Sidney Crosby Top 5 player of all time

[StoneHands]

I have him in the 5-10 range personally. I know most people hate Crosby, myself included, but putting guys like Yzerman and Sakic over him is just laughable and there's really no reasonable argument to be made. Any forward without an Art Ross or Rocket are instantly out of the conversation for top 5 in my opinion.

 

[Shaman464]

Both those guys never even won an Art Ross...

Yzerman had the unfortunate luck to come into the league at the same time as the freaks were dominating.

 

[iamjs]

No idea why you'd bold Lidstrom. He definitely was a better player than Crosby is. Crosby is a generational player, and definitely one of the best to play the game, but Lidstrom redefined how his position was played, and did it at a time when European players were still less respected than North American players.

because on most lists, Lidstrom is listed outside of the top 10. I think that's a fairly valid reason.

If you can find me some lists that were not originated from the Detroit Free Press that show otherwise, please share and I will reconsider my stance.

Not saying I'll change my mind, but I'll at least read it over and see if it convinces me.

 

[TheGuiminator]

****, is it not obvious to everyone that scoring was up this year? He had the 2nd best PPG in 16/17, marginally behind McDavid. This year he was 6th in PPG. He was not as productive.

You have provided zero evidence that his production would differ with different linemates because there is none. If he played with 3rd liners this year, there is no reason to think he doesn't hit 100 points. Great players get their points one way or another.

In any given year, Crosby has been an elite playmaker or goalscorer, elite on the PP or at ES. His numbers speak for themselves. That he has been elite while carrying players lower on his team's depth charts, which frees up talent to create team depth, while playing a 2-way role rather than an all out offensive one, adds value to those numbers.

It's true to some extent, but you're insane if you think that Crosby would have the same amount of points playing with Patrick Kane than Matt Cooke.

Thing is, Crosby DOES produce no matter who's playing with him, but having a good finisher on his side (like Guentzel) will likely HELP his offensive production.

You want evidence ? Last year (17-18) was a relatively high scoring season and Sid ''only'' scored 89 points. Once Guentzel emerged as an elite goalscorer in the 2018 playoffs, both him and Crosby's stats inflated. And this season, they kept on going as Guentzel scored 40 goals and Sid 100 pts

 

[Incognito]

Top 5 at all positions? No.
Top 5 skaters? No.
Top 5 forwards? No.

Maybe Top 10 forwards.

Howe, Richard, both Hulls, Jagr, Gretz, Lemieux, Esposito, Bossy, Messier, Ovechkin, Fedorov. All those guys are ahead to me. Beliveau too. But I guess you could slot him ahead of Brett Hull, Fedorov and Bossy to get him #10.

I guess I don't think the Ovechkin-Crosby debate in NHL terms is all that close. Ovechkin has 8 Rockets for heaven's sake, 1 more Hart, 1 less Art Ross and 2 less Cups which is a largely team aspect.

Pretty much everyone agrees that it is close though. And you have to remember that part of the reason why it is so close is because of all the injuries Crosby has sustained in his career.

If not for Crosby getting hurt in 2010/2011 and 2012/2013, he would have 1 more Hart than Ovechkin (2006/2007, 2010/2011, 2012/2013, and 2013/2014 for Crosby versus 2007/2008, 2008/2009, and 2009/2010 for Ovechkin).

If not for Crosby getting hurt in 2010/2011 and 2012/2013, he would have 2 more Art Ross trophies than Ovechkin (2006/2007, 2010/2011, 2012/2013, and 2013/2014 for Crosby versus 2007/2008 and 2009/2010 for Ovechkin).

Crosby would also have 4 Ted Lindsays to Ovechkin's 3 if not for injuries (2006/2007, 2010/2011, 2012/2013, and 2013/2014 versus 2007/2008, 2008/2009, and 2009/2010 for Ovechkin).

Ovechkin obviously dominates the Rocket Richard race, but that's no surprise. He's a winger, he's got a goal scorer's mentality, he's a shoot-first type of player, and he's the best there's ever been at that particular skill (scoring goals).

