Simple yes or no poll: Do you think we beat the Habs with Tavares?

[ShaneFalco]

Excuses

 

[Mess]

If $11 mil Marner is able to score even a single goal in the series do the Leafs win this series?
If $11.6 mil Matthews the Rocket Richard winner is able to score more than 1 goal in 7 games do the Leafs win this series?
If Zach Hyman scores more than a single goal in the series do the Leafs win this series.
If Wayne Simmonds is able to score even a single goal in the series do the Leafs win this series?
If Nick Foligno whom was acquired at the TD for a 1st round pick is able to score even a single goal in the series do the Leafs win this series?
If Mikheyev scores a single goal in the series, do the Leafs win this series?
If coach Keefe even plays Marner and Matthews apart for even a single shift in the series to try to generate offense do the Leafs win this series?
If coach Keefe after playing rookie Sandin and it costs a game, doesn't play him again in the series to cost another loss do the Leafs win the series?
If Keefe had coached better in the series and adjusted his plan do the Leafs win this series?
If Dubas brings someone in at the TD that could actually help the Leafs win a series do the Leafs win this series?
If Leaf players stop shooting the puck over glass and giving up PP goals do the Leafs win the series.
If Jack Campbell makes 1 more key save on an allowed goal in a lost game do the Leafs wins this series?
If Leafs starting goalie Freddy Andersen plays in net in anyone of those 4 losses do the Leafs win this series?
If Galchenyuk doesn't cause a giveaway, if Thornton isn't a -3 in the serires, if Dermott doesn't, if etc etc etc etc do the Leafs win the series?

If you can answer Yes to any of these plausible questions as examples, that could have changed the outcome of the series and not just considered missing Tavares the only one, because all are just as hypothetical series changing outcomes also.

Does missing John Tavares to injury absolve all these other players, coaches and events from blame for losing the series they should have won, as after all they were actually involved and could effect the outcome unlike JT?

 

[KuleminFan41]

Only game I see a problem with is game 5, he had 26-29 before the overtime goal. He could’ve had a better game if it weren’t for a 2-0 thanks to galch, but nonetheless he was not great before that goal.

Game 6, he had 29-31 that’s a .935, if we finish one of our 16 chances, he’s had a good game.

game 7, first goal was weak, but people have to realize this team has no fightback. Every year. Washington it was johansson. Boston 1 was debrusk. Boston 2 it was Nordstrom. Columbus it was foudy. And Montreal was Gallagher. Each player scored a weak goal in the final game of the series. You can take the easy way out and say the goaltender was shit, but that’s an excuse. This team has very little pushback. Each of those goals made it a game where we were at most down by 2. This team can’t hit a gear and win it for the goalie. Campbell plays amazing games 1-4 and we can’t give him a break? Come on this team is so flawed and it isn’t just the goaltender

You're just not going to win a game with a save percentage below .910%. You can't salvage his performances in those final 3 games because they weren't that good. You can play "if" game all you want but what if he just made 1 more save? See what I mean?

Toronto Maple Leafs at Montreal Canadiens Box Score — May 29, 2021 | Hockey-Reference.com

^^Game 6 his save% is .903%, not .935. Do you really believe his weak short side goal to Perry in game 6 was a good goal to give up? Even the OT goal was weak, a shot from the top of the circle with no one blocking his view and it goes in. Give a way or not, he has to make that save. He blew those games, that doesn't mean he should never play again, but as I said, games 2-4 do not override what he did in 5-7. We lost the series, with better goaltending we probably would have won.

And just for completionists sake. Game 1-.933 %(Price .972%) Game 2 - .957 % , Game 3 - .966 % , Game 4 - 1.00 %. You'll notice a trend here

Why do you think it will be different all of a sudden? If you roll with Andy and Campbell, why would you suddenly expect a big improvement come playoff time? I expect much of the same.

