Sidney Crosby Top 5 player of all time

[Bertuzzzi44]

Hard to compare goalies and defenceman amongst forwards and difficult to compare forwards from different eras. IMO Ovechkin & Crosby should be slotted in the 5-10 range. Top 35 forwards all time...

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Howe
4. Richard
5. Beliveau
6. Crosby
7. Ovechkin
8. Jagr
9. Hull
10. Morenz
11. Mikita
12. Lafleur
13. Esposito
14. Messier
15. Clarke
16. Sakic
17. Yzerman
18. Trottier
19. Forsberg
20. Bossy
21. Lindsay
22. Hull Jr.
23. Selanne
24. Lalonde
25. Fedorov
26. Malkin
27. Bure
28. Lindros
29. Schmidt
30. H. Richard
31. Thornton
32. P. Kane
33. Francis
34. Dionne
35. Sundin/Modano/Kurri

 

[TooManyHumans]

Regardless those stats, there were more 100 point players in those years compared to Crosby's. I mean regardless scoring being up or down, there were not many players good enough to put up 100 points and compete with Crosby and Ovechkin for Art Ross, and now that there are more players putting up 100+ points, Crosby is no longer winning Art Ross and he's only 31 and not that old. That's my whole point.

This is just laughably silly. Of course it is harder for players to get to 100 points when it is harder to score in general.

 

[daver]

Sids career ppg without the 10-11,11-12 and 12-13 seasons where he scored at 1.6ppg is: 1.25ppg (with those seasons its 1.29ppg), which is 102.5point pace in 82 game season.

Boosted yes, but not that much. And still, 1.25ppg is clearly better than anyone in his generation.

Connor btw currently sits at 1.30ppg. Crazy.

The idea that Crosby's PPG was "boosted" because he didn't play the full season is ridiculous. He lost out twice on the chance to win Art Rosses likely in a dominant fashion.

His career PPG, and the clear gap over his peers, does not need any qualifying but if one chooses to play the "what if" game, he plays those missed games at a higher rate than 1.29, and has a higher PPG.

 

[WingsFan95]

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Orr
4. Howe
5. Richard
6. Beliveau
7. Crosby
8. Ovechkin
9. Jagr
10. Hull
11. Harvey

Hard to compare goalies and defenceman amongst forwards and difficult to compare forwards from different eras. IMO Ovechkin & Crosby should be slotted in the 5-10 range. Top 35 forwards all time...

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Howe
4. Richard
5. Beliveau
6. Crosby
7. Ovechkin
8. Jagr
9. Hull
10. Morenz
11. Mikita
12. Lafleur
13. Esposito
14. Messier

Okay, so riddle me this with the Crosby>Jagr thought process and we're talking about greatest players in terms of careers:

Hart Trophies
Crosby 2>1 (Jagr five Top 3 finishes outside his winning season, Crosby has four)
Lindsay Trophies
3-3
Art Ross Trophies
Jagr 5>2 (Jagr 2 additional runner-up finishes)
Cups
Crosby 3>2
All-Star Teams
Jagr 7>4 First Teams

And of course for career numbers Jagr finished 2nd in career points and 3rd in career goals.

And the second list has Messier way down despite his career numbers, 6 Cups, 2 Harts and 2 Lindsays and four 1st Teams.

 

[PensandCaps]

For a guy labeled as "secondary Sid" he has two rockets in the era of Ovechkin .

 

[Son Goku]

Okay, so riddle me this with the Crosby>Jagr thought process and we're talking about greatest players in terms of careers:

Hart Trophies
Crosby 2>1 (Jagr five Top 3 finishes outside his winning season, Crosby has four)
Lindsay Trophies
3-3
Art Ross Trophies
Jagr 5>2 (Jagr 2 additional runner-up finishes)
Cups
Crosby 3>2
All-Star Teams
Jagr 7>4 First Teams

And of course for career numbers Jagr finished 2nd in career points and 3rd in career goals.

And the second list has Messier way down despite his career numbers, 6 Cups, 2 Harts and 2 Lindsays and four 1st Teams.

forgot to add Crosby’s conn smythes and Richard’s. Jagr was largely a passenger in his cup years. Crosby has 4 smythe worthy runs in his career.

