Sheldon Keefe Discussion

[LeafsNation75]

It’s more just a really bad situation for Keefe. He probably isn’t in the hot seat himself, but a bad season could very well spell the end of Dubas, which would likely be the end of Keefe too.

Also, the fact that the previous coach took a huge part of the blame means the new guy better make a difference.

Probably not fair, but he really has to get this team to perform.

I think Keefe deserves at least one season where he can coach 82 games. Last season he only coached 46 games with a record of 27-15-5 and we know this season is only 56 games.

 

[Dreakmur]

I think Keefe deserves at least one season where he can coach 82 games. Last season he only coached 46 games with a record of 27-15-5 and we know this season is only 56 games.

I agree, but the situation he’s in may not allow for that.

 

[Menzinger]

I don't think impatient is the right word, I think Leaf fans have been very patient. Frustrated is more accurate and after 4 consecutive 1st round losses, you'd have to be quite stoic to not be somewhat frustrated at this point. If we go down early again then I think it would be really hard to argue that nothing needs to change, just need to be patient etc. What needs to change, well that's another story and hopefully we'll win a few rounds this time around and will never have to contemplate that.

On one level I definitely understand frustration from fans, but part of these expectations has come from the Leafs rebuild going through a faster than expected rate. Few predicted the Leafs would make the 1sr round immediately after drafting Matthews.

If the Leafs had missed the playoffs during Matthews rookie/sophomore seasons, would perhaps the fans have calmer perspective on the teams (lack thereof) postseason success with only 2 foret round losses? Maybe.

 

[LeafsNation75]

On one level I definitely understand frustration from fans, but part of these expectations has come from the Leafs rebuild going through a faster than expected rate. Few predicted the Leafs would make the 1sr round immediately after drafting Matthews.

If the Leafs had missed the playoffs during Matthews rookie/sophomore seasons, would perhaps the fans have calmer perspective on the teams (lack thereof) postseason success with only 2 foret round losses? Maybe.

I think the frustration is how they lost in the playoffs, especially in 2018 and 2019.

2017 Can be excused since no one expected them to make it and every game against Washington was a one goal game, with Games 1, 2, 3, 5, & 6 all going to overtime. So when you look at it like that with a few more bounces of luck when they lost Game 1, 5, & 6 they could have won that series.

However in 2018 they had a 4-3 lead going into the 3rd period of Game 7 and lost 7-4.

In 2019 They had that 3-2 series lead going back to Toronto for Game 6 with a chance to eliminate Boston. They had a 1-0 lead in the 1st period, however the Bruins got back to back power play goals to take a 2-1 lead and won 4-2 forcing Game 7 and we know what happened next.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I don't think impatient is the right word, I think Leaf fans have been very patient. Frustrated is more accurate and after 4 consecutive 1st round losses, you'd have to be quite stoic to not be somewhat frustrated at this point. If we go down early again then I think it would be really hard to argue that nothing needs to change, just need to be patient etc. What needs to change, well that's another story and hopefully we'll win a few rounds this time around and will never have to contemplate that.

No you're right, frustrated would be a good word. I'm plenty frustrated myself with this franchise knowing they had two pretty good chances to move on from the first/opening round of a series only to watch them squander it. Something will have to change, but I'm not sure that it should be in the form of a Coach or GM firing, hell some people have even thrown out Shanahan as a target for firing.

On one level I definitely understand frustration from fans, but part of these expectations has come from the Leafs rebuild going through a faster than expected rate. Few predicted the Leafs would make the 1sr round immediately after drafting Matthews.

If the Leafs had missed the playoffs during Matthews rookie/sophomore seasons, would perhaps the fans have calmer perspective on the teams (lack thereof) postseason success with only 2 foret round losses? Maybe.

This is a good point. That 16-17 season while entertaining and fun definitely vaulted the team into competitive status faster than any of us expected. Pretty sure most of us were expecting another tanking season the summer beforehand and hoping to land Liljegren in the draft (who was the top defenseman prospect at the time). Arguably this team shouldn't have even sniffed a playoff spot until at least the year after but that's the way things go.

 

[Gary Nylund]

On one level I definitely understand frustration from fans, but part of these expectations has come from the Leafs rebuild going through a faster than expected rate. Few predicted the Leafs would make the 1sr round immediately after drafting Matthews.

If the Leafs had missed the playoffs during Matthews rookie/sophomore seasons, would perhaps the fans have calmer perspective on the teams (lack thereof) postseason success with only 2 foret round losses? Maybe.

