Softest team in league history

[Penguinator]

I can still picture Engo destroying Lucic even though it didn't help winning that series against the Bruins whatsoever.

 

[Ogrezilla]

That's the thing. Physical guys who can play cost money.

And he can't even play all that well.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

And he can't even play all that well.

I think he took a lot of flak because he was logjamming some highly touted prospects. Engo was a solid bottom pair defenseman, IMO.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I think he took a lot of flak because he was logjamming some highly touted prospects. Engo was a solid bottom pair defenseman, IMO.

I would have been happy to keep Engo as a 4th line winger, but not at the contract he got. You really shouldn't have your nuclear option fighter as a D man.

Sure we can use more toughness. The Hawks were universally blasted for their lack of toughness when Orpik injured Toews. But they're good at turning the other cheek.

We're not good at either. So yeah, this year will be a bit of an adventure.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think he took a lot of flak because he was logjamming some highly touted prospects. Engo was a solid bottom pair defenseman, IMO.

Because of his physicality and fighting, sure, he's a fine 3rd pairing guy. But I don't like the idea of paying 3rd pairing guys 3 million dollars. Especially since its hard to have your fighter play D, it just leaves you in a bad spot any time he fights.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I agree with you 100 percent Terrapin. That incident last year with Rinaldo should have raised a red flag with our coaching staff or front office. It gets harder to win a cup when one of your stars are hurt. It has happen with Sid, Malkin and even Letang last year. Granted they had nothing to do with any cheap shots, but Teams around the league know how to play us. Tough, dirty and try to get us off our game ( Philly). That is why I loved Godard. When a player got out of line he knew what to do. How many minutes do our 4th line players get? So having a 4th line of Farnham, Sundquist and I would love to get a guy like Clifford to me would be better than Wilson, Sundquist and Rust.

What did Godard do while the Isles were assaulting Talbot, exactly?

 

[tom_servo]

Sure we can use more toughness. The Hawks were universally blasted for their lack of toughness when Orpik injured Toews. But they're good at turning the other cheek.

We're not good at either. So yeah, this year will be a bit of an adventure.

Yep. There's the rub. And our power play developed a bad habit of not making them pay.

 

[Speed Kills]

Asham, Engelland and Rupp were all playing when Crosby got his head blown up, and again the following game when he got his head blown up again. Cooke certainly wasn't worried about what Boston's tough guys would do to him when he wrecked Savard or any of the other guys he hurt. It never stopped Orpik from making a hit. Kronwall has made an art out of blowing people up and then drawing an instigator penalty. There is no reason to believe Rinaldo or Doan wouldn't have made the same hits on Letang because Scott was on the bench.

I remember the first hit on Crosby and I don't think there was any intention to hurt him, but that is just my pov. The Doan hit on letang was just a freak accident. I don't think any tough guy can prevent injuries coming from those types of hockey plays. Now the Rinaldo hit on Letang is a completely different story. That was intentional and I feel that if the team had someone to respond or someone that will go after one of their star players, it will stop the nonsense. But, we had none one and he goes on and challenges the bench the next game because he knows that there is no one there to stop him. I know we don't agree and I won't try to change your mind. But, I do feel that a player like Scott has that nastiness to have prevented that hit. He is a player that only has one role in this league and I think he does it well. But I agree with the rest of you that he is not a good hockey player

 

[Ogrezilla]

Did guys like that ever stop Cooke? Thornton and Lucic (who was even on the ice at the time) didn't dissuade Cooke from blowing up Savard, just like they didn't stop Orpik from blowing up Eriksson. A guy like Rinaldo does not care who is on the other team. A guy like Downie is more likely to cause hesitation than a guy like Scott because Downie is far more likely to counter with a cheap shot on their stars than Scott is.

 

[Zen Arcade]

Seems like a lot of the "skill only" crowd is trying to paint the other side with a pretty broad brush here.

I don't think the overwhelming majority of us want to turn the team into a goon squad. We could just use some more size and snarl than we already have, which is pretty reasonable. Those attributes aren't everything, but I think it'd be foolish to ignore them completely.

This is pretty much where I stand as well. It doesn't need to be an either or situation, we can be a skilled team while still having some grit and tenacity. There's a big difference between wanting some good forechecking forwards to wear down the other team's defensemen and a tough, crease clearing defenseman and employing a bunch of plugs like Glass and Adams.

