Softest team in league history

[WayneSid9987]

You can state that a powerplay is a deterrent; which can be at times. However, if a game gets lopsided on the scoreboard; what's going to stop a Wayne Simmonds, Tom Wilson, Matt Martin, Zac Rinaldo, or a Chris Neil from going after someone? Nothing. It's open season for this team. It's one thing to state that the team doesn't need an enforcer; it's significantly worse to even suggest that the team doesn't need to acquire any toughness whatsoever.

I cannot stand when people compare the Pens to the Blackhawks, or the Lightning to try to minimize the thoughts of acquiring toughness. They don't have the composure that the Blackhawks have. They've tried that method before and it hasn't worked. Not only that, but the Blackhawks and Lightning have some players who are not afraid to stick up for their teammates. Obviously they aren't close to being the toughest teams in the NHL. Although they do have a pack mentality; which is very important.

I'm not convinced Pittsburgh can be successful being a softer team. Balance is key. Having the toughest team is not necessary; having some toughness is.

The Pens can figure out the toughness balance later. You know, after they acquire enough skill. (They made a huge mistake with moving Despres obviously but...)
Look at what the Pens have on the roster and in the system. They should absolutely be emulating the Blackhawks and not the Kings right now.

 

[Terrapin]

Kings have won two of the last four cups and they're very probably the most-physical team over that period of time.

Do I have to link to the post-game thread from the beginning of the year where as soon as the Kings went down they spent the rest of the game slashing Crosby on the wrist, hitting Letang 5 seconds late and sending guys to fight Malkin? People who were under the bogus impression that the Kings play a skill game were really mad when they were violently disabused of that notion.

If you go back to the Bruins win, 3 of 6 cups went to the most-physical club. The most-physical club in the NHL last year, the Anaheim Ducks, lost in a game 7 of a conference final against the eventual champion.

It's funny how guys completely gloss over the physical teams that win, and just point to the skill teams that win. Anyway, JR and Botterill better hope every game against a rival is a 1 goal game, cause if we get up or down by 3 or 4 against the Flyers, Caps, etc, our beloved PP isn't going to save our stars from a beating.

 

[Terrapin]

Don't disagree, but at this point, we're better off just trying to best surround Crosby and Malkin with talent and let them get us as far as possible.

We're not going to build another LA or Boston here. That ended in 2011.

I agree, but what does having a physical 4th liner, or a big rugged defenseman have to do with Sid and Geno's lines?

 

[WayneSid9987]

Thats not to say i wouldn't mind some toughness here. Bickell @ 4M? No THANKS! Chris Stewart @ 1.7M would've been nice but theres this thing called the salary cap and 29 other teams that players can choose to play for.

 

[billybudd]

Don't disagree, but at this point, we're better off just trying to best surround Crosby and Malkin with talent and let them get us as far as possible.

We're not going to build another LA or Boston here. That ended in 2011.

Oh yeah. We're already through the looking glass on the whole "playing big" angle. It would take years to rebuild the team the way I, BGB and Terrapin would ideally want to see it. Maybe we even have some of those sorts in the pipeline now (Biggs, that enormous Russian mutant, Lindo, Ruopp, maybe McNeil), but they're all several years away, if they're anything at all.

May as well see where just trying to pile up goals and never finishing a check takes us. I'm skeptical, but anything we could do for next season would just be putting lipstick on a pig.

 

[eXile59]

It's funny how guys completely gloss over the physical teams that win, and just point to the skill teams that win. Anyway, JR and Botterill better hope every game against a rival is a 1 goal game, cause if we get up or down by 3 or 4 against the Flyers, Caps, etc, our beloved PP isn't going to save our stars from a beating.

I'm just going by the most successful model which is the Blackhawks.

Not saying Kings, Bruins, Hurricanes, even us in 09 weren't successful with a good degree of physicality since the lockout.

Even looking at the mix of teams that have won the cup would suggest that both physical and "soft" teams win cups and that being a physical really isn't that much of a deciding factor.

 

[Speed Kills]

Last year was one of the softest teams I've ever seen in 30+ years of watching hockey and that was after watching Sid get gang-raped in the playoffs 2 years ago. I still have visions of Rinaldo punking the entire bench, Letang launched into the boards head first, etc.

So, we rid ourselves of Despres, Borts, Downie, Lapierre, Sill, etc, and now don't have any, not 1 single hint of toughness or physicality.

Yes, I will enjoy watching this team score highlight-reel goals this year. But that will quickly be offset by watching teams physically humiliate and injure us, again. Thanks Mario and JR.