Maybe, who knows. But while the 1st year may have been unexpected, missing the playoffs in that 2nd season would have been a huge downer considering the talent on the roster.

It is what is is. I've said it before - considering pre-series odds, the odds of us losing all 4 of those PO series is about 1 in 10. And that last one was really hard to take considering we were almost 100% healthy and were solid favourites so no excuses for that one. That's enough to be frustrated even if you ignore what fans have had to put up with for the previous decade(s).

I think the frustration is how they lost in the playoffs, especially in 2018 and 2019.

2017 Can be excused since no one expected them to make it and every game against Washington was a one goal game, with Games 1, 2, 3, 5, & 6 all going to overtime. So when you look at it like that with a few more bounces of luck when they lost Game 1, 5, & 6 they could have won that series.

However in 2018 they had a 4-3 lead going into the 3rd period of Game 7 and lost 7-4.

In 2019 They had that 3-2 series lead going back to Toronto for Game 6 with a chance to eliminate Boston. They had a 1-0 lead in the 1st period, however the Bruins got back to back power play goals to take a 2-1 lead and won 4-2 forcing Game 7 and we know what happened next.

Yeah I agree that the way we lost is a part of it. Would suck no matter how it happened but the way it happened definitely adds that little bit to the frustration.

I think I felt the same way a year ago (frustrated) but I hope that once the games start I'm once again able to put the past behind me and enjoy watching it all unfold. There's certainly reason to be excited about the possibilities this season, especially when we don't have to even worry about facing Boston or TB in the 1st round. But just like a year ago, my attitude is that no matter what happens, I resolve not to get cocky and not say one word about how good we are. Not until we win at least one PO series anyway, I'd be embarrassed to do anything but keep my mouth shut until then.

GLG!!

 

[Gary Nylund]

No you're right, frustrated would be a good word. I'm plenty frustrated myself with this franchise knowing they had two pretty good chances to move on from the first/opening round of a series only to watch them squander it. Something will have to change, but I'm not sure if it should be in the form of a Coach or GM firing, hell some people have even throne out Shanahan as a target for firing.

This is a good point. That 16-17 season while entertaining and fun definitely vaulted the team into competitive status faster than any of us expected. Pretty sure most of us were expecting another tanking season the summer beforehand and hoping to land Liljegren in the draft (who was the top defenseman prospect at the time). Arguably this team shouldn't have even sniffed a playoff spot until at least the year after but that's the way things go.

I'm going to take the stance that there's no need to ponder this as we're going to kick some serious ass this spring, I mean this summer.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Yeah I agree that the way we lost is a part of it. Would suck no matter how it happened but the way it happened definitely adds that little bit to the frustration.

I think I felt the same way a year ago (frustrated) but I hope that once the games start I'm once again able to put the past behind me and enjoy watching it all unfold. There's certainly reason to be excited about the possibilities this season, especially when we don't have to even worry about facing Boston or TB in the 1st round. But just like a year ago, my attitude is that no matter what happens, I resolve not to get cocky and not say one word about how good we are. Not until we win at least one PO series anyway, I'd be embarrassed to do anything but keep my mouth shut until then.

GLG!!

If last season went normal like any other year and the Leafs played the Lightning in the 1st round I wonder what the result would have been? Not that it would have meant anything but their record against Tampa in the three games against them was 2-1.

Plus there was the history of playing the Bruins in back to back Game 7's, so there was no reason why they couldn't compete with the Lightning.

 

[meefer]

I'm going to take the stance that there's no need to ponder this as we're going to kick some serious ass this spring, I mean this summer.

I'm of the same opinion.

 

[Gary Nylund]

If last season went normal like any other year and the Leafs played the Lightning in the 1st round I wonder what the result would have been? Not that it would have meant anything but their record against Tampa in the three games against them was 2-1.

Plus there was the history of playing the Bruins in back to back Game 7's, so there was no reason why they couldn't compete with the Lightning.

Yeah that 2-1 record against them doesn't mean anything. We could compete with them for sure so we'd definitely have a chance of beating them. Then again they won the cup while we went out quickly and they were full value for the cup win so ...

 

[LeafsNation75]

Yeah that 2-1 record against them doesn't mean anything. We could compete with them for sure so we'd definitely have a chance of beating them. Then again they won the cup while we went out quickly and they were full value for the cup win so ...

They also won a Stanley Cup after a 4 month break. Could they have won it in a normal season if all 82 games were played and the playoffs started on time like every other April, they would have been a favorite and it's something will never know.

 

[Pookie]

4 of 7 teams will make the playoffs.

