Short on talent, Kings are in need of overhaul

[kings11]

and you get what?

and you build around who?

you have no answers to this beyond "prospects"

Well let me take a stab at it... trade Muzzin, Martinez, Carter, Toffoli and Lewis....

Muzzin - nets you a top prospect and a 1st .. or ... best case scenario a Brayden Point type player

Martinez - with teams so desperate for Dmen, you could possibly land a defenseman prospect or even a 1st

Carter - if healthy, you get a 1st, young player and top prospect... TOR's 2018 1st, Liljegren + for example

Toffoli - 2018 1st and a young player

Lewis - usually i'd samba 2nd/3rd but with his pedigree and defensive impact we could possibly and a early 2nd or possibly a late 1st... think Hanzal -lite

Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, Quick... stay because of their salaries/regression/age/etc...they would also serve as mentors for the younger players while possibly contending for a wildcard spot...

Pearson - Kopitar - Brown
Kempe - Vilardi - Point
Iafallo - Amadio - Brodzinski/xxxxx
Kubalik/Porkhorkin/Andreoff/Clifford/Wagner/veteran

Forbort - Doughty
Phaneuf - LaDue
Gravel - Fantenberg
MacDermid - veteran

with Kale Clague, and Timothy Liljegren in Ontario

Quick
Campbell/Petersen

Plus a poop ton of cap space to sign a impact Dman or Center... Tavares, Carlson, Green, and a few others... or trade for an impact guy(OEL, EK, Skinner, Faulk...etc) with all the additional assets, think Dallas Cowboys/Hershel Walker type impact but the time and the needed market is now...

 

[deaderhead28]

and you get what?

and you build around who?

you have no answers to this beyond "prospects"

I guess if you were on the main boards reading what other Kings fans or other clubs were mock trading,you would understand what the plan was.But you go ahead and assume.

 

[deaderhead28]

Well let me take a stab at it... trade Muzzin, Martinez, Carter, Toffoli and Lewis....

Muzzin - nets you a top prospect and a 1st .. or ... best case scenario a Brayden Point type player

Martinez - with teams so desperate for Dmen, you could possibly land a defenseman prospect or even a 1st

Carter - if healthy, you get a 1st, young player and top prospect... TOR's 2018 1st, Liljegren + for example

Toffoli - 2018 1st and a young player

Lewis - usually i'd samba 2nd/3rd but with his pedigree and defensive impact we could possibly and a early 2nd or possibly a late 1st... think Hanzal -lite

Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, Quick... stay because of their salaries/regression/age/etc...they would also serve as mentors for the younger players while possibly contending for a wildcard spot...

Pearson - Kopitar - Brown
Kempe - Vilardi - Point
Iafallo - Amadio - Brodzinski/xxxxx
Kubalik/Porkhorkin/Andreoff/Clifford/Wagner/veteran

Forbort - Doughty
Phaneuf - LaDue
Gravel - Fantenberg
MacDermid - veteran

with Kale Clague, and Timothy Liljegren in Ontario

Quick
Campbell/Petersen

Plus a poop ton of cap space to sign a impact Dman or Center... Tavares, Carlson, Green, and a few others... or trade for an impact guy(OEL, EK, Skinner, Faulk...etc) with all the additional assets, think Dallas Cowboys/Hershel Walker type impact but the time and the needed market is now...

You deserve a fist bump.You've been reading.

 

[yankeeking]

While the author mentions Carter, the reality is that we lost our leading scorer from the previous year and it's a steep hurdle for any NHL team to recover from. I'm glad we're still in the mix.

