of any posters that are pro-toughness who were advocating for Tanner Glass or Craig Adams on the roster. That's on the management being dumb.

Tanner Glass was a good middleweight fighter who could occasionally dish out a huge hit. Glass was making too much money for a player in his role; wasn't willing enough, and was a mediocre player.

Who the **** ever wanted Craig Adams? DearDiary; that's it. Horrible undersized player who sucked at fighting.

We're talking about players like Ryan Reaves, Matt Martin, Tom Wilson, Nicolas Deslauriers, Patrick Bordeleau, Luke Gazdic, Anthony Peluso; players who are tough as nails and can play a regular shift.

Reaves, Wilson, Martin, and Deslauriers are most likely worth too much. Bordeleau and Peluso could be had at a small price. Hell, maybe even for someone like Kunitz; could get a draft pick in return as well which is an added bonus.

Ideally, this would be my fourth-line:

Bordeleau - Sundqvist - Bernier

Boom, that's a real fourth-line that is capable of chipping in offensively. Not only that; it's big, tough, and mobile. Would create havoc on the forecheck. All three players can be very successful along the walls. Bordeleau and Bernier aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. That's real balance.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

The main point of the post is in the title.

Most of the Pens players are not soft. It isn't a defensible opinion. There is no way to make Crosby or Malkin or Hornqvist or Letang soft.

It's one thing if there are specific areas of physicality that you feel need to be addressed. I don't agree. It's an entirely different thing to make a blanket statement about the whole team using a non-descript term. Having some areas of need in terms of physicality doesn't make the team "soft."

You claim most Pens players are not soft, then list 4.

Roster is 22, or less depending on our cap shenanigans!

 

[Asuna]

Speaking of DearDiary, I havent' seen him here in awhile. Guess with Adams gone, it makes sense.

 

[tom_servo]

Speaking of DearDiary, I havent' seen him here in awhile. Guess with Adams gone, it makes sense.

And where's Siller the Thriller? I mean, we even have a new Thriller on the team.

 

[mpp9]

I don't know if I'd go that far. He blew the Despres trade and wasted a 2nd and a 4th on Winnik.

Alot more excuses were thrown Shero's way despite never building the team properly. He was given 8 years here. Simon Despres ain't changing my view that JR is a better GM for this team.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Alot more excuses were thrown Shero's way despite never building the team properly. He was given 8 years here. Simon Despres ain't changing my view that JR is a better GM for this team.

He probably is better for this team, and is probably better overall, but he still may not be the right man for the job.

For me, the Kessel trades offers hope. But we still need cap space and still waiting for the salary dump trade.

Rutherford has proven time and time again that he can make the splashy, BIG move.

What about the right move at the right time, though?

 

[Shady Machine]

For the first two, it goes back to what we've been saying for a long time now: we need a crease-clearing No. 6 defenseman who can serve and protect. There are two young players who I assume are readily available because neither is in their current NHL team's plans for 2015-16: Dylan McIlrath of the Rangers and Jarred Tinordi of the Habs.

What good will a crease clearing number 6 do when they aren't good enough to be playing against the top lines in the league? I mean I guess they can play top PK minutes, but at even strength, that number 6 isn't out there against the top net front guys in the league anyway. I do think our D could use a solid shutdown guy with snarl, but I'm not prioritizing that on the 3rd pair when we have 6 3rd pairing Dmen right now.

 

[Shady Machine]

And where's Siller the Thriller? I mean, we even have a new Thriller on the team.

Bring Godard Back is Siller the Thriller.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

What good will a crease clearing number 6 do when they aren't good enough to be playing against the top lines in the league? I mean I guess they can play top PK minutes, but at even strength, that number 6 isn't out there against the top net front guys in the league anyway. I do think our D could use a solid shutdown guy with snarl, but I'm not prioritizing that on the 3rd pair when we have 6 3rd pairing Dmen right now.

Yeah but a lot of those third pairing guys are alike. We need something different back there.

Bring in a McIlrath or a Tinordi. Who knows, maybe they're more than a No. 6. We'll never know until we try.

 

[mpp9]

He probably is better for this team, and is probably better overall, but he still may not be the right man for the job.

For me, the Kessel trades offers hope. But we still need cap space and still waiting for the salary dump trade.

Rutherford has proven time and time again that he can make the splashy, BIG move.

What about the right move at the right time, though?

I mean, the team needs to develop its D-men and try and dump Scuds. Those are basically the only things that need to happen. That is, unless things come together very quickly, and they're looking like a favorite to come out of the East. I doubt it.

I agree it's better to dump Kunitz sooner than later, but I think he'll be at least decent next season. It's more about Sid and the coaching staff pandering to him over a possible diamond in the rough in Plotnikov.

I dont' think this fan base has any right to to talk **** about Rutherford right now. He's given this team a legit chance to win another Cup in the next few years.

 

[Shady Machine]

Alot more excuses were thrown Shero's way despite never building the team properly. He was given 8 years here. Simon Despres ain't changing my view that JR is a better GM for this team.

I didn't say that. My point was that for me, getting Kessel doesn't erase the bad moves he made. Imagine if you undid the Despres-Lovejoy deal. We would be feeling a hell of a lot better about our D pairings:

Maatta-Letang
Pouliot/Cole-Despres
Cole/Pouliot-Dumo/Scuds

 

[Shady Machine]

Yeah but a lot of those third pairing guys are alike. We need something different back there.

