Sheldon Keefe Discussion

[nuck]

Spezza said from the day he entered camp last year that he was ready to accept whatever role they needed of him.

And I think it's a hard argument to make that Matthews wasn't defensively sound enough or competing hard enough to warrant the big minutes other stars around the league get.

And Babcock absolutely was wrong to think his complaints about Muzzin's acquisition. He needed good players on the backend, handedness does not matter. Actually saying them out loud, to the media, was Babcock being childish.

We needed a coach, not a distraction, a bully, and someone who saw himself as bigger than the team

Unless there was something more this was Babcock's comment on Muzz. I think its a stretch to call it a complaint when everyone knew the club was looking for a righty. “It’s not perfect,” Babcock said when asked whether having five lefties in the top six complicates his job. “It’s what we got. It’s what was available and we’re going to make it work.”

 

[Sypher04]

Unless there was something more this was Babcock's comment on Muzz. I think its a stretch to call it a complaint when everyone knew the club was looking for a righty. “It’s not perfect,” Babcock said when asked whether having five lefties in the top six complicates his job. “It’s what we got. It’s what was available and we’re going to make it work.”

Player quality trumps handedness always and Muzzin was a huge upgrade to our group. His comments were thinly veiled complaints

 

[FlareKnight]

What matters most is whether you can get the most out of the team. Keefe had a really good start when taking over last year. But the scary thing is that the team still fell back into the lazy play they had under Babcock after a while. Can Keefe actually get this team to play the way they need to win? I sure hope so. Since otherwise you've two coaches with the same core guys getting the same results out of them.

Not as much pressure for Keefe himself since this is his first full season with the team. But plenty of pressure on the players and management for this to play out well. Not an ideal circumstance even now for Keefe to get everything lined up as he'd like. But it is the situation he's got to work with. Fingers crossed here.

Unless there was something more this was Babcock's comment on Muzz. I think its a stretch to call it a complaint when everyone knew the club was looking for a righty. “It’s not perfect,” Babcock said when asked whether having five lefties in the top six complicates his job. “It’s what we got. It’s what was available and we’re going to make it work.”

True enough. I know it's easy and comfortable to blame Babcock for everything. But while some things are on him, not literally everything is. The comments on Muzzin were accurate. It wasn't a perfect solution. As evidenced by still having to go out to get Brodie. Muzzin wasn't the partner for Rielly we needed, nor a guy that could play on the right side. But he was what was out there and what we got. Worked out to really solidify the second pairing.

The Muzzin acquisition being used to fire shots at Babcock is pretty comical. He was right. Handedness doesn't matter? Sure, so long as guys can play equally well on their off-side. Which Muzzin couldn't.

 

[Sypher04]

What matters most is whether you can get the most out of the team. Keefe had a really good start when taking over last year. But the scary thing is that the team still fell back into the lazy play they had under Babcock after a while. Can Keefe actually get this team to play the way they need to win? I sure hope so. Since otherwise you've two coaches with the same core guys getting the same results out of them.

Not as much pressure for Keefe himself since this is his first full season with the team. But plenty of pressure on the players and management for this to play out well. Not an ideal circumstance even now for Keefe to get everything lined up as he'd like. But it is the situation he's got to work with. Fingers crossed here.

True enough. I know it's easy and comfortable to blame Babcock for everything. But while some things are on him, not literally everything is. The comments on Muzzin were accurate. It wasn't a perfect solution. As evidenced by still having to go out to get Brodie. Muzzin wasn't the partner for Rielly we needed, nor a guy that could play on the right side. But he was what was out there and what we got. Worked out to really solidify the second pairing.

The Muzzin acquisition being used to fire shots at Babcock is pretty comical. He was right. Handedness doesn't matter? Sure, so long as guys can play equally well on their off-side. Which Muzzin couldn't.

I really don't know how people can't see through Babcock's comments. Not everything he did and said was wrong, but he was in the wrong here. He was shouting from the rooftops about needing a defensive upgrade and Dubas got him a very good one. The stance he took and gave to the media which is calculated and don't kid yourselves, is that it was an imperfect acquisition and they will "make it work". He was acquired a significant upgrade and that's the position he chose to take.

Also you can't call Rielly and Muzzin not working together accurate either. They played barely a handful of games together and looked great before being split up. The leafs didn't need muzzin to play his offside, Rielly was doing it highly effectively.

You're way off. I'm not just "firing shots" for the sake of firing shots. Babcock was in the wrong and many people, including myself, said so at the time of the comments as well

 

[Oscar Peterson]

Also you can't call Rielly and Muzzin not working together accurate either. They played barely a handful of games together and looked great before being split up. The leafs didn't need muzzin to play his offside, Rielly was doing it highly effectively.