He mentions carter was here last season and we didn't make the playoffs but he failed to mention we didn't have quick for 69 games , he mentions brown will never score again , geez where have heard that . We are hearing Blake is trying to work a hockey deal for a young winger for one of the dman and we are getting carter back soon so let's see where that goes and if we still fail they can start the rebuild or reboot at the draft if nec., whether or not Blake can make a deal just getting carter back realigns the top six and Thompson winning 10 percent more face offs in the bottom six can only help ......someone asked earlier who is Adam G. , I ask has anyone seen Adam and kings17 in the same room? Just saying

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Still will never understand the understatement of "this team should perform regardless of Carter being gone." That's a f***ing 60 point center. Many teams hardly have one of those. Imagine losing one. Even the glorious almighty Tampa Bay missed the playoffs last year because they couldn't weather injuries. It's a pretty big deal. Call it a flawed roster or whatever you want, we're staying afloat despite missing key players. So many of the teams in front of us have been close to perfectly healthy. I'm looking forward to a healthy Carter making a HUGE impact on this roster by bumping Kempe down a line to 3C or to a wing. Teams dream of adding a 60 point player at the deadline, we're a bubble team getting one for free.

I dont' think it's smart for a 1st year Gm to even think about tearing anything apart before seeing what he has at near full power.

 

[KINGS17]

I'm not. But it's why a full season should be spent evaluating. A team shouldn't just "blow it all up" after going for it for years.

I think you find I'm not too different in my philosophy

I know you can support the overall philosophy I espouse, but remember this narrative has changed. Before the season Luc Robitaille advertised this team as a contender, because they were still going to play top notch defense while opening up the offense to score more goals. Turns out he was wrong.

If Kings management is doing an honest evaluation, there should be some difficult decisions made at the deadline as well as in the off season.

 

[KINGS17]

Still will never understand the understatement of "this team should perform regardless of Carter being gone." That's a ****ing 60 point center. Many teams hardly have one of those. Imagine losing one. Even the glorious almighty Tampa Bay missed the playoffs last year because they couldn't weather injuries. It's a pretty big deal. Call it a flawed roster or whatever you want, we're staying afloat despite missing key players. So many of the teams in front of us have been close to perfectly healthy. I'm looking forward to a healthy Carter making a HUGE impact on this roster by bumping Kempe down a line to 3C or to a wing. Teams dream of adding a 60 point player at the deadline, we're a bubble team getting one for free.

I dont' think it's smart for a 1st year Gm to even think about tearing anything apart before seeing what he has at near full power.

I don't understand why you continue to compare the Kings to Tampa Bay. Did Tampa Bay only win one playoff game over the last three seasons with most of their best players in the lineup. When you look at in from that perspective, there is no comparison.

Now you will say Quick wasn't in the lineup last season, but other teams survive major injuries if they are deep enough. More injuries are part of the deal with an aging roster. Many people here seem to assume some of the top players will continue to perform at current levels for many years to come.

 

[Bandit]

I don't know why the Kings shouldn't be compared to Tampa Bay. Why do only the last 3 seasons count? The Lightning have zero Stanley Cups in 13 years, Kings have two. Anyone can cherrypick stats and time frames to suit their argument.

 

[Bandit]

But so what? Being a contender is the name of the game and teams should try to be a contender as often as possible. You presume a lot. Watching doesn't piss me off ever. I am a Kings fan and a hockey fan. I enjoy the game. I make observations based on what I see on the ice and off the ice. Analyzing the moves teams make is part of the fun. It's just lately the Kings have made a lot of bonehead moves.

For me it will always be entertainment, but I am not going to spend 2 hours in traffic, and pay for tickets to watch this type of team. I can do that just fine from my couch at home and enjoy it just fine. When the Kings do something to get me excited about the possibility of contending again, I will be back at Staples quite often.

I'm not presuming, that comment about being pissed off wasn't directed at you specifically. Just saying some people treat what's going on here as if their life depends on it when in reality it just a game. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Doughty will bolt if the team rebuilds.Make a decision to rebuild then sell high with Doughty if you can't resign him this summer.If he wants to stay then resign the man.Kings are stuck with Kopi's contract same with Quicks unless Kings gives up a lot to have another team to take those deals.

But so what....if the Kings rebuild, what's the point of keeping Doughty? Imagine what we could get for him.