Bring in a McIlrath or a Tinordi. Who knows, maybe they're more than a No. 6. We'll never know until we try.

Sure but then you need to move out Scuds or one of the other guys for something of value. I'm cool with those 2 because they are young and cheap. I can't really argue with you there. Just pointing out that those guys don't fix our crease clearing issues against the Simmonds of the world.

 

[mpp9]

I didn't say that. My point was that for me, getting Kessel doesn't erase the bad moves he made. Imagine if you undid the Despres-Lovejoy deal. We would be feeling a hell of a lot better about our D pairings:

Maatta-Letang
Pouliot/Cole-Despres
Cole/Pouliot-Dumo/Scuds

I was never as high on Despres as others here. I think his head doesn't match his skills. But he certainly fared well in Anaheim so far. He could make us look even sillier. It was more about asset management for me. Imagine if we moved him for a young cost controlled forward? Then you can pack Kunitz's bags for him and open up cap room there.

 

[drpepper]

You claim most Pens players are not soft, then list 4.

Roster is 22, or less depending on our cap shenanigans!

I already listed them, but I will do it again.

I don't consider physicality or toughness to be only hitting. I think it includes: hits, boardwork, strength on the puck, puck protection, body positioning, checking, mental toughness, and a appropriate unwillingness to put up with **** either to one's self or teammates.

In contrast, I think softness has to do with avoiding physical play either in open space (body positioning, puck protection) or along the boards.

Physical: Crosby, Malkin, Hornqvist, Perron, Letang, Kunitz, Dupuis, Plotnikov, Sundqvist, Letang, Cole

Average (not overtly physical but doesn't avoid contact): Scuderi, Maatta, Lovejoy

Not physical: Sutter, Kessel, Bennett (unless he's better after an off-season of training and no knee braces), Dumoulin (until he proves otherwise)

I am not sure which other prospects or players will make the team.

Now if fans or the team is looking for a specific kind of physicality (for example, crease clearing #6/7D) then no the team doesn't have that specific player or type of physicality (although I think Dumoulin could do it.)

 

[Ogrezilla]

Now if fans or the team is looking for a specific kind of physicality (for example, crease clearing #6/7D) then no the team doesn't have that specific player or type of physicality (although I think Dumoulin could do it.)

so can cole

 

[Gurglesons]

Not physical: Sutter, Kessel, Bennett (unless he's better after an off-season of training and no knee braces), Dumoulin (until he proves otherwise)\)

Bennett was actually playing notably more physical last season, even in his injuries he was digging in corners and playing the boards well.

 

[mpp9]

The only soft players on this roster bring other tangible qualities to the team. Sutter is our best defensive forward by a large margin and has some game changing ability with his short handed goals. Kessel is an elite scorer. Maatta is a top pairing D if he can stay healthy. DP is a PP QB stud.

Pretty much Beau Bennett's the only guy who could be labeled as soft and not bringing anything else to the table right now to make up for it.

 

[Fordy]

bennett has always been a physical player except for stretches when he was visibly and obviously trying to avoid injury. his boardplay has always been one of his strongest attributes and you don't succeed at it as often as he does while being "soft"

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'm sure the Rangers would gladly trade us Tanner Glass.

And for the people whining about grit, I partly want this to happen if it weren't for the fact that I am also a fan of this team.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

bennett has always been a physical player except for stretches when he was visibly and obviously trying to avoid injury. his boardplay has always been one of his strongest attributes and you don't succeed at it as often as he does while being "soft"

He's always tried to throw hits, but it was clear he wasn't strong enough to really make a difference with that, but I have never seen him shy away from that kind of game. Last year, he just seemed reluctant because of his knees, but even the year he hurt his wrist (again), he threw his body around. With added strength, he will make that more noticeable in his game.

I want Rust & Sundqvist to make the 4th line with Farnham to add speed, grit, and some rough stuff there too.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

bennett has always been a physical player except for stretches when he was visibly and obviously trying to avoid injury. his boardplay has always been one of his strongest attributes and you don't succeed at it as often as he does while being "soft"

Yep. People are confusing "soft" with "injury prone".

I already listed them, but I will do it again.

I don't consider physicality or toughness to be only hitting. I think it includes: hits, boardwork, strength on the puck, puck protection, body positioning, checking, mental toughness, and a appropriate unwillingness to put up with **** either to one's self or teammates.

In contrast, I think softness has to do with avoiding physical play either in open space (body positioning, puck protection) or along the boards.

Physical: Crosby, Malkin, Hornqvist, Perron, Letang, Kunitz, Dupuis, Plotnikov, Sundqvist, Letang, Cole

Average (not overtly physical but doesn't avoid contact): Scuderi, Maatta, Lovejoy

Not physical: Sutter, Kessel, Bennett (unless he's better after an off-season of training and no knee braces), Dumoulin (until he proves otherwise)

I am not sure which other prospects or players will make the team.

Now if fans or the team is looking for a specific kind of physicality (for example, crease clearing #6/7D) then no the team doesn't have that specific player or type of physicality (although I think Dumoulin could do it.)

Letang's just that damn physical.

As for your definition, too many of the players you listed have too few of your "physical" characteristics. If they possess one or two of those attributes then they qualify as physical players? Seems exceptionally broad to me.

By that very forgiving standard, are there any soft teams in the NHL?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I don't see this team as soft. It's a style of play thing and health.