This is true, Rielly and Muzzin actually dominated in the couple of games that they played together, and I'm a bit sad we never got to see it for a longer stretch of time, although with the way our D is currently constructed I do prefer Muzzin anchoring the second pairing. The "I coached Lidstrom, you don't play your best d-man on his off-side" argument was definitely just pouty and that's when I began to lose faith in Babcock.

 

[Martin Skoula]

This is true, Rielly and Muzzin actually dominated in the couple of games that they played together, and I'm a bit sad we never got to see it for a longer stretch of time, although with the way our D is currently constructed I do prefer Muzzin anchoring the second pairing. The "I coached Lidstrom, you don't play your best d-man on his off-side" argument was definitely just pouty and that's when I began to lose faith in Babcock.

Don't forget the fact that the big RHD he kept whining about was sitting in the press box for a year because Babcock made a snap decision that he didn't like him and refused to admit he was wrong.

 

[Dreakmur]

I really don't know how people can't see through Babcock's comments. Not everything he did and said was wrong, but he was in the wrong here. He was shouting from the rooftops about needing a defensive upgrade and Dubas got him a very good one. The stance he took and gave to the media which is calculated and don't kid yourselves, is that it was an imperfect acquisition and they will "make it work". He was acquired a significant upgrade and that's the position he chose to take.

Also you can't call Rielly and Muzzin not working together accurate either. They played barely a handful of games together and looked great before being split up. The leafs didn't need muzzin to play his offside, Rielly was doing it highly effectively.

You're way off. I'm not just "firing shots" for the sake of firing shots. Babcock was in the wrong and many people, including myself, said so at the time of the comments as well

I thought Babcock's comment was more of an eye-poke to Dubas than a real comment about Muzzin. It was pretty clear, long before that trade, that Babcock and Dubas were not going to be able to work together.

 

[Dreakmur]

Spezza said from the day he entered camp last year that he was ready to accept whatever role they needed of him.

Saying and doing are not the same.

I have no idea what happened, but I assumed Spezza didn't play because he wasn't playing the role Babcock wanted.

And I think it's a hard argument to make that Matthews wasn't defensively sound enough or competing hard enough to warrant the big minutes other stars around the league get.

I have seen significant progress in Matthews' game over the last few years. He has gotten better defensively, and he has really improved the consistency of his effort.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I thought Babcock's comment was more of an eye-poke to Dubas than a real comment about Muzzin. It was pretty clear, long before that trade, that Babcock and Dubas were not going to be able to work together.

Dubas had wanted to fire Babcock and replace him with Keefe after they were eliminated by Boston in 2019 and Brendan Shanahan didn't think it was a good idea. At least he admitted later on that was a mistake and should have let Dubas do that a lot earlier.

 

[Dreakmur]

Dubas had wanted to fire Babcock and replace him with Keefe after they were eliminated by Boston in 2019 and Brendan Shanahan didn't think it was a good idea. At least he admitted later on that was a mistake and should have let Dubas do that a lot earlier.

If he wanted to fire him, he should have been allowed. I think it was the wrong decision, but not allowing Dubas to select his own coach caused a lot of problems.

 

[LeafsNation75]

If he wanted to fire him, he should have been allowed. I think it was the wrong decision, but not allowing Dubas to select his own coach caused a lot of problems.

I guess Shanahan thought that since he was the one who hired Babcock. However like I said before at least he admitted being wrong and Dubas did get to hire Keefe.

 

[zeke]

Honestly I'm not a big fan. Prefer Babcock any day. Babs input was muzzled once Dubas came on board, and this team has moved backwards with every move. This will be a tough year for O'Keefe. Goals against will rise. SHG will overshadow a strong PP. Andersen will take all the heat get traded and finish strong for Colorado(Barrie with him Jk.) I love the Maple Leafs. But they are far from being contenders.

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[zeke]

I thought Babcock's comment was more of an eye-poke to Dubas than a real comment about Muzzin. It was pretty clear, long before that trade, that Babcock and Dubas were not going to be able to work together.

Babcock really lost control. Pretty much tried to sabotage the kid he called "boy genius".

 

[Dreakmur]

Babcock really lost control. Pretty much tried to sabotage the kid he called "boy genius".

I think they were both trying to sabotage each other. When you fight with your boss, he wins.

The relationship was broken. Shanahan forcing it to continue did damage to the franchise.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I thought Babcock's comment was more of an eye-poke to Dubas than a real comment about Muzzin. It was pretty clear, long before that trade, that Babcock and Dubas were not going to be able to work together.

I wonder what Babcock would have said if Dubas traded Kadri for Brodie because like Muzzin he is also a lefty, however he can play the right side.