 

[King'sPawn]

I know you can support the overall philosophy I espouse, but remember this narrative has changed. Before the season Luc Robitaille advertised this team as a contender, because they were still going to play top notch defense while opening up the offense to score more goals. Turns out he was wrong.

If Kings management is doing an honest evaluation, there should be some difficult decisions made at the deadline as well as in the off season.

He had to label it a contender. The Kings have the same core they won the cup twice with. The expectation was more character and maturing would be brought out.

Which is equally why they have to spend a full season "treading water" to see which players answered the call/challenge. Kopitar has. Doughty has (on the ice). Quick has, even though he's slumped a lot lately. Gaborik didn't. Brown's been inconsistent.

The point is, there were two very different Kings this season: the Kings who won 8 straight games after losing Carter, and the Kings who found new ways to lose.

Deciding how to steer the ship and feel you can say "this team can never win a cup" or "these veterans are ready for a rebuild" without giving them a chance to make the playoffs while not going all in is more reactionary than honest.

Businesses have goals. Their goal this season was to make the playoffs and contend. Becoming sellers before the deadline is a direct contradiction to that goal.

If they do not make the playoffs after changing coaches, management, and letting the team take over, I am 100% in agreement of making more changes. It's a process. Let's not forget Dean brought in veterans his first season, too.

 

[kings11]

Can you imagine for a second if they traded some vets and went with younger, hungrier players and all of a sudden they played better and started winning done game .....

Keep in mind, I’m including some of the young players we’re likely getting back ....

 

[Sol]

Article is hot garbage. And a healthy Kings team is in the playoffs. Lastly if needes be, Kings can pull off a quick retool

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I don't understand why you continue to compare the Kings to Tampa Bay. Did Tampa Bay only win one playoff game over the last three seasons with most of their best players in the lineup. When you look at in from that perspective, there is no comparison.

Now you will say Quick wasn't in the lineup last season, but other teams survive major injuries if they are deep enough. More injuries are part of the deal with an aging roster. Many people here seem to assume some of the top players will continue to perform at current levels for many years to come.

No, but that makes it even worse, so thanks for helping my point along--even TB got injuries and couldn't make the playoffs. After being a juggernaut as you've described them. Appreciate the assist

 

[KINGS17]

No, but that makes it even worse, so thanks for helping my point along--even TB got injuries and couldn't make the playoffs. After being a juggernaut as you've described them. Appreciate the assist

My point regarding TB doesn't help your argument at all. The King are nothing like TB, there is no comparison. The Kings have some injuries. Older players get injured more often, especially in the case of Jonathan Quick who relies on his athletic ability to separate himself from the pack when it comes to being successful.

The Kings need to start a rebuild because their top players are getting older and the value of the current roster assets are depreciating at an accelerated rate. Some of these things are not like the others:

Quick (age 32) - Vasilevskiy (age 23)

Kopitar (age 30) - Stamkos (age 27)

This group:

Brown (age 33)
Iafallo (age 24)
Carter (age 33)
Toffoli (age 25)
Pearson (age 25)

vs This group:

Kucherov (age 24)
Namestnikov (age 25)
Johnson (age 27)
Gourde (age 26)
Point (age 21)
Killorn (age 28)

Defense:

Doughty (age 28) - Hedman (age 27) it's close enough to be a wash, but you can argue Doughty is better. The balance of what Tampa Bay has on the blue line is easily better this season and going forward over the next several years.

So no, it's not a valid comparison. In spite of you trying to get cute with it, I didn't make your point for you at all. The Lightning had some injuries last season and missed the playoffs. The Kings could be completely healthy and it would still be a struggle for them to make the playoffs. When the Lightning are healthy they are dominant.

So every time you or anyone else tries to draw a comparison between the Kings and the Lightning, and I call BS, you can refer to this post.

I know how to make this argument, because it's the same one I put forward to Canuck fans 6 or 7 years ago, only in favor of the Kings. I bet you agreed with me wholeheartedly too.