I'm not trying to take anything away from Ovechkin, because he's an all-time great winger, one of the top 10 players ever, and the GOAT goal scorer. But it sounds like the main reason you have Ovechkin ranked above Crosby is simply because Ovechkin has been more fortunate health-wise, and not because he's the superior player.

 

[HockeySniper]

Crosby is great but he’s not even a top 5 foward all time never mind player. Are people forgetting about defensemen and goalies?

 

[Red Dread]

Crosby is great but he’s not even a top 5 foward all time never mind player. Are people forgetting about defensemen and goalies?

Yes.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Forsberg's PPG finishes (min. of 36 games and no Mario):

1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 5, 5, 9, 11, 17

Crosby's:

1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 13

Remove the duplicates:

Forsberg:

5, 5, 9, 11, 17

Crosby:

1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 13

I don't see how this is relevant. I'm not saying Forsberg > Crosby, I'm saying that if you're going to use the injuries excuse to give him phantom Lindsays and Ross' that he "totally would have gotten if he was healthy", you can't also use his career PPG in the same argument because it's clearly boosted by 30-game stretches that weren't going to be sustained for 82 games.

 

[Fantomas]

Pretty much everyone agrees that it is close though. And you have to remember that part of the reason why it is so close is because of all the injuries Crosby has sustained in his career.

If not for Crosby getting hurt in 2010/2011 and 2012/2013, he would have 1 more Hart than Ovechkin (2006/2007, 2010/2011, 2012/2013, and 2013/2014 for Crosby versus 2007/2008, 2008/2009, and 2009/2010 for Ovechkin).

If not for Crosby getting hurt in 2010/2011 and 2012/2013, he would have 2 more Art Ross trophies than Ovechkin (2006/2007, 2010/2011, 2012/2013, and 2013/2014 for Crosby versus 2007/2008 and 2009/2010 for Ovechkin).

Crosby would also have 4 Ted Lindsays to Ovechkin's 3 if not for injuries (2006/2007, 2010/2011, 2012/2013, and 2013/2014 versus 2007/2008, 2008/2009, and 2009/2010 for Ovechkin).

Ovechkin obviously dominates the Rocket Richard race, but that's no surprise. He's a winger, he's got a goal scorer's mentality, he's a shoot-first type of player, and he's the best there's ever been at that particular skill (scoring goals).

I'm not trying to take anything away from Ovechkin, because he's an all-time great winger, one of the top 10 players ever, and the GOAT goal scorer. But it sounds like the main reason you have Ovechkin ranked above Crosby is simply because Ovechkin has been more fortunate health-wise, and not because he's the superior player.

Didn't Ovechkin miss out on a) the Hart, b) Richard and 3) the Art Ross in '09-10 because he got hurt and due to a 2-game suspension? This is a pretty huge "what if" to leave out if you're going to go there.

He missed 10 games. Lost the Richard by one goal (51 to 50), the Ross by 3 points and the Hart by 6 votes to Henrik Sedin while winning the Pearson.

 

[nowhereman]

How can a guy with only two Art Rosses be the fifth best player of all time?

If you can only be the leading point getter twice I don’t see how you can even be in the conversation

So who's a better candidate? Beliveau? 1 Art Ross trophy. Maurice Richard? 0 Art Ross trophies. Bobby Hull? 3 Art Ross trophies.

Those three players are generally regarded as top 10 players of all time (mostly 5-8) and they have a combined 4 Art Ross trophies. And let's not pretend bad luck hasn't been a huge factor in Crosby's career. Hell, the guy broke his jaw with a puck three weeks away from lapping the field in the scoring race. He was just as good as any of those three guys I mentioned above and, even with injuries, has a similar trophy case.

 

[daver]

It's true to some extent, but you're insane if you think that Crosby would have the same amount of points playing with Patrick Kane than Matt Cooke.

Thing is, Crosby DOES produce no matter who's playing with him, but having a good finisher on his side (like Guentzel) will likely HELP his offensive production.