Every year, and every playoff series is different. The Washington Capitals went with Brayden Holtby for 9 years. They routinely got eliminated from the second round and even missed the playoffs at one point . I know what you're going to say, they got past the 1st round, yes that is correct but losing in the second round and in the first , is hardly all that different, you lost, you just played a week longer. It took The Capitals with Holtby 6 years to win a cup . My point in all this is, it takes time to win and it takes a lot of failures before becoming successful . If you don't like the Capitals comparison, go look at St.Louis, they had their troubles getting out of the first round, and similar to Washington, they missed the playoffs and won a cup the following year. Oddly enough, Washington, Pittsburgh, St.Louis and LA have either lost in the first round, or out missed the playoffs entirely since their cup wins

 

[Bomber0104]

The answer is obvious but what the question should really be is "why invest so heavily in 3 or 4 individuals where when one of them goes down, so do your team's chances of winning?"

I've long talked about the issues of risk managment.

We saw it played out in real time this playoff, against the Leafs.

I hate when I'm right but I told you all so.

 

[egd27]

The 1st. line needed him.

Nylander's line didn't.

That line would have had a 2nd. player capable of putting the puck in the net, I would hope marner could make a pass to someone other than Matthews.

So Tavares-Matthews-Marner ?

Wasn't the answer against CBJ

 

[ULF_55]

So Tavares-Matthews-Marner ?

Wasn't the answer against CBJ

But it isn't the team that played CBJ.

 

[egd27]

But it isn't the team that played CBJ.

Well maybe it would have worked this time. Lord knows Keefe doesn't seem to have too many other tricks up his sleeve.

 

[fahad203]

If $11 mil Marner is able to score even a single goal in the series do the Leafs win this series?
If $11.6 mil Matthews the Rocket Richard winner is able to score more than 1 goal in 7 games do the Leafs win this series?
If Zach Hyman scores more than a single goal in the series do the Leafs win this series.
If Wayne Simmonds is able to score even a single goal in the series do the Leafs win this series?
If Nick Foligno whom was acquired at the TD for a 1st round pick is able to score even a single goal in the series do the Leafs win this series?
If Mikheyev scores a single goal in the series, do the Leafs win this series?
If coach Keefe even plays Marner and Matthews apart for even a single shift in the series to try to generate offense do the Leafs win this series?
If coach Keefe after playing rookie Sandin and it costs a game, doesn't play him again in the series to cost another loss do the Leafs win the series?
If Keefe had coached better in the series and adjusted his plan do the Leafs win this series?
If Dubas brings someone in at the TD that could actually help the Leafs win a series do the Leafs win this series?
If Leaf players stop shooting the puck over glass and giving up PP goals do the Leafs win the series.
If Jack Campbell makes 1 more key save on an allowed goal in a lost game do the Leafs wins this series?
If Leafs starting goalie Freddy Andersen plays in net in anyone of those 4 losses do the Leafs win this series?
If Galchenyuk doesn't cause a giveaway, if Thornton isn't a -3 in the serires, if Dermott doesn't, if etc etc etc etc do the Leafs win the series?

If you can answer Yes to any of these plausible questions as examples, that could have changed the outcome of the series and not just considered missing Tavares the only one, because all are just as hypothetical series changing outcomes also.

Does missing John Tavares to injury absolve all these other players, coaches and events from blame for losing the series, as after all they were actually involved and could effect the outcome unlike JT?

I think you are onto something

There was a collective let down

I remember few years ago, depth was our strength. That is until Kadri kept getting suspended

We are such a pretty team

 

[TiMo15]

It's possible, players should stepped up to advance to the next round for their captain. Then he can come back to play. But they ended up to choke like as usual for the last couple years. It's obvious that they aren't Tampa elite lvl.

 

[makbeer]

The more time passes and the sting of the loss lessens, the more accepting I become to the idea that this team actually still is pretty good and that the Tavares injury hurt us more than we'd like to admit.

As terrible and unfortunate as the injury was, I think the Habs lowkey breathed a sigh of relief that they wouldn't have any matchup nightmares and heavily focused on shutting Matthews and Marner down with Danault, Weber and Chiarot on their asses like white on rice all game. I don't think they gave a single f*** about who else scored after that, as long as it wasn't them, our 2 most dangerous players. Price playing out of his mind the entire Habs run shouldn't be discredited either.

Watching guys like Wheeler, Connor, Ehlers, Stone, Marchessault all get shut down the same way Matthews and Marner did makes me feel less bad, and if we had Tavares on the 2nd line instead of Kerfoot, we win I think.