 

[Turin]

Okay, so riddle me this with the Crosby>Jagr thought process and we're talking about greatest players in terms of careers:

Hart Trophies
Crosby 2>1 (Jagr five Top 3 finishes outside his winning season, Crosby has four)
Lindsay Trophies
3-3
Art Ross Trophies
Jagr 5>2 (Jagr 2 additional runner-up finishes)
Cups
Crosby 3>2
All-Star Teams
Jagr 7>4 First Teams

And of course for career numbers Jagr finished 2nd in career points and 3rd in career goals.

And the second list has Messier way down despite his career numbers, 6 Cups, 2 Harts and 2 Lindsays and four 1st Teams.

Crosby has Jagr beat or matched in everything besides scoring titles and you and I both know that Crosby lost his peak to injuries/a lockout. Having watched both most Pens fans will say that the only thing Jagr had over Sid was a bigger reach.

 

[WingsFan95]

Crosby has Jagr beat or matched in everything besides scoring titles and you and I both know that Crosby lost his peak to injuries/a lockout. Having watched both most Pens fans will say that the only thing Jagr had over Sid was a bigger reach.

The injury part plays a big role in me picking Jagr way ahead of Crosby. Jagr was a behemoth and his longevity is a testament to that. He also transitioned to multiple teams. Crosby has had consistency in playing with some big pieces. Obviously Lemieux was great but Jagr also carried several teams. And let's not forget him leading a playoff team (47 wins) in scoring at what, 43?

Crosby has 3 Cups. None of them he wins without Malkin and good backing. Jagr has 2 Cups and 2 other times he helped his team deep. If he wins that 3rd Cup with Boston at age 40 still being productive, does that make a world of difference?

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

1. gretz
2. lemieux
3. orr
4. messier
5. crosby?

Recency bias is strong in this one.

 

[crosbyshow]

The injury part plays a big role in me picking Jagr way ahead of Crosby. Jagr was a behemoth and his longevity is a testament to that. He also transitioned to multiple teams. Crosby has had consistency in playing with some big pieces. Obviously Lemieux was great but Jagr also carried several teams. And let's not forget him leading a playoff team (47 wins) in scoring at what, 43?

Crosby has 3 Cups. None of them he wins without Malkin and good backing. Jagr has 2 Cups and 2 other times he helped his team deep. If he wins that 3rd Cup with Boston at age 40 still being productive, does that make a world of difference?

Crosby has 3 Cups. None of them he wins without Malkin and good backing. Jagr has 2 Cups and 2 other times he helped his team deep..........ok and Jagr ...none of them without Lemieux.....

 

[Chris18820]

The injury part plays a big role in me picking Jagr way ahead of Crosby. Jagr was a behemoth and his longevity is a testament to that. He also transitioned to multiple teams. Crosby has had consistency in playing with some big pieces. Obviously Lemieux was great but Jagr also carried several teams. And let's not forget him leading a playoff team (47 wins) in scoring at what, 43?

Crosby has 3 Cups. None of them he wins without Malkin and good backing. Jagr has 2 Cups and 2 other times he helped his team deep. If he wins that 3rd Cup with Boston at age 40 still being productive, does that make a world of difference?

You think Jagr would have won either of those cups without Mario? lol Mario had 78 points in 38 games during those cup runs. Jagr had 37 points in 45 games. Crosby has a better ppg in the playoffs than Malkin.

Your argument has no merit.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Hard to compare goalies and defenceman amongst forwards and difficult to compare forwards from different eras. IMO Ovechkin & Crosby should be slotted in the 5-10 range. Top 35 forwards all time...