 

[zeke]

What matters most is whether you can get the most out of the team. Keefe had a really good start when taking over last year. But the scary thing is that the team still fell back into the lazy play they had under Babcock after a while.
.

Their improvement defensively didn't slow down at all under Keefe though.

They did start to struggle badly offensively though.

Not sure the problem was laziness.

 

[zeke]

I think they were both trying to sabotage each other. When you fight with your boss, he wins.

The relationship was broken. Shanahan forcing it to continue did damage to the franchise.

I don't see how dubas sabotaged him. He kept getting him better and bigger players.

Babcock benched guys like komarov and Martin when Lou was in charge, not when dubas was in charge

 

[Dreakmur]

Their improvement defensively didn't slow down at all under Keefe though.

They did start to struggle badly offensively though.

Not sure the problem was laziness.

It wasn't laziness, but it was a misunderstanding about what truly working hard means. I deal with that all the time with players - they give 85% and think it's 100%. They truly believe they're giving everything they have, so it takes time to show them where they're lacking. It takes a while to find that last 15%.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I don't see how dubas sabotaged him. He kept getting him better and bigger players.

Babcock benched guys like komarov and Martin when Lou was in charge, not when dubas was in charge

At the 2018 trade deadline Lou failed to trade for Ryan McDonagh since he went to Tampa Bay, so it makes me wonder if Babcock would have had a sarcastic remark if Lou made that trade the way Dubas made the Muzzin trade.

 

[Morgs]

Their improvement defensively didn't slow down at all under Keefe though.

They did start to struggle badly offensively though.

Not sure the problem was laziness.

The improvement defensively was obvious. The stats even showed us as a top-half defensive team after Keefe took over. I always think about that game vs. Tampa almost right before covid hit where we just absolutely shut down one of the best offensive teams in the league. Unfortunately the goaltending didn't follow and we still have to hear about our piss poor defense that actually wasn't bad since Keefe took over.

Offense struggling? Maybe a bit down the stretch, and a sudden inability to score in the playoffs, but as a whole.....

Babcock start of season-firing:
All sits xGF/60 - 2.78 (18th)
5v5 xGF/60 - 2.27 (19th)
All sits GF/60 - 3.03 (14th)
5v5 GF/60 - 2.51 (14th)

Keefe Nov 20 2019-20 (just the reg season):
All sits xGF/60 - 3.24 (2nd)
5v5 xGF/60 - 2.77 (2nd)
All sits GF/60 - 3.51 (1st)
5v5 GF/60 - 2.85 (5th)

I'd say we pretty easily improved offensively compared to the start of the season with Babcock.

 

[Menzinger]

I think they were both trying to sabotage each other. When you fight with your boss, he wins.

The relationship was broken. Shanahan forcing it to continue did damage to the franchise.

I think the fair point here is Shanahan did himself few favors building the front office in the order he did. It worked for a short time while.the team was in transition, but wasn't built to last.

His choice for long term GM should have been able to pick their coach (and head scout, ect).

Regardless of how one views Babcock or Dubas, the two clearly weren't in sync.

Personally, retrospectively its fair to say Babs was right about some.things with the team (wanting intensity ect) but was probably the wrong fit for a young and developing group -and his strong (stubborn?) Positions on some things and lineup decisions did himself no favors

 

[Menzinger]

With regards to Keefe, I look forward to seeing his experimentation early on - the Kerfoot 3rd line unit, Thornton on the Matthews line.

Only thing I'm not 100% sold on is Matthews PKing. BUT it seems like the player really wants to do it, and could be an added incentive for him throughout the season - sort of reads to me like Mattews wants to increase the persecution of respect/work ethic around the league, which is a good thing imo

 

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[Twowingcantfly]

I wasn't saying that to defend Babcock. I was pointing out how stupid he was being when he told the media he didn't know what Spezza's role would be, however he had no problems playing Patrick Marleau who was actually older.

I like Jason a lot. And I think he would have been a good compliment to this team. Trouble is we picked up a couple big contracts prior and they can't kill penalties either.
When building a team there are certain roles dolled out to types of players who fit them. When you have too many similar types that fit only one role; The coach's hands a tied.
ON my team everyone should be able to kill penalties. Babcock, Scotty Bowman, Gerard Gallant always built their teams this way.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I like Jason a lot. And I think he would have been a good compliment to this team. Trouble is we picked up a couple big contracts prior and they can't kill penalties either.
When building a team there are certain roles dolled out to types of players who fit them. When you have too many similar types that fit only one role; The coach's hands a tied.
ON my team everyone should be able to kill penalties. Babcock, Scotty Bowman, Gerard Gallant always built their teams this way.

I don't remember Patrick Marleau playing