It's too bad they couldn't have gotten Devane instead of Biggs in the Kessel trade. The jury is still out on Biggs, but Devane is also a huge guy with a real mean streak that skates and handles the puck well enough to take a regular shift. I think he was viewed as one of "Burke's guys" sort of like Biggs and kind of shoved to the back burner with the Marlies. It'll be interesting to see if either of them can bounce back with their new teams. Devane's a pretty unique player, he just has that "oh ****" presence about him. I'm glad he went to Nashville instead of Philly or the Isles.

 

[Speed Kills]

What did Godard do while the Isles were assaulting Talbot, exactly?

The only way I see that game not getting out of control was sitting talbot. Hindsight is 20/20. I Wish Engo and Rupp wouldn't have been kicked out to try to even out the tuff guys that game. But, I do like the fact that Godard came of the bench to protect Johnson.

 

[tom_servo]

Did guys like that ever stop Cooke? Thornton and Lucic (who was even on the ice at the time) didn't dissuade Cooke from blowing up Savard, just like they didn't stop Orpik from blowing up Eriksson. A guy like Rinaldo does not care who is on the other team. A guy like Downie is more likely to cause hesitation than a guy like Scott because Downie is far more likely to counter with a cheap shot on their stars than Scott is.

We don't want prevention. We want revenge.

 

[Zen Arcade]

We don't want prevention. We want revenge.

There's that whole visceral "eye for an eye" mentality that creeps in sometimes, I think that's human.

I'm not necessarily looking for either of those, although prevention would be an unlikely bonus. I'd like them to be a team like they were in 08 and 09, one that initiated instead of reacting to things. Those teams had just the right mix and skill and grit.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The only way I see that game not getting out of control was sitting talbot. Hindsight is 20/20. I Wish Engo and Rupp wouldn't have been kicked out to try to even out the tuff guys that game. But, I do like the fact that Godard came of the bench to protect Johnson.

Guys like Rinaldo are stupid. They are going to cheap shot the Letangs and Crosbys no matter what. It's why they stay in the league. Some people around here don't seem to grasp that and it's why goons are being phased out.

If you want a physical player like Kane that intimidates other players with the way he hits and fights, I get that. But those guys are hard to come by.

This team needs 12 guys that can play the game. They don't need goons or "tough" guys like Tanner Glass.

 

[plaidchuck]

God this again? Enforcers are done in this league. kaput, finished.

 

[Zen Arcade]

"It'd be nice to have some players that can contribute while playing a physical game."

"Omg you want 5 Tanner Glasses!!!! Whargarble rabble rabble rabble!!!!"

edit: Not related to Jiggy's post, just the general false equivalency that happens every time this comes up.

 

[PensPlz]

God this again? Enforcers are done in this league. kaput, finished.

I'd rather have a league with the classic enforcer than a league with Zac Rinaldos.... but that's not the world we live in anymore.

 

[Coach Travis]

I don't think there's ever been a softer team than the 2008 & 2009 Detroit Red Wings. Their only physical player was Kronwall.

 

[lastcupever75]

Yeah, the only 'grit' last years team had was either traded or not retained. None was added.

Guys bringing up Chicago? That team is much bigger and more physical than the Pens. You wanna talk Red Wings back in the day? Ok, I'll give you that they were pretty much an anomaly, especially in the late 90s early 00s era. However, they still had guys like Darren McCarty, and didn't have 3 or 4 superstars with significant injury histories.

And to your final point about responding on the score sheet. Ok, we've been trying that for the last 5 years. How's it worked out? Even a great PP is only scoring 1-4 or 5 times. Someone knocking the Rinaldo's of the league on their ass when they start taking runs will do much more good for this team than a random PP goal in a meaningless game in November.