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Howe
4. Richard
5. Beliveau
6. Crosby
7. Ovechkin
8. Jagr
9. Hull
10. Morenz
11. Mikita
12. Lafleur
13. Esposito
14. Messier
15. Clarke
16. Sakic
17. Yzerman
18. Trottier
19. Forsberg
20. Bossy
21. Lindsay
22. Hull Jr.
23. Selanne
24. Lalonde
25. Fedorov
26. Malkin
27. Bure
28. Lindros
29. Schmidt
30. H. Richard
31. Thornton
32. P. Kane
33. Francis
34. Dionne
35. Sundin/Modano/Kurri

Ovechkin and Crosby are ahead of Richard rather easily, so is Jagr for that matter

 

[edog37]

You clearly never watched those Pen teams that’s Jagr had. Crosby has had SIGNIFICANTLY better teams than Jagr did after Lemieux left and when he was hitting his peak. You can’t compare those teams and use it to benefit Crosby for “leading” his team. It’s much easier to “lead” with players like Malkin, Kessel, and Letang on your team, wouldn’t you say? I mean was Crosby suddenly not a great leader from 2010-15? No, he just needed more help. Leadership is Way emphasized and far to romanticized.

Crosby only has 1 more Hart than Jagr while having the same amount amount of Pearson’s. He was also a Hart Finalists 4 times and a Pearson Finalists 4 times from ‘95-‘01 while winning 5 Scoring titles having much greater competition overall than Crosby. He was clearly more dominant at his peak, and mainly without Lemieux on a inferior team.

Sid does have better playoff success than Jagr, who still is no slouch in that department.....but it’s honestly hard for anyone to say Crosby is clearly better than Jagr. It’s very close between them either way you try to spin it.

it’s the context of his “dominance” and although not a strong one.....it’s still very easy to dismiss the controversy that surrounded both and the lack of cementing his title.

Crosby has 2 smythes with Lemieux and Gretzky....that sounds and looks amazing, but Crosby didn’t win his in the same fashion as the others. Crosby never dominated like Howe, Orr, Gretzky, or Lemieux did overall, and IMO sits mixed with various others for that top 5 spot. If he is considered top 5, he’s still a clear distance from the big 4.

I’ve watched the Pens since 1979 so yeah saw Jagr play....many times... Jagr can’t hold a candle to Crosby

 

[Future GOAT]

The idea that Crosby's PPG was "boosted" because he didn't play the full season is ridiculous. He lost out twice on the chance to win Art Rosses likely in a dominant fashion.

His career PPG, and the clear gap over his peers, does not need any qualifying but if one chooses to play the "what if" game, he plays those missed games at a higher rate than 1.29, and has a higher PPG.

*Skewed* is a more appropriate and accurate description.

 

[Plural]

I’ve watched the Pens since 1979 so yeah saw Jagr play....many times... Jagr can’t hold a candle to Crosby

I don't know about that. Sid is better in my opinion too. But late 90's Jagr definitely could hold a candle to Sid.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Top 15 definitely, likely top 10.... top 5? No.

 

[bigdog16]

Top 15 definitely, likely top 10.... top 5? No.

Hes somewhere 5-7

 

[Midnight Judges]

For a guy labeled as "secondary Sid" he has two rockets in the era of Ovechkin .

The reason Secondary Sid is Secondary Sid, is because people compare Secondary Sid's secondary assists to Ovechkin's goals and pretend they have the same value.

No player in the history of the game, except for Secondary Sid, has ever relied on secondary assists in order to be called the best player of their generation.

 

[bobholly39]

Hard to compare goalies and defenceman amongst forwards and difficult to compare forwards from different eras. IMO Ovechkin & Crosby should be slotted in the 5-10 range. Top 35 forwards all time...

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Howe
4. Richard
5. Beliveau
6. Crosby
7. Ovechkin
8. Jagr
9. Hull
10. Morenz
11. Mikita
12. Lafleur
13. Esposito
14. Messier
15. Clarke
16. Sakic
17. Yzerman
18. Trottier
19. Forsberg
20. Bossy
21. Lindsay
22. Hull Jr.
23. Selanne
24. Lalonde
25. Fedorov
26. Malkin
27. Bure
28. Lindros
29. Schmidt
30. H. Richard
31. Thornton
32. P. Kane
33. Francis
34. Dionne
35. Sundin/Modano/Kurri

I really like your list. It's not perfect by any means - but overall, solid. One name that jumps out as way too low is Malkin. Malkin should be very close to Forsberg all-time, arguably ahead of him by now.