I agree with you 100 percent Terrapin. That incident last year with Rinaldo should have raised a red flag with our coaching staff or front office. It gets harder to win a cup when one of your stars are hurt. It has happen with Sid, Malkin and even Letang last year. Granted they had nothing to do with any cheap shots, but Teams around the league know how to play us. Tough, dirty and try to get us off our game ( Philly). That is why I loved Godard. When a player got out of line he knew what to do. How many minutes do our 4th line players get? So having a 4th line of Farnham, Sundquist and I would love to get a guy like Clifford to me would be better than Wilson, Sundquist and Rust.

 

[Terrapin]

I'm just going by the most successful model which is the Blackhawks.

Not saying Kings, Bruins, Hurricanes, even us in 09 weren't successful with a good degree of physicality since the lockout.

Even looking at the mix of teams that have won the cup would suggest that both physical and "soft" teams win cups and that being a physical really isn't that much of a deciding factor.

It may not be much of a deciding factor for some teams, but IMO it is for this team. all those teams were deep enough to weather injuries, and if they did have any top level stars, they weren't as frail as ours. Kessel will help with depth for sure.

Having goons aren't going to do any good whatsoever in the playoffs, and nobody is advocating signing any of them./ But they may help the team get to the playoffs in one piece, which again rarely happens for this team. That's why having a Suter instead of Kasain, Rust instead of Neil, Bennett instead of Stewart, etc just doesn't add up to some of us.

 

[Terrapin]

And reading these quotes from JR about the 'game changing'. Mario said the same thing years ago. Shero went nuts with puck moving defensemen and speedy forwards, cause that was the 'future of the game'. Well, surprise surprise, the league and the officials didn't fall in line. After Sid got destroyed in the playoffs 2 years ago, instead of management following through on their words about 'toughening up', they doubled down even more on their vision for the league. I really think another year of abuse is gonna push Sid and Geno to want off of this team.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I don't buy the correlation between having a fighter/it stopping our players getting hurt.

Godard was playing the night the Isles took runs at everybody.

Having John Scott in the lineup wouldn't have stopped Rinaldo from slamming Letang into the boards from behind.

The reality is the Pens are/were an arrogant bunch who's M.O. have been if you play them tough/cheap shot them, they lose thier collective ****. I don't need another 4th line goon on the roster to retaliate after that happens again. I'd rather they calmed down, played through it, get more skill/youth/size(some of them might be tough) mixed throughout the lineup and worry about the other stuff after. If you can find a player that can contribute and fight like a C.Stewart might have? I'm all for that but getting a goon, thinking it will stop everything from happening, isn't the right approach.

 

[eXile59]

I don't buy the correlation between having a fighter/it stopping our players getting hurt.

Godard was playing the night the Isles took runs at everybody.

Having John Scott in the lineup wouldn't have stopped Rinaldo from slamming Letang into the boards from behind.

I feel like I read an article that statistically showed that fighting does not prevent injuries or retaliation. Not searching for it but I feel like it's a real thing.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I don't buy the correlation between having a fighter/it stopping our players getting hurt.

Godard was playing the night the Isles took runs at everybody.

Having John Scott in the lineup wouldn't have stopped Rinaldo from slamming Letang into the boards from behind.

indeed. John Scott with a glock wouldn't have stopped it. Same with the Doan hit. An enforcer simply won't stop those kinds of plays.

I can't think of an injury to anyone on our team that could have been prevented by an enforcer. Fedatenko breaking his hand on Colby Armstrong's beak is the closest thing I can think of

 

[Shady Machine]

I will literally pay people to stop posting this junk. Despres is better than Cole. Magically tricking your brain to justify it by saying it hurts less if you trade Despres for Cole is ...

Anyhow. If I never have to read this incorrect, fallacious **** again, it'll be too soon.

This all day every day

 

[Terrapin]

indeed. John Scott with a glock wouldn't have stopped it. Same with the Doan hit. An enforcer simply won't stop those kinds of plays.

I can't think of an injury to anyone on our team that could have been prevented by an enforcer. Fedatenko breaking his hand on Colby Armstrong's beak is the closest thing I can think of

It's debatable, and can't really be proven. Would Rinaldo run amok if he knew he'd get an ass kicking? Maybe maybe not. I seem to recall having Macintyre in the lineup against Ottawa a few years ago saved Orpik from possibly getting 'Thortoned' by Neil.

 

[Waffle Fries]

The Jackets were decimated by injury last year and I'm fairly certain they had the most fighting majors in the league. So no, fighting doesn't prevent injury.

 

[Terrapin]

I don't buy the correlation between having a fighter/it stopping our players getting hurt.

Godard was playing the night the Isles took runs at everybody.

Having John Scott in the lineup wouldn't have stopped Rinaldo from slamming Letang into the boards from behind.