 

[KingsFan7824]

The Kings need to start a rebuild

But they're not going to. Not yet. They've invested too much in basically unmovable players at this point to choose that. Should Doughty leave, and they don't replace him with Karlsson, then perhaps they're forced to start a rebuild.

Robitaille can say whatever he wants. Look what they're doing. They're completely wait and see with this roster after they came up small in 2015 and 2016. Lombardi went after Chara, and Gaborik, and Drury, and Hossa, but we've said that they probably didn't have an actual shot at those guys. So why do it? To get people to buy tickets? Hey, look at that, our name was attached to a big name player! See, we're trying to win. Not just stealing your money for 5 years, with no guarantee of anything at the end of those 5 years.

The Kings will most likely not win the Cup again, no matter what they do. They will try to stay relevant for as long as they can though. If a foundational player chooses to leave, and not because of money, and they're unable to come close to replacing him, then they can't hide behind the names on the jersey anymore.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

My point regarding TB doesn't help your argument at all. The King are nothing like TB, there is no comparison. The Kings have some injuries. Older players get injured more often, especially in the case of Jonathan Quick who relies on his athletic ability to separate himself from the pack when it comes to being successful.

The Kings need to start a rebuild because their top players are getting older and the value of the current roster assets are depreciating at an accelerated rate. Some of these things are not like the others:

Quick (age 32) - Vasilevskiy (age 23)

Kopitar (age 30) - Stamkos (age 27)

This group:

Brown (age 33)
Iafallo (age 24)
Carter (age 33)
Toffoli (age 25)
Pearson (age 25)

vs This group:

Kucherov (age 24)
Namestnikov (age 25)
Johnson (age 27)
Gourde (age 26)
Point (age 21)
Killorn (age 28)

Defense:

Doughty (age 28) - Hedman (age 27) it's close enough to be a wash, but you can argue Doughty is better. The balance of what Tampa Bay has on the blue line is easily better this season and going forward over the next several years.

So no, it's not a valid comparison. In spite of you trying to get cute with it, I didn't make your point for you at all. The Lightning had some injuries last season and missed the playoffs. The Kings could be completely healthy and it would still be a struggle for them to make the playoffs. When the Lightning are healthy they are dominant.

So every time you or anyone else tries to draw a comparison between the Kings and the Lightning, and I call BS, you can refer to this post.

I know how to make this argument, because it's the same one I put forward to Canuck fans 6 or 7 years ago, only in favor of the Kings. I bet you agreed with me wholeheartedly too.

Despite the window dressing, that post that you've been apparently saving because of my Tampa Bay references strengthens my point even more.

No, I'm not saying the Kings are Tampa Bay. I've never remotely said the Kings are like Tampa Bay. All I've said is that like Tampa Bay, the Kings' injuries hurt their playoff hopes. You continue to paint TB as an unstoppable juggernaut and that's fine, I'm not disagreeing with that, and I'm not saying the Kings are in the same stratosphere--I'm saying that even this amazing team that you detailed had a few injuries and those few injuries made them miss the playoffs. You'd clearly agree with me that we're a lesser team suffering a major injury, if those kinds of things can keep a Cup Finalist out of the playoffs, why is it shocking that us missing a 60-point center is? I know it's inconvenient to the "Kings are actually awful and should be blown up" narrative but missing Carter is, in fact, a massive hole.

Frankly, none of the rest of the stuff matters at all, Stamkos has missed giant chunks of two seasons as well, guess he's over the hill and should be taken out to pasture like those clowns in the first group. Tyler Johnson too. Hedman is about to fall off the cliff as well. Edit: Namestnikov was just hurt too, better remove him from the list, he's starting to be injury prone.

 

[KINGS17]

But they're not going to. Not yet. They've invested too much in basically unmovable players at this point to choose that. Should Doughty leave, and they don't replace him with Karlsson, then perhaps they're forced to start a rebuild.

Robitaille can say whatever he wants. Look what they're doing. They're completely wait and see with this roster after they came up small in 2015 and 2016. Lombardi went after Chara, and Gaborik, and Drury, and Hossa, but we've said that they probably didn't have an actual shot at those guys. So why do it? To get people to buy tickets? Hey, look at that, our name was attached to a big name player! See, we're trying to win. Not just stealing your money for 5 years, with no guarantee of anything at the end of those 5 years.