But hey, what do I know? Let's keep trying the small and meek method. Maybe it'll work one of these years....

and add what someone quoted on the 1st page. they are tenacious and fast. I dont see a lot of that tenacity for our team in recent years. maybe this year will be different.
and edit. 2 of those cups were won with guys like billick, Buff, bollig playing. even in the playoffs (re bollig)

But i'm not sure why everyone points to chicago anyway. it wasnt that long ago that WE actually won the cup with physical play. right here in pittsburgh
we have evidence right in front of our damn faces of how that kind of line up compliments sid and geno

we wore that so called "great puck possession team" down. every time lidstrom had to go back to get the puck he seemed like he had one eye out for cooke

 

[lastcupever75]

I remember the first hit on Crosby and I don't think there was any intention to hurt him, but that is just my pov. The Doan hit on letang was just a freak accident. I don't think any tough guy can prevent injuries coming from those types of hockey plays. Now the Rinaldo hit on Letang is a completely different story. That was intentional and I feel that if the team had someone to respond or someone that will go after one of their star players, it will stop the nonsense. But, we had none one and he goes on and challenges the bench the next game because he knows that there is no one there to stop him. r

I agree with you. tough hits/cheap shots happen. that rinaldo hit was premeditated

 

[lastcupever75]

Who the **** on the Flyers is suppose to be scary again? Rinaldo was a punk ass who was going to take cheap shots anyway. The ******* is gone so...

Who exactly are these big scaries on the Flyers they have to worry about?

It's all mental BS. Flyers are not a tough team.

not scary, but they have guys that will play physical/cheap. simmonds, the shenn's

and as far a a enforcer/loose cannon?
they'll find someone
they always do...its philly

 

[madinsomniac]

It's debatable, and can't really be proven. Would Rinaldo run amok if he knew he'd get an ass kicking? Maybe maybe not. I seem to recall having Macintyre in the lineup against Ottawa a few years ago saved Orpik from possibly getting 'Thortoned' by Neil.

No it really isn't... ever since paychecks in the NHL made bit players rich enough to not need a second job, enforcers have been worthless for anything but entertainment. No talent hacks like Rinaldo are willing to take a couple punches from the toughest guy in the league to earn that money... especially when they can turtle.

the unfortunate truth is if you offered a million dollars for someone to get punched in the head a few times a year for the next couple years, you will have lots of takers... regardless of how brutal the fighter you get to punch them is... and some of these ****** earn a lot more than that.

The league has to get the cheap stuff out by banning guys who repeatedly do intentional stuff to hurt players, but as long as they keep letting guys like this play for paychecks, the league will suffer.

 

[Penguinator]

You want tough at all cost? (or hardly any cost at all in this case), bring this giant back, hey maybe he's up to 300 pounds as of now, more bone shatterin' power = all the better!

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Enforcers (see also: useless players in a beer league) would totally have stopped Rinaldo from running Letang, or Doan from shoving him back-first into the boards.

Just like they stopped the Isles debacle a few years ago from ever happening.

Wake up. NHLers are grown men, and if they're gonna be cavemen like Rinaldo, they're not gonna be afraid of consequences. Period. No amount of Godards, Laraques, MacIntyres, etc. are ever going to stop them. Ever. Just like Lucic, McQuaid, Thornton, or any of the other Big Bad Bruins didn't deter or stop Cooke from ending Savard's career.

Stop. Enforcers are dead. Get with the times.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

"It'd be nice to have some players that can contribute while playing a physical game."

"Omg you want 5 Tanner Glasses!!!! Whargarble rabble rabble rabble!!!!"

edit: Not related to Jiggy's post, just the general false equivalency that happens every time this comes up.

I actually know people who think they are missing Glass' toughness. People are brainwashed so easily.

not scary, but they have guys that will play physical/cheap. simmonds, the shenn's

and as far a a enforcer/loose cannon?
they'll find someone
they always do...its philly

When Simmonds and the Schenns are the big nasties we are worrying about... I mean seriously?

The Pens can always throw Farnham in the lineup for Philly and let him go after their stars. It's not like there is some rule agt the Pens doing it. Rust and Uher can do it as well, but they can actually play hockey.

Again, I'd love to have a Kane in the lineup, but there are a limited amount of these guys around. I see people whining about the Pens being soft, but they just whine. They don't offer solutions. The rare time these posters do, it's some goon or halfwit.

You don't find these players in FA because their teams lock them up, or in the rare cases they hit the market, they get overpaid.

The leftovers are guys with warts. Usually big warts like Downie. This is why the org ended up with Adams and Glass.

You need to develop these kind of guys internally. This notion that they can just run out and find big, physical players that can play the game whenever they want, needs to stop. Those kind of guys are at a premium.