Sidney Crosby Top 5 player of all time

[bombers15]

Right, because Lidstrom being speared in the testicles in the previous round that caused him having to have surgery before the finals, nor Rafalski's herniated disc at the same time, had nothing to do with that success.

Not sure how saying he beat a banged up defensive pair, can add much credibility, seeing as you saw what they both did to Crosby the previous year when they were both healthy, even at 38 & 35.

This is why these discussions are pointless. There is always an excuse, always a "what if".

You made the case that Crosby wasn't the best because he has somehow been playing against scrub opposition his whole career. You even used the example of Pronger, even though Pronger quite literally played against Crosby for years. Never mind also that Lidstrom - perhaps the greatest d-man to ever play the game - also overlapped Crosby for 7 seasons. And of course, beating Lidstrom in the playoffs doesn't count because reasons.

When Crosby's team gets hurt and he wins anyway, no one gives him any extra credit. When Crosby himself gets hurt, people blame him and use it as a knock against him. And when the opposition gets hurt, well, Crosby beating them then counts for nothing.

It's perfect logic for the perfectly illogical. Reminds me of the "Hater-Adjusted Points" which should be a permanent statline for Crosby.

 

[Nothing Is New]

I think he is now top five - headed for number 2 all time (and I badly wanted him to fail and the Preds win the Cup)..

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Let's see... Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe, Beliveau, Hasek, Roy, Bourque, Lidstrom and Jagr are still ahead of him. Arguments too for Harvey, Shore, Brodeur, Sakic, Yzerman and Hull.

I can see him passing several of these guys with a few more years of top level play. Squeaking into the top 5 isn't even out of reach if he stays healthy.

 

[Riddum]

Jagr>Crosby

Crosby is not even better than Forsberg... and Foppa was 1 notch below Jagr

 

[pits200]

The problem with comparing against those old skill guys to the modern era isn't who was better. It's that those guys were so much better than their competition that it made it more apparent how great they were, it was the epitome if boys vs men.

Today with athletes bring so well trained and coached from a young age, the compete level is like average men vs good men. With how our society is in training athletes you will never see those huge disparities in athletes anymore like you did in the older days.

Also, the idea if someone's history will always win. Can you think of any modern athlete where you are like, "he's the best ever" no, because the memory of a player is always greater than the actual person

 

[Fazkovsky]

top 8-10

End of career top 5

 

[NastyNick]

I never watched Gordie Howe play in his prime. I never saw Bobby Orr either. And unfortunately because the games weren't filmed and put online like they are now - there really isn't any way to properly evaluate things besides statistics. I don't even bother to try grouping those guys in with the guys i know. It just isn't a fair evaluation.

I watched Mario and Wayne play the game alot. I honestly feel like they've been overrated as time as gone on. Their era was different - and the difference created an distinct edge in the amount of production they had. The league overall had less talent. Less international players. Far worse goaltending. I still think Mario and Wayne were superstars of their era - but not giants and gods the way people like to portray them. They were superstars - at the right time - when games were televised and the league was ripe. In all honesty, Mike Bossy probably deserves to be mentioned alongside Mario and Wayne and he never is. He was just as good IMO. And a few years later you had guys like Hull, Sakic, Yzerman, Jagr, Forsberg, etc.. and the field got a little more crowded and it was harder for one or two guys to stand on top.

That all said, Crosby has become the clear-cut best of this era. It doesn't matter what stage hes on and where hes playing. Hes redefined what it means to be a hockey player. He works hard, he has incredible hands, speed, shot.. and seems to inspire the players around him. Sullivan has said, time and time again, how great the leadership is in the room for the Penguins. He really means Sid. I think he should go down as the greatest of his era - and at the very least be considered as a possible greatest of all time. Top 5 lists are worthless.. just stick his name at the top of the list for players of this era.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Jagr>Crosby

Crosby is not even better than Forsberg... and Foppa was 1 notch below Jagr

Forsberg better than crosby? Lmfaoo. And no crosby>jagr

 

[Boxscore]

Right now, I'd say Crosby should definitely be regarded as a Top-5 FORWARD of all-time... and potentially 5th best player all-time.

FORWARDS
1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Howe
4-5-6-7-8. Jagr, Messier, Crosby, Beliveau, Richard in some order.

PLAYERS
1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Howe
...
Then Crosby is in the mix with the other forwards and players like Roy, etc.

 

[Sentinel]

No, he is not. He is a Top 5 center though and has a shot at #3. He has a strong case over Morenz and can, imaginably, surpass Beliveau (if he is the best player on a Cup-winning team at 40, he will).