We win the series in 4.

 

[Aashir]

You're just not going to win a game with a save percentage below .910%. You can't salvage his performances in those final 3 games because they weren't that good. You can play "if" game all you want but what if he just made 1 more save? See what I mean?

Toronto Maple Leafs at Montreal Canadiens Box Score — May 29, 2021 | Hockey-Reference.com

^^Game 6 his save% is .903%, not .935. Do you really believe his weak short side goal to Perry in game 6 was a good goal to give up? Even the OT goal was weak, a shot from the top of the circle with no one blocking his view and it goes in. Give a way or not, he has to make that save. He blew those games, that doesn't mean he should never play again, but as I said, games 2-4 do not override what he did in 5-7. We lost the series, with better goaltending we probably would have won.

And just for completionists sake. Game 1-.933 %(Price .972%) Game 2 - .957 % , Game 3 - .966 % , Game 4 - 1.00 %. You'll notice a trend here


Every year, and every playoff series is different. The Washington Capitals went with Brayden Holtby for 9 years. They routinely got eliminated from the second round and even missed the playoffs at one point . I know what you're going to say, they got past the 1st round, yes that is correct but losing in the second round and in the first , is hardly all that different, you lost, you just played a week longer. It took The Capitals with Holtby 6 years to win a cup . My point in all this is, it takes time to win and it takes a lot of failures before becoming successful . If you don't like the Capitals comparison, go look at St.Louis, they had their troubles getting out of the first round, and similar to Washington, they missed the playoffs and won a cup the following year. Oddly enough, Washington, Pittsburgh, St.Louis and LA have either lost in the first round, or out missed the playoffs entirely since their cup wins

Well if all you do is stat watch then sure, he had a a bad last few games. And you say you aren’t going to win a game with stats below a .910, which firstly is false. But secondly, how about holding the entire team to that standard. Marner….0 goals. Matthews leading goal scorer by a ton…… 1 goal. Jason f***ing Spezza had more goals then them. Hell kerfoot had the same as both combined. So at the end , we’ve swapped goaltenders. We’ve been given low end, mid end, and high end goaltending performances in different years, the depths changed, but one thing hasn’t, the big boys. Name 1 playoffs where we had multiple guys go off.

Washington was Matthews, Marner was alright nylander was actually pretty good so this ones a pass I guess but it’s 5 years ago

Boston 1 was Marner, Matthews and nylander wouldve been more useful sitting in the stands

Boston 2 was Matthews, Marner was ok, nylander shouldn’t have played hockey

Columbus was Matthews, Marner and nylander were trash

Montreal was nylander, Matthews and Marner were complete shit.

this doesn’t even include Tavares who’s been trash both years he played

what’s the point of 4 amazing forwards if it’s only 1 who shows up per year. Keep Matthews and trade the rest then.

What about game 5? A 2-0, what you expect our goaltender to save that and just a few games ago in the regular season during Ot, our boys had a 2-0 and didn’t even get a shot on the exact same play.

btw, that game 6 goal went off bogosian and in, I was mad at the time when it went in too, but was shown a clear replay where it hit off of bogo. It was on this website as well.

blame goaltending all you want, but when Mitch Marner and Austin Matthews score 1 goal in 7 games, you’ll never win.

 

[Byron Bitz]

No doubt we would have beat them with Tavares, they barely squeaked past us without him. We didn’t have an adequate replacement for him. They still should have been able to close out the series without him though.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

They fell 1 goal short without him which means for them to lose with him he would have had to score nothing, not a single point that would not have happened.

Yes they wib the series with him 1000% it's not even up for debate

 

[Stonehands1990]

Well if all you do is stat watch then sure, he had a a bad last few games. And you say you aren’t going to win a game with stats below a .910, which firstly is false. But secondly, how about holding the entire team to that standard. Marner….0 goals. Matthews leading goal scorer by a ton…… 1 goal. Jason f***ing Spezza had more goals then them. Hell kerfoot had the same as both combined. So at the end , we’ve swapped goaltenders. We’ve been given low end, mid end, and high end goaltending performances in different years, the depths changed, but one thing hasn’t, the big boys. Name 1 playoffs where we had multiple guys go off.