I fully expect us to make it.

And if we don’t, I fully expect a house cleaning.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I think the frustration is how they lost in the playoffs, especially in 2018 and 2019.

2017 Can be excused since no one expected them to make it and every game against Washington was a one goal game, with Games 1, 2, 3, 5, & 6 all going to overtime. So when you look at it like that with a few more bounces of luck when they lost Game 1, 5, & 6 they could have won that series.

However in 2018 they had a 4-3 lead going into the 3rd period of Game 7 and lost 7-4.

In 2019 They had that 3-2 series lead going back to Toronto for Game 6 with a chance to eliminate Boston. They had a 1-0 lead in the 1st period, however the Bruins got back to back power play goals to take a 2-1 lead and won 4-2 forcing Game 7 and we know what happened next.

Most of the core guys were still 20 - 22. This stuff doesn't happen overnight. Teams like Pittsburgh and Chicago had their lineup in place with the young studs added at the end. Not the scenario we are in.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

If last season went normal like any other year and the Leafs played the Lightning in the 1st round I wonder what the result would have been? Not that it would have meant anything but their record against Tampa in the three games against them was 2-1.

Plus there was the history of playing the Bruins in back to back Game 7's, so there was no reason why they couldn't compete with the Lightning.

I have been wanting to draw Tampa for 3 years. We might not win but I think it would have the potential to be the most entertaining series of the playoffs. I think they'd run with us and you'd just see two super talented teams put said talent on display.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I have been wanting to draw Tampa for 3 years. We might not win but I think it would have the potential to be the most entertaining series of the playoffs. I think they'd run with us and you'd just see two super talented teams put said talent on display.

The closest Toronto got to playing Tampa was in 2018 and it would have happened if Boston won their final regular season game.

 

[Twowingcantfly]

Honestly I'm not a big fan. Prefer Babcock any day. Babs input was muzzled once Dubas came on board, and this team has moved backwards with every move. This will be a tough year for O'Keefe. Goals against will rise. SHG will overshadow a strong PP. Andersen will take all the heat get traded and finish strong for Colorado(Barrie with him Jk.) I love the Maple Leafs. But they are far from being contenders.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Honestly I'm not a big fan. Prefer Babcock any day. Babs input was muzzled once Dubas came on board, and this team has moved backwards with every move. This will be a tough year for O'Keefe. Goals against will rise. SHG will overshadow a strong PP. Andersen will take all the heat get traded and finish strong for Colorado(Barrie with him Jk.) I love the Maple Leafs. But they are far from being contenders.

Babcock basically told Dubas screw you with the way he treated Jason Spezza, so if anything you can say he didn't care that he signed him.

 

[Twowingcantfly]

Babcock basically told Dubas screw you with the way he treated Jason Spezza, so if anything you can say he didn't care that he signed him.

I agree, no grit and can't kill penalties. Spezza wasn't the only signing Babcock did not like.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I agree, no grit and can't kill penalties. Spezza wasn't the only signing Babcock did not like.

I wasn't saying that to defend Babcock. I was pointing out how stupid he was being when he told the media he didn't know what Spezza's role would be, however he had no problems playing Patrick Marleau who was actually older.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Honestly I'm not a big fan. Prefer Babcock any day. Babs input was muzzled once Dubas came on board, and this team has moved backwards with every move. This will be a tough year for O'Keefe. Goals against will rise. SHG will overshadow a strong PP. Andersen will take all the heat get traded and finish strong for Colorado(Barrie with him Jk.) I love the Maple Leafs. But they are far from being contenders.

How was he muzzled? He did everything the exact same and thats the problem.

 

[The Podium]

Honestly I'm not a big fan. Prefer Babcock any day. Babs input was muzzled once Dubas came on board, and this team has moved backwards with every move. This will be a tough year for O'Keefe. Goals against will rise. SHG will overshadow a strong PP. Andersen will take all the heat get traded and finish strong for Colorado(Barrie with him Jk.) I love the Maple Leafs. But they are far from being contenders.

I have no sympathy for Babcock. He had some of the best young players in the league and decided it was a good idea to limit their minutes.

Dubas got him a big top pairing defensive D and Babcock bitched that he was the wrong hand.

Dubas got him vet leadership and he decides he doesn’t want that guy.

The GMs can only do so much with the players that are available. And Dubas’ teams have better D and just as much grit as Lou so let’s not pretend like there was a drastic change in the teams makeup. Unless you think Matt Martin and Leo Komarov, who were given minimal minutes, we significant contributions to “grit”.