The reality is the Pens are/were an arrogant bunch who's M.O. have been if you play them tough/cheap shot them, they lose thier collective ****. I don't need another 4th line goon on the roster to retaliate after that happens again. I'd rather they calmed down, played through it, get more skill/youth/size(some of them might be tough) mixed throughout the lineup and worry about the other stuff after. If you can find a player that can contribute and fight like a C.Stewart might have? I'm all for that but getting a goon, thinking it will stop everything from happening, isn't the right approach.

I agree with most of this. But you don't have to buy the correlation. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't.

Godard also left the bench to save Johnson from having to fight some scrub goon. Engelland jumped in when Martin tried sucker punching Talbot from behind. That could have been another Bertuzzi incident very easily. Ask Brent Johnson and Talbot if they were glad Godard and Engo were in the lineup that night.

As far as the retaliation goes, are you sure there's no merit to it? Why do MLB pitchers drill someone when one of their guys gets hit by a pitch? It may be stupid and childish, but there's a reason it happens. A pitcher may think twice about hitting Andrew McCutcheon if they know the next inning their star is going to get one in the ear.

 

[Ogrezilla]

It's debatable, and can't really be proven. Would Rinaldo run amok if he knew he'd get an ass kicking? Maybe maybe not. I seem to recall having Macintyre in the lineup against Ottawa a few years ago saved Orpik from possibly getting 'Thortoned' by Neil.

Godard sure as hell didn't scare the Islanders before they ran amok on half our team.

 

[Terrapin]

Godard sure as hell didn't scare the Islanders before they ran amok on half our team.

We've been over this a million times. lol. That game was:

Godard, Engelland, Rupp (Asham was injured and scratched)

vs.

Gilles, Martin, Konopka, Haley.

After the first incident, when guys got tossed, it was:

Godard

vs

Gilles, Konopka, Haley.

Godard wasn't packing an AR15. The Isles also didn't seem too concerned with the Pens PP, like JR claims would prevent this stuff.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Asham, Engelland and Rupp were all playing when Crosby got his head blown up, and again the following game when he got his head blown up again. Cooke certainly wasn't worried about what Boston's tough guys would do to him when he wrecked Savard or any of the other guys he hurt. It never stopped Orpik from making a hit. Kronwall has made an art out of blowing people up and then drawing an instigator penalty. There is no reason to believe Rinaldo or Doan wouldn't have made the same hits on Letang because Scott was on the bench.

 

[Deutschland Dangler]

It's debatable, and can't really be proven. Would Rinaldo run amok if he knew he'd get an ass kicking? Maybe maybe not.

Of course he would. First of all, he was ejected anyway and probably knew that as he was hitting Letang. Second of all, he did not give a single **** about being suspended for the 734th time (as also evidenced by his post-game comments), so clearly he didn't care about what would happen, he was busy being proud of himself. And even if some goon came looking for revenge in the next meeting or whenever, then he simply turtles and gets Philly a powerplay.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Seems like a lot of the "skill only" crowd is trying to paint the other side with a pretty broad brush here.

I don't think the overwhelming majority of us want to turn the team into a goon squad. We could just use some more size and snarl than we already have, which is pretty reasonable. Those attributes aren't everything, but I think it'd be foolish to ignore them completely.

Kings have won two of the last four cups and they're very probably the most-physical team over that period of time.

Do I have to link to the post-game thread from the beginning of the year where as soon as the Kings went down they spent the rest of the game slashing Crosby on the wrist, hitting Letang 5 seconds late and sending guys to fight Malkin? People who were under the bogus impression that the Kings play a skill game were really mad when they were violently disabused of that notion.

Yep. Fat lot of good a PP will do us if a blatant slash to the wrist takes Crosby or Malkin out of commission.

And it's not just about adding guys, either. Getting rid of complacent vets who'd gladly watch Crosby get manhandled should be a priority too. That's where the pack mentality falls apart.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Oh yeah, I would be happy to have more size. Its never a bad thing if it doesn't come at the expense of being able to play hockey.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Oh yeah, I would be happy to have more size. Its never a bad thing if it doesn't come at the expense of being able to play hockey.

Agreed. The guys have to be able to play...just how much is debatable though. I was happy to have Engo on the bottom pair, but I know many weren't.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Agreed. The guys have to be able to play...just how much is debatable though. I was happy to have Engo on the bottom pair, but I know many weren't.

I'd take him over Lovejoy or Scuds. Not over anyone else we have. And certainly not at his current price.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'd take him over Lovejoy or Scuds. Not over anyone else we have. And certainly not at his current price.

That's the thing. Physical guys who can play cost money.