Washington was Matthews, Marner was alright nylander was actually pretty good so this ones a pass I guess but it’s 5 years ago

Boston 1 was Marner, Matthews and nylander wouldve been more useful sitting in the stands

Boston 2 was Matthews, Marner was ok, nylander shouldn’t have played hockey

Columbus was Matthews, Marner and nylander were trash

Montreal was nylander, Matthews and Marner were complete shit.

this doesn’t even include Tavares who’s been trash both years he played

what’s the point of 4 amazing forwards if it’s only 1 who shows up per year. Keep Matthews and trade the rest then.

What about game 5? A 2-0, what you expect our goaltender to save that and just a few games ago in the regular season during Ot, our boys had a 2-0 and didn’t even get a shot on the exact same play.

btw, that game 6 goal went off bogosian and in, I was mad at the time when it went in too, but was shown a clear replay where it hit off of bogo. It was on this website as well.

blame goaltending all you want, but when Mitch Marner and Austin Matthews score 1 goal in 7 games, you’ll never win.

Excuse me how was Nylander shit against Montreal? 5 goals doesn’t do it for you?

 

[Aashir]

Excuse me how was Nylander shit against Montreal? 5 goals doesn’t do it for you?

I said that he was the good one. I might have phrased it wrong and should’ve used a semi colon, but the point was that he was the only good one. The other two were ass. Just like how for example in boston 2, Matthews was the good one, and Marner and nylander were the let downs

 

[darrylsittler27]

The Leafs simply have too many critical flaws from management down. Tavares doesn't change that. It was a team fail with an impotent p.p, even before the injury. Excuse factory.

 

[Racer88]

P.s no need to protect him. Kracken would never take him.

He has a no trade so unfortunately they have to protect him

 

[AvroArrow]

If $11 mil Marner is able to score even a single goal in the series do the Leafs win this series?
If $11.6 mil Matthews the Rocket Richard winner is able to score more than 1 goal in 7 games do the Leafs win this series?
If Zach Hyman scores more than a single goal in the series do the Leafs win this series.
If Wayne Simmonds is able to score even a single goal in the series do the Leafs win this series?
If Nick Foligno whom was acquired at the TD for a 1st round pick is able to score even a single goal in the series do the Leafs win this series?
If Mikheyev scores a single goal in the series, do the Leafs win this series?
If coach Keefe even plays Marner and Matthews apart for even a single shift in the series to try to generate offense do the Leafs win this series?
If coach Keefe after playing rookie Sandin and it costs a game, doesn't play him again in the series to cost another loss do the Leafs win the series?
If Keefe had coached better in the series and adjusted his plan do the Leafs win this series?
If Dubas brings someone in at the TD that could actually help the Leafs win a series do the Leafs win this series?
If Leaf players stop shooting the puck over glass and giving up PP goals do the Leafs win the series.
If Jack Campbell makes 1 more key save on an allowed goal in a lost game do the Leafs wins this series?
If Leafs starting goalie Freddy Andersen plays in net in anyone of those 4 losses do the Leafs win this series?
If Galchenyuk doesn't cause a giveaway, if Thornton isn't a -3 in the serires, if Dermott doesn't, if etc etc etc etc do the Leafs win the series?

If you can answer Yes to any of these plausible questions as examples, that could have changed the outcome of the series and not just considered missing Tavares the only one, because all are just as hypothetical series changing outcomes also.

Does missing John Tavares to injury absolve all these other players, coaches and events from blame for losing the series they should have won, as after all they were actually involved and could effect the outcome unlike JT?

This is a great post. We lost due to a collection of many things, rather than 1 single incident. If we win 1 more puck battle does it result in a goal for ? Or 1 less goal against ? We remember the key plays because they stand out, but the entirety of the game is the collection of a million small plays.

 

[Mugzy97]

I dont think we do. Losing one player should not mean significant downgrade. Good teams are not built that way because injuries can happen to anyone at any time.

I mean Tampa basically won the cup last season with Stamkos barely even playing. NYI went to the conference finals without their captain playing even a single game.

The difference is this injury was pretty traumatic and happened right in front of them. There is definitely an emotional and mental factor, while the other injuries you talk about were already known before the series started.