As for your other comments, this team was significantly better defensively with Keefe than Babs...

 

[Dreakmur]

I have no sympathy for Babcock. He had some of the best young players in the league and decided it was a good idea to limit their minutes.

Funny how different perspectives can view the same events. I’m a longtime coach, so I suppose I’m more likely to take the coach’s side...

I saw this as Babcock trying to teach these young players how to win. Work hard, get more ice. Be good defensively, get more ice. Compete hard, get more ice.

I agree that wasn’t the best way to “win now”, but it was the best for the long term success of the team and each player.

I also would agree that his methods were not always ideal, but I did understand what he was trying to accomplish.

Dubas got him a big top pairing defensive D and Babcock bitched that he was the wrong hand.

Probably should have known the Toronto media would run with a comment like that. He wasn’t wrong to think it, but maybe don’t say it in this market lol.

Dubas got him vet leadership and he decides he doesn’t want that guy.

I viewed this as a teaching moment for spezza. I have no idea what goes on behind closed doors, but I assumed this was Babcock’s response to how Spezza was reluctant to accept the lesser role.

 

[The Podium]

Funny how different perspectives can view the same events. I’m a longtime coach, so I suppose I’m more likely to take the coach’s side...

I saw this as Babcock trying to teach these young players how to win. Work hard, get more ice. Be good defensively, get more ice. Compete hard, get more ice.

I agree that wasn’t the best way to “win now”, but it was the best for the long term success of the team and each player.

I also would agree that his methods were not always ideal, but I did understand what he was trying to accomplish.

There is a difference between earning your spot and intentionally limiting players who earned it. You have Hyman and Marleau out looking for a goal in the dying minutes of a game 7 instead of your 40 goal scorer? You put your best offensive threat on the 2nd PP?

I am all for tough love and forcing players to learn the defensive game, but there were a few questionable decisions which hurt the team more than the benefit it provided the development of Matthews&co.

Probably should have known the Toronto media would run with a comment like that. He wasn’t wrong to think it, but maybe don’t say it in this market lol.

He was absolutely wrong to think it. There were 85 RHD in the league at the time for 93 spots. Of those 85 only ~ 17 can be considered top pairing worthy. Which means that nearly half the league wont have a top pairing quality RHD. Ideally he'd get a RHD, but those just arent available and he should have been aware of that.

I viewed this as a teaching moment for spezza. I have no idea what goes on behind closed doors, but I assumed this was Babcock’s response to how Spezza was reluctant to accept the lesser role.

Spezza signed a 1 year league minimum deal. He knew his role.

 

[Dreakmur]

There is a difference between earning your spot and intentionally limiting players who earned it. You have Hyman and Marleau out looking for a goal in the dying minutes of a game 7 instead of your 40 goal scorer? You put your best offensive threat on the 2nd PP?

I am all for tough love and forcing players to learn the defensive game, but there were a few questionable decisions which hurt the team more than the benefit it provided the development of Matthews&co.




He was absolutely wrong to think it. There were 85 RHD in the league at the time for 93 spots. Of those 85 only ~ 17 can be considered top pairing worthy. Which means that nearly half the league wont have a top pairing quality RHD. Ideally he'd get a RHD, but those just arent available and he should have been aware of that.



Spezza signed a 1 year league minimum deal. He knew his role.

As I said, we obviously view this from much different life experiences.

 

[Sypher04]

Funny how different perspectives can view the same events. I’m a longtime coach, so I suppose I’m more likely to take the coach’s side...

I saw this as Babcock trying to teach these young players how to win. Work hard, get more ice. Be good defensively, get more ice. Compete hard, get more ice.

I agree that wasn’t the best way to “win now”, but it was the best for the long term success of the team and each player.

I also would agree that his methods were not always ideal, but I did understand what he was trying to accomplish.



Probably should have known the Toronto media would run with a comment like that. He wasn’t wrong to think it, but maybe don’t say it in this market lol.



I viewed this as a teaching moment for spezza. I have no idea what goes on behind closed doors, but I assumed this was Babcock’s response to how Spezza was reluctant to accept the lesser role.

Spezza said from the day he entered camp last year that he was ready to accept whatever role they needed of him.

And I think it's a hard argument to make that Matthews wasn't defensively sound enough or competing hard enough to warrant the big minutes other stars around the league get.

And Babcock absolutely was wrong to think his complaints about Muzzin's acquisition. He needed good players on the backend, handedness does not matter. Actually saying them out loud, to the media, was Babcock being childish.

We needed a coach, not a distraction, a bully, and someone who saw himself as bigger than the team