You want evidence ? Last year (17-18) was a relatively high scoring season and Sid ''only'' scored 89 points. Once Guentzel emerged as an elite goalscorer in the 2018 playoffs, both him and Crosby's stats inflated. And this season, they kept on going as Guentzel scored 40 goals and Sid 100 pts

This isn't proof, this is a textbook causation equals correlation perspective. The season he had prior to 17/18 proves that he didn't need a good finisher to produce recently.

 

[pabst blue ribbon]

Regardless those stats, there were more 100 point players in those years compared to Crosby's. I mean regardless scoring being up or down, there were not many players good enough to put up 100 points and compete with Crosby and Ovechkin for Art Ross, and now that there are more players putting up 100+ points, Crosby is no longer winning Art Ross and he's only 31 and not that old. That's my whole point.

The Art Ross winner in Yzerman's prime years had a lot more points than the Art Ross winners in Crosby's prime years. More players reached 100 points because league scoring rates were significantly higher in Yzerman's prime years. In spite of playing in a significantly higher scoring era Yzerman's PPG is marginally better than Crosby's if you compare it at this point in their careers.

 

[Pengwins]

The Art Ross winner in Yzerman's prime years had a lot more points than the Art Ross winners in Crosby's prime years. More players reached 100 points because league scoring rates were significantly higher in Yzerman's prime years. In spite of playing in a significantly higher scoring era Yzerman's PPG is marginally better than Crosby's if you compare it at this point in their careers.

Excuses. Crosby is basically a better version of Yzerman

 

[Incognito]

Didn't Ovechkin miss out on a) the Hart, b) Richard and 3) the Art Ross in '09-10 because he got hurt and due to a 2-game suspension? This is a pretty huge "what if" to leave out if you're going to go there.

He missed 10 games. Lost the Richard by one goal (51 to 50), the Ross by 3 points and the Hart by 6 votes to Henrik Sedin while winning the Pearson.

Yes, he did, and if you check my post again, you'll see that I gave Ovechkin credit for those awards that he would have won in 2009/2010 if it hadn't been for the time he missed. I used the exact same rules for both Crosby and Ovechkin in my post.

 

[pabst blue ribbon]

Excuses. Crosby is basically a better version of Yzerman

My post was in favor of Crosby reread it

 

[Fantomas]

Yes, he did, and if you check my post again, you'll see that I gave Ovechkin credit for those awards that he would have won in 2009/2010 if it hadn't been for the time he missed. I used the exact same rules for both Crosby and Ovechkin in my post.

Okay, I kinda got lost in all those numbers there. Keep in mind that many of Crosby's unfinished seasons were quite short, which means as samples there are quite small.

Although I do think he was on pace for something really special in '10-11.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Okay, I kinda got lost in all those numbers there. Keep in mind that many of Crosby's unfinished seasons were quite short, which means as samples there are quite small.

Although I do think he was on pace for something really special in '10-11.

Which ones were short that he's being given credit for? Possibly the 41 game season when he was running away with both the goals and points lead, but the lockout year he played in 36 of the 48 games and was leading the league by a large margin at the time he got hurt. It's not like he only played the first 20 games and was leading by 5 points when he got injured, so the scoring title was in doubt.

 

[Fantomas]

Note to self: Don't engage in hypotheticals and get dragged into pointless arguments.

 

[chethejet]

Crosby has been the player everyone measures themselves against. He has been for 13 years. All the players mentioned as good as or considered in the conversation simply never had the kind of pressure that Crosby has. Only truly great players experience that level of pressure. Gretzky, Mario just were superior to everyone else and so is Crosby. Now McDavid will emerge but he has to get the Oilers into the SC mix to advance to that level in his career.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I don't see how this is relevant. I'm not saying Forsberg > Crosby, I'm saying that if you're going to use the injuries excuse to give him phantom Lindsays and Ross' that he "totally would have gotten if he was healthy", you can't also use his career PPG in the same argument because it's clearly boosted by 30-game stretches that weren't going to be sustained for 82 games.