The Kings will most likely not win the Cup again, no matter what they do. They will try to stay relevant for as long as they can though. If a foundational player chooses to leave, and not because of money, and they're unable to come close to replacing him, then they can't hide behind the names on the jersey anymore.

Judge it on what they do, not on what they say.

The Kings are already irrelevant.

 

[KINGS17]

Despite the window dressing, that post that you've been apparently saving because of my Tampa Bay references strengthens my point even more.

No, I'm not saying the Kings are Tampa Bay. I've never remotely said the Kings are like Tampa Bay. All I've said is that like Tampa Bay, the Kings' injuries hurt their playoff hopes. You continue to paint TB as an unstoppable juggernaut and that's fine, I'm not disagreeing with that, and I'm not saying the Kings are in the same stratosphere--I'm saying that even this amazing team that you detailed had a few injuries and those few injuries made them miss the playoffs. You'd clearly agree with me that we're a lesser team suffering a major injury, if those kinds of things can keep a Cup Finalist out of the playoffs, why is it shocking that us missing a 60-point center is? I know it's inconvenient to the "Kings are actually awful and should be blown up" narrative but missing Carter is, in fact, a massive hole.

Frankly, none of the rest of the stuff matters at all, Stamkos has missed giant chunks of two seasons as well, guess he's over the hill and should be taken out to pasture like those clowns in the first group. Tyler Johnson too. Hedman is about to fall off the cliff as well. Edit: Namestnikov was just hurt too, better remove him from the list, he's starting to be injury prone.

The Kings have few players which are comparable to those on the Lightning, so they aren't like Tampa Bay. Missing Carter creates a hole, but when he comes back the Kings are still in a massive hole when it comes to being a legit contender.

...and I never use the word juggernaut when referring to Tampa Bay, that's your hang up. I call them legit contenders.

Also, I never said the Kings are awful. That is an exaggeration on your part. I said the Kings are a black hole team.

Why doesn't the rest matter, because it totally refutes your point?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The Kings have few players which are comparable to those on the Lightning, so they aren't like Tampa Bay. Missing Carter creates a hole, but when he comes back the Kings are still in a massive hole when it comes to being a legit contender.

...and I never use the word juggernaut when referring to Tampa Bay, that's your hang up. I call them legit contenders.

Also, I never said the Kings are awful. That is an exaggeration on your part. I said the Kings are a black hole team.

Why doesn't the rest matter, because it totally refutes your point?

Let me make it simple.

A 'black hole team' has a major injuries and is currently sitting 2 points out of playoff position albeit with games at hand.

A 'legit contender' had injuries and missed the playoffs.

Tampa Bay is only an illustration of the idea that gets tossed around here that true contenders weather injuries. They didn't. They're a 'true contender' in your words and couldn't even make the show.

I'm not saying Carter makes us true contenders. I think that's where our disconnect is, you feel as if I'm saying Carter suddenly makes us Tampa Bay. Not at all my point. My point is that not even the best teams can weather the loss of significant players effectively, so I don't understand where the expectation that the Kings should is. Edit: even earlier this season people were praising the Ducks for hanging around; they weren't. They were in lottery position and were fortunate to start getting healthy before other teams got their shit together.

But THAT being said, I think even the biggest pessimist here would argue that Carter would add at least two points in the standings. Most teams would love to add a 60 point center at the deadline, no?

With respect to this thread, I'm only pointing out that somehow people keep discussing the Carter-less version of the Kings without considering him at all. Blake, a first year GM, isn't going to make significant changes before he sees his team at near-full strength. I don't think it's prudent to blow it all up before figuring out what 'it' is, and Carter is a significant piece of 'it' that gets disregarded to push a narrative in general (not by you in particular, just by talking heads and other people evaluating the Kings in a vacuum without considering what's missing).

