He's the best player today. I say just enjoy watching him.
Agreed. I just don't think that means we should turn a blind eye to/not argue with people who legitimately think he's the best ever. But yes, I certainly wouldn't start a thread titled "Crosby is only the 20th best player of all time" for example.
Salary Cap and super team. It's a lot easier to win many cups when the team is the only who decides whether a player remains on the roster or not. And it's also easier to pay a guy more to keep him when there is no limit to how much you can pay the guys? Not to mention the Habs didn't trade away their players who started following Ted Lindsay's union stuff, unlike the Red Wings and Maple Leafs. Do the Habs win 5 in a row if Lindsay stays in Detroit?
You're using a team accomplishment from a 6 team with a squad that had how many hall of famers? Beliveau has many strong points in his favor, and I can certainly see a case for him over Crosby, on his own merits.
But to use cups as the differentiator? I could see if Crosby hadn't won any, but when you consider the type of team Crosby joined, vs what Beliveau joined, the fact he's played in 4 finals in a league where you need to win 3 rounds and the roster changes constantly because of the salary cap, I think under the parameters, Crosby is pretty darn close to closing the playoff gap.
Beliveau was a great player who was surrounded by great players who rarely left. Crosby is a great player who has had 1 great player on his squad the whole time.
I'm hardly a fan of using Cups as a primary differentiation metric, but it holds water when the discrepancy is that large.
That said, it's also not like Beliveau had "super teams" in the current NBA sense. There were no Cavaliers-Pacers or Warriors-Blazers matchups. Crosby having a fellow top-5 player throughout his whole career can't just be disregarded completely either.
Teams in that era with hall of famers also had to regularly face Hall of Famers. The Ted Lindsay question is an impossible to answer hypothetical, because it'd be like asking "what if the Caps drafted Erik Karlsson and Henrik Lundqvist?" Does Crosby still have three Cups in that universe?
This! Even if 120+ points might be asking a bit too much
Also, that Crosby has 2 Conn Smythes is a damn shame. I would accept 1 since he have been top 4 in cup runs, even if he shouldn't even have 1 imo. This year he deserved it, but not more than Malkin or the goalie tandem if they somehow changed the rules so you could share it.
Another shame is that Pittsburgh Penguins own page on Facebook claimed that he is THE GOAT. I like Crosby, but can't stand how people overrate him.
I don't think the strength of the trophy wins necessarily matters in a high level comparison, but certainly that has to play a factor in a more in-depth comparison. A Conn Smythe where the winner just ran the tables against everyone else is certainly different than a toss up, as was the case the past two years. Kessel and Malkin winning in 2016 and 2017 respectively certainly knocks Sid's career value down a notch, and that scenario is not entirely unreasonable either.
One case regarding the bolded is that in Crosby's three cups, the Pens have beaten out 87 (there's that number, again) other teams. In Beliveau's ten cups, the Habs beat out 70 other teams.
It could also be argued that Beliveau's career was extended (or at least his stat line was improved) by the league doubling in size just as he should have started to decline.
And in my view, they both missed enough games to look at how many years each led the league in PPG. Sid has led that number 5 times in a 30 league team. Beliveau 3 times -- each of them in a 6 team league.
It's funny, a few weeks ago when the "Crosby in the top 10" thread was posted in the NHL Talk forum I figured Crosby would finish his career somewhere just above Yzerman. After watching a lot of the arguments against him fail, I have him higher. And at this point I don't think Morenz and Beliveau have anything on him other than longevity. He's not past them yet, but I believe he will be.
Again, it's not like Beliveau was beating up on the era's equivalent 2017 Colorado Avalanche.
Fair enough to everything else; I wouldn't be surprised if Sid ends up there either. If he can crack 1900 points (third behind Jagr), he's a slam dunk at 5 and maybe he starts challenging the top-4. But assuming that he plays another 10 seasons (not a guarantee), he needs to average 87 points per year (there's that number!!) to get there. That's a huge, huge task. Averaging 70 over the next 8 has him flirting with the 1600 range, which is certainly all-time impressive after adjusting for era, but not top-5.
Morenz and Beliveau are more attainable for sure, because he probably gets to that level with a couple more individual awards, continued first/second team all-star finishes and points compiling. Fair enough. But the main point is that he is not there yet, and that's all I would like to highlight.