Yes, Crosby's career ppg is boosted by his absolute peak, just like every player ever. Except his less so, since he played 40% of the games during his peak.

You seem to be arguing that his ppg during the remainder of those seasons would have dropped to below his career average, which shows a lack of understanding of statistics or logic in general.

 

[Pay Carl]

So who's a better candidate? Beliveau? 1 Art Ross trophy. Maurice Richard? 0 Art Ross trophies. Bobby Hull? 3 Art Ross trophies.

Those three players are generally regarded as top 10 players of all time (mostly 5-8) and they have a combined 4 Art Ross trophies. And let's not pretend bad luck hasn't been a huge factor in Crosby's career. Hell, the guy broke his jaw with a puck three weeks away from lapping the field in the scoring race. He was just as good as any of those three guys I mentioned above and, even with injuries, has a similar trophy case.

You don’t get to use bad luck as your justification

Plenty of guys have had worse luck. Lemieux, Orr, Bossy, Neeley, etc

 

[FinProspects]

Sids career ppg without the 10-11,11-12 and 12-13 seasons where he scored at 1.6ppg is: 1.25ppg (with those seasons its 1.29ppg), which is 102.5point pace in 82 game season.

Boosted yes, but not that much. And still, 1.25ppg is clearly better than anyone in his generation.

Connor btw currently sits at 1.30ppg. Crazy.

 

[FinProspects]

So who's a better candidate? Beliveau? 1 Art Ross trophy. Maurice Richard? 0 Art Ross trophies. Bobby Hull? 3 Art Ross trophies.

Those three players are generally regarded as top 10 players of all time (mostly 5-8) and they have a combined 4 Art Ross trophies. And let's not pretend bad luck hasn't been a huge factor in Crosby's career. Hell, the guy broke his jaw with a puck three weeks away from lapping the field in the scoring race. He was just as good as any of those three guys I mentioned above and, even with injuries, has a similar trophy case.

Its funny how big impact those 12 missed games have in Sids legacy (for the trophy counters I mean).

He would have 3x Hart,Art, which for many people would be "enough" to be ranked higher.

Now he has only 2 Hart/Arts, which is not enough.

Damn, those missed 12 games and 5 points!

 

[Gabe the Babe]

Roy as a goaltender was infinitely more valuable than Crosby. Record 3 Smythes and most wins in the playoffs.



No kidding.



Ovechkin has 8 goal scoring titles. That's all-time dominance. Crosby has none of that. Injuries are part of the game. Even so Lemieux and Bossy did a hell of a lot more in their shortened careers. I think if Crosby is on 1 ring this isn't even a discussion.

His dominance is nowhere near numerous other forwards let alone skaters.

Number-wise. Maybe not as dominant. But like I said in today’s hockey there’s so much parity and you got dudes like Kucherov coming out of nowhere and doing what they do year in year out.

I believe we won’t see dominance like there was in the past for a long long time. And that won’t be because a knock on the quality of players. Mostly just the era they play in.

Gordie Howe had a 4 year run of top scorer ft a long career of consistent great play. Sid had arguably 5-6 straight years where he would have finished 1st with a few more sprinkled in through the years.

Injuries happen. I get it. My favorite player of all time is Peter Forsberg. I wish he could’ve been healthy his whole career. But sometimes you just gotta go with what you see. Not only numbers. And in Sid I see one of the two best players in the world every year. Since he was 18.

 

[FinProspects]

Ovechkin has 8 goal scoring titles. That's all-time dominance. Crosby has none of that. Injuries are part of the game. Even so Lemieux and Bossy did a hell of a lot more in their shortened careers. I think if Crosby is on 1 ring this isn't even a discussion.

His dominance is nowhere near numerous other forwards let alone skaters.

Bossy had a shortened career but looking at his stats, he played near full seasons for 9 years straight. Sid missed 50% of the games during his absolute peak (3 seasons). Its different - I think we saw Bossys peak.
Sid's, not so much.

Mario/Orr I dont even compare to Sid, since even if Sid was healthy, he wouldnt touch those guys.