 

[KINGS17]

Let me make it simple.

A 'black hole team' has a major injuries and is currently sitting 2 points out of playoff position albeit with games at hand.

A 'legit contender' had injuries and missed the playoffs.

Tampa Bay is only an illustration of the idea that gets tossed around here that true contenders weather injuries. They didn't. They're a 'true contender' in your words and couldn't even make the show.

I'm not saying Carter makes us true contenders. I think that's where our disconnect is, you feel as if I'm saying Carter suddenly makes us Tampa Bay. Not at all my point. My point is that not even the best teams can weather the loss of significant players effectively, so I don't understand where the expectation that the Kings should is. Edit: even earlier this season people were praising the Ducks for hanging around; they weren't. They were in lottery position and were fortunate to start getting healthy before other teams got their **** together.

But THAT being said, I think even the biggest pessimist here would argue that Carter would add at least two points in the standings. Most teams would love to add a 60 point center at the deadline, no?

With respect to this thread, I'm only pointing out that somehow people keep discussing the Carter-less version of the Kings without considering him at all. Blake, a first year GM, isn't going to make significant changes before he sees his team at near-full strength. I don't think it's prudent to blow it all up before figuring out what 'it' is, and Carter is a significant piece of 'it' that gets disregarded to push a narrative in general (not by you in particular, just by talking heads and other people evaluating the Kings in a vacuum without considering what's missing).

...and those two points in the standings would mean nothing, because the Kings are first round fodder at best.

You are the person who keeps trying to bring up Carter as if he makes a significant difference. When the Kings have Carter in the lineup they are still a black hole team in need of significant changes. The Kings roster being older means it is either time to rebuild or get a whole lot better really fast, because their best players are over 30 years of age. The latter is extremely unlikely to happen, which is why the former is more likely to be the correct course of action.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

...and those two points in the standings would mean nothing, because the Kings are first round fodder at best.

You are the person who keeps trying to bring up Carter as if he makes a significant difference. When the Kings have Carter in the lineup they are still a black hole team in need of significant changes. The Kings roster being older means it is either time to rebuild or get a whole lot better really fast, because their best players are over 30 years of age. The latter is extremely unlikely to happen, which is why the former is more likely to be the correct course of action.

But you don't even get the chance to be first round fodder if you're dealing with those injuries, just like a 'legit contender' had the chance to meet us at the first tee.

I can more or less understand and agree with everything else you've said but the idea that Carter isn't a difference maker is...let's just say you won't find a whole lot of hockey fans anywhere that agree with that.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but are people really advocating throwing young players to the wolves, Vilardi, Dolan-Anderson, Clague etc? Do people forget how AWFUL that was before Lombardi came and established an actual farm system etc....there's a REASON why we haven't seen Kempe until this season, or LaDue etc, people have really short term memories.

 

[kingsfan28]

Which was one of the elements of Dean's plan he got 100% correct. The teams you mention never heard of a bridge contract. Hell, even Dean was tempted to bring Jonthan Bernier in the year after he was drafted, but what did he do instead.

Rebuilds done correctly, with the right philosophy and approach have a better chance of succeeding. They didn't bring in Voynov or Muzzin too soon, and history I think shows they didn't do Jack Johnson at least a half season to marinate in the NHL.

This retool only works if Vilardi, Clague, and probably even Cal Peterson are the real deals in pretty short order.

He definitely got this right. Everyone, from Crawford to Lieweke to Luc wanted to just give the job to Bernier after his good start, yet DL knew it was a bad idea and he was right. Fast forward years later, and Bernier will tell you the best thing for his career was playing in the AHL where learned how to win .

 

[KINGS17]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but are people really advocating throwing young players to the wolves, Vilardi, Dolan-Anderson, Clague etc? Do people forget how AWFUL that was before Lombardi came and established an actual farm system etc....there's a REASON why we haven't seen Kempe until this season, or LaDue etc, people have really short term memories.

Yes, this is the re-load people are counting on to put the aging core back on top.