He is only a third player in history to win a Richard / goal-scoring title AND a Conn Smythe / retro-Conn Smythe in the same year (55-56 Beliveau and 84-85 Gretzky). Add to that his World Cup dominance... and that's a pretty special season.

 

[Neuf]

Not until he has a President's Trophy and the Campbell Bowl.

 

[george14]

I think Crosby is top 10 and will be top 5 by the time he retires. He just needs to put in some more time for statistic purposes, IMO.

1) GOATzky
2) Orr
3) Mario
4) Howe
5) Jagr but I think Crosby will pass him

 

[Sentinel]

This isn't a great argument for a lot of reasons. One obvious one being that Crosby beat Nick Lidstrom in the finals in '09.

What are you talking about? Lidstrom and Zetterberg ate Crosby alive in 09!

 

[PensFanSince1989]

Seriously you guys heard of Sakic, Yzerman, Rocket Richard, Esposito the list is long Crosby is not even in top ten not even close. Crosby wins sure but he does not dominate like others have before and won also. Just because he's one of the best now doesn't make him an all time great.

Lol, ya...did surpassed Yzerman and Salic a long time ago. It's not that we haven't heard of them, we just don't overrate players just because of nalstalgia

 

[golfortennis]

I never watched Gordie Howe play in his prime. I never saw Bobby Orr either. And unfortunately because the games weren't filmed and put online like they are now - there really isn't any way to properly evaluate things besides statistics. I don't even bother to try grouping those guys in with the guys i know. It just isn't a fair evaluation.

I watched Mario and Wayne play the game alot. I honestly feel like they've been overrated as time as gone on. Their era was different - and the difference created an distinct edge in the amount of production they had. The league overall had less talent. Less international players. Far worse goaltending. I still think Mario and Wayne were superstars of their era - but not giants and gods the way people like to portray them. They were superstars - at the right time - when games were televised and the league was ripe. In all honesty, Mike Bossy probably deserves to be mentioned alongside Mario and Wayne and he never is. He was just as good IMO. And a few years later you had guys like Hull, Sakic, Yzerman, Jagr, Forsberg, etc.. and the field got a little more crowded and it was harder for one or two guys to stand on top.

Thing is, if Bossy really should be mentioned alongside Gretzky and Lemieux, why was he never close to their numbers? The man put up Hall of Fame numbers in an era you say was easier to score, and Gretzky and Lemieux put him, and everyone else to shame. Gretzky's 81-87 scoring titles alone were won by 384 points over second place. If the era was so easy to score in, why was almost 400 points better than second place each year? A guy who scored 400 points in 6 seasons in the 80s had a decently long career, and that is his MoV.

Crosby is hurt by the fact the median player can do so many more things. And don't forget goalie equipment has made a huge difference. Pun intended, but also the fact the pads don't get heavier as the game goes on either.

Sorry, but if Gretzky and Lemieux were overrated, it would be because other guys were also doing what they did. Remember Gretzky won an assist title at 37 when all these "better players" were really taking over. He wouldn't have 200 point seasons, but he would still be clearly the best.

 

[Boxscore]

Lol, ya...did surpassed Yzerman and Salic a long time ago. It's not that we haven't heard of them, we just don't overrate players just because of nalstalgia

I think after this Cup and Conn Smythe, Crosby passed guys like Sakic, Yzerman, Clarke, Mikita and Esposito.

Sakic was a great player for many years with some heroic playoff performances. Crosby has been an ELITE player since day 1 and now has the playoff performances and MVP's to boot. I put Sid above the others I just listed as well.

IMO, Crosby will NEVER catch Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux. And he'd have to win a couple more Cups and MVPs plus multiple Art Ross', Harts, etc. to be in the discussion with Howe. But, if Crosby plays another 8-10 years, could he make a case for 4th best all-time? Maybe. I have Mario ahead of Gordie.

 

[Sentinel]

Thing is, if Bossy really should be mentioned alongside Gretzky and Lemieux, why was he never close to their numbers? The man put up Hall of Fame numbers in an era you say was easier to score, and Gretzky and Lemieux put him, and everyone else to shame.

9 straight 50+ goal seasons and 3 straight 18 goal playoffs are not exactly "shameful." They are so not shameful, that neither Wayne nor Mario have ever accomplished these feats. I'm not saying he was better than them, but "shame" is not a hyperbole I'd use when talking about Mike Bossy.

 

[Sentinel]

I think after this Cup and Conn Smythe, Crosby passed guys like Sakic, Yzerman, Clarke, Mikita and Esposito.

Sakic was a great player for many years with some heroic playoff performances. Crosby has been an ELITE player since day 1 and now has the playoff performances and MVP's to boot. I put Sid above the others I just listed as well.

The thing with all these forwards (except Esposito) is that they were all phenomenal defensive players. While Crosby is a solid two-way player, they were all mega-elite. So it boils down to how much you value two-way play.

 

[yababy]

Without question, Sid is now one of the Top 5 best players of all time...

3 Stanley Cups
2 Conn Smythes
2 Olympic Gold Medals
2 Art Ross Trophies
2 Hart Trophies

oh god, here we go again

 

[Boxscore]

The thing with all these forwards (except Esposito) is that they were all phenomenal defensive players. While Crosby is a solid two-way player, they were all mega-elite. So it boils down to how much you value two-way play.

True. I get that. But, at some point (at least for me), offensive dominance trumps incredible 2-way play. And, it's not like Sid's 200 foot game is chopped liver. When you look at Sid's offensive dominance, individual trophy case, and now playoff trophy case and 2x Conn Smythe's, I don't think anyone can put those guys in front of him. And, I'm a Flyers fan who considers Bobby Clarke a god.

 

[paracord]

9 straight 50+ goal seasons and 3 straight 18 goal playoffs are not exactly "shameful." They are so not shameful, that neither Wayne nor Mario have ever accomplished these feats. I'm not saying he was better than them, but "shame" is not a hyperbole I'd use when talking about Mike Bossy.

Boss was a goal scoring MACHINE. But not close to the overall transcendence of Mario or Wayne.

Crosby is WAY up there already, and hopefully has many great years left. Keep him with Geno and Murray and there will always be chances to win.

 

[Laineux]

Exactly. The level of hard hitting/shutdown defensemen during that era is night & day compared to today.

Also, he would have to go up against the likes of Hasek, Brodeur, Roy, Joseph, Belfour, Richter, Vernon, among many others, in their prime.

Crosby is up against goaltenders with much higher average sv% so...

The level of defensemens average skating ability today is a million miles above what it was in the 90's.

 

[golfortennis]

9 straight 50+ goal seasons and 3 straight 18 goal playoffs are not exactly "shameful." They are so not shameful, that neither Wayne nor Mario have ever accomplished these feats. I'm not saying he was better than them, but "shame" is not a hyperbole I'd use when talking about Mike Bossy.

But that's my point. Bossy was a great player. A great player, and yet Gretzky and Lemieux almost make him look like an also-ran by comparison. What do you think about a player who has the same number of fewer points from Bossy that Bossy had from Gretzky? A journeyman. A solid player.

Gretzky was 10 goals(from 16 missed games) from 9 straight 50 goal seasons, plus he beat Bossy in goals from the time he 20 on.

The point isn't to knock Bossy. It's to show just how much better Gretzky was.

 

[yababy]

Thing is, if Bossy really should be mentioned alongside Gretzky and Lemieux, why was he never close to their numbers? The man put up Hall of Fame numbers in an era you say was easier to score, and Gretzky and Lemieux put him, and everyone else to shame. Gretzky's 81-87 scoring titles alone were won by 384 points over second place. If the era was so easy to score in, why was almost 400 points better than second place each year? A guy who scored 400 points in 6 seasons in the 80s had a decently long career, and that is his MoV.

Crosby is hurt by the fact the median player can do so many more things. And don't forget goalie equipment has made a huge difference. Pun intended, but also the fact the pads don't get heavier as the game goes on either.

Sorry, but if Gretzky and Lemieux were overrated, it would be because other guys were also doing what they did. Remember Gretzky won an assist title at 37 when all these "better players" were really taking over. He wouldn't have 200 point seasons, but he would still be clearly the best.

100% agree about Bossy
Thing is, he was even better in the playoffs, and better yet in the cup final games.
Had .659 goals/game in the playoffs, but .739 in final games!

 

[vancityluongo]

Not sure what's more insane; dubbing Crosby top-5 or the first few posts of this thread claiming that Messier was his obstacle for reaching top-5.

This **** might actually start to get more annoying than the previous Toews love.

Sid is currently top-20 IMO, with an outside shot at top-10 if he keeps compiling points at a high level with good health (and knock on wood that he does). Above every player of the last 20 years, aside from Lidstrom and Jagr.

Top-5 would entail basically sustaining his peak levels of production (120+ points) over the next 4-5 years. Given his injury history, it's just a very, very high bar to imagine him reaching.