It may not be much different, but it is a difference.

 

[Mugzy97]

The answer is obvious but what the question should really be is "why invest so heavily in 3 or 4 individuals where when one of them goes down, so do your team's chances of winning?"

If any team in the league - or any team sport in the world really - loses one of their top 4 players, their chances of winning goes down.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

I dont think we do. Losing one player should not mean significant downgrade. Good teams are not built that way because injuries can happen to anyone at any time.

I mean Tampa basically won the cup last season with Stamkos barely even playing. NYI went to the conference finals without their captain playing even a single game.

I'm not sure and rather doubtful as well. But, I think its another crutch that a segment of the fanbase will need to make it feel better.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

I don't think we win a cup, but a summer without that first round Monkey on our backs would go a long way IMO

At this stage though, just winning one round would be overdue, underwhelming and not that great of a result. We had a really great and golden opportunity and blew it this year. Oh well, as we like to say in here, "next year".

 

[Mess]

The Leafs simply have too many critical flaws from management down. Tavares doesn't change that. It was a team fail with an impotent p.p, even before the injury. Excuse factory.

I agree.

Its surprising the some fans simply can't accept poor cap management, poor player personnel, weak coaching, underperforming players and mistakes and breakdowns that all lead to a 3-1 collapse as valid reasons the team lost. It just seems easier I guess to use Tavares the one player who didn't play essentially to help explain the disappointment & failure, instead of the 20 players that did, and the coach who coached them, and the GM who assembled them.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Well if all you do is stat watch then sure, he had a a bad last few games. And you say you aren’t going to win a game with stats below a .910, which firstly is false. But secondly, how about holding the entire team to that standard. Marner….0 goals. Matthews leading goal scorer by a ton…… 1 goal. Jason f***ing Spezza had more goals then them. Hell kerfoot had the same as both combined. So at the end , we’ve swapped goaltenders. We’ve been given low end, mid end, and high end goaltending performances in different years, the depths changed, but one thing hasn’t, the big boys. Name 1 playoffs where we had multiple guys go off.

Washington was Matthews, Marner was alright nylander was actually pretty good so this ones a pass I guess but it’s 5 years ago

Boston 1 was Marner, Matthews and nylander wouldve been more useful sitting in the stands

Boston 2 was Matthews, Marner was ok, nylander shouldn’t have played hockey

Columbus was Matthews, Marner and nylander were trash

Montreal was nylander, Matthews and Marner were complete shit.

this doesn’t even include Tavares who’s been trash both years he played

what’s the point of 4 amazing forwards if it’s only 1 who shows up per year. Keep Matthews and trade the rest then.

What about game 5? A 2-0, what you expect our goaltender to save that and just a few games ago in the regular season during Ot, our boys had a 2-0 and didn’t even get a shot on the exact same play.

btw, that game 6 goal went off bogosian and in, I was mad at the time when it went in too, but was shown a clear replay where it hit off of bogo. It was on this website as well.

blame goaltending all you want, but when Mitch Marner and Austin Matthews score 1 goal in 7 games, you’ll never win.

You're right...we can't have just 1 of the big 4 playing well every playoffs. JT has been MIA in the playoffs as far as I am concerned. I really doubt he makes much of a difference in those 7 games. People say he would have potted a couple. I agree..but it would have been in the games we had already been leading in with a clear chance to win, not in overtime or any other tight situation.

We don't need 4 star forwards...a couple will be good enough and we can use the assets from the other 2 to balance out the team.

 

[Guided by Veseys]

I agree.

Its surprising the some fans simply can't accept poor cap management, poor player personnel, weak coaching, underperforming players and mistakes and breakdowns that all lead to a 3-1 collapse as valid reasons the team lost. It just seems easier I guess to use Tavares the one player who didn't play essentially to help explain the disappointment & failure, instead of the 20 players that did, and the coach who coached them, and the GM who assembled them.

The team certainly can have all those errors and still have won with Tavares. Voting yes doesn’t suddenly mean that every issue is invalidated.
It doesn’t have to be so political, it’s just a simple yes or no like the title asks. A person shouldn’t have to vote no against their best instincts just because they think the team makeup sucks and the contracts are bad.