*Skewed* is a more appropriate and accurate description.

I think you're looking at the math wrong . His shortened seasons *hurt* his career ppg, they don't help it.

Crosby's career ppg is 1.29.

In 2011-2013 his ppgs was 1.61, 1.68 and 1.56. Now if you're saying that his ppg within those very seasons would go down in a full year - sure, that's sensible. It's not for sure true, it's possible he sustains those rates all season long as this was his peak level of play - but saying they go down some makes sense.

But for his career ppg to suffer - his ppg during the rest of those seasons would have to dip below his career ppg of 1.29. Considering he's averaging 1.6 or so - the idea that he would all of a sudden play the rest of all 3 seasons at below 1.29 seems super far fetched. Even if he goes down to 1.4, or 1.45 ppg during the rest of those seasons, it helps his career ppg rise higher, it doesn't bring it down.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Sid and Ovie are definitely in the top 10 all time. I think the opinions of the masses will catch up with this. Maybe when nostalgia kicks in for some of us?

For all the neat discussions, the history of hockey forum is a disaster and their rankings will not age well (to put it mildly). They think there are 5-7 players from the 1950's and 1960's who are all superior to the best players from the 2000's and 2010's. This, despite the talent pool having become international (not just Canada) and tripled, quadroupled, or more.

So the HoH forum would have you believe Canada 16M population put out way more high end talent than Canada 36M population.

Sounds far-fetched.

Now add in the USA, plus Europe, plus Russia (plus Canada population 36M).

Now it's mind-bogglingly stupid.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Undisputed best player of the 21st century, which now occupies close to 20% of the league's entire history.

What? He didn't play the first handful of years of it. What kind of meaningless ESPN stat sorcery is this?

the best in the toughest era

best of all time no doubt

ALL HE DOES IS WIN WIN WIN NO MATTER WHAT

Remember when the best players could have their heads removed cleanly off their shoulders the way Modano's was against the Rangers?

Sure, THIS is the toughest era though...

The one full of absolute mediocrity outside of maybe 5 teams each year. Definitely the toughest.

I can accept Crosby being in the top 8 pretty easy. Top 5 is debatable imo but some of these arguments are abysmal

 

[Yackiberg8]

The reason Secondary Sid is Secondary Sid, is because people compare Secondary Sid's secondary assists to Ovechkin's goals and pretend they have the same value.

No player in the history of the game, except for Secondary Sid, has ever relied on secondary assists in order to be called the best player of their generation.

Primary PPG since 2007 (couldn’t find data from prior on Corsica):

Crosby = 0.97
Malkin = 0.92
Ovechkin = 0.90
Stamkos = 0.84
Kane = 0.80

Next argument please.

 

[george14]

Sid and Ovie are definitely in the top 10 all time. I think the opinions of the masses will catch up with this. Maybe when nostalgia kicks in for some of us?

For all the neat discussions, the history of hockey forum is a disaster and their rankings will not age well (to put it mildly). They think there are 5-7 players from the 1950's and 1960's who are all superior to the best players from the 2000's and 2010's. This, despite the talent pool having become international (not just Canada) and tripled, quadroupled, or more.

So the HoH forum would have you believe Canada 16M population put out way more high end talent than Canada 36M population.

Sounds far-fetched.

Now add in the USA, plus Europe, plus Russia (plus Canada population 36M).

Now it's mind-bogglingly stupid.

Ah yeah, the classic "I'm going to try and be reasonable even though all I do is post Ovechkin propaganda" bit.

 

[Sam Spade]

Primary PPG since 2007 (couldn’t find data from prior on Corsica):

Crosby = 0.97
Malkin = 0.92
Ovechkin = 0.90
Stamkos = 0.84
Kane = 0.80

Next argument please.

Post his Primary PPG when he is done playing, let's see what it looks like then.

 

[Yackiberg8]

Post his Primary PPG when he is done playing, let's see what it looks like then.

How is that relevant?

Do you anticipate the others on this list passing him in primary PPG at the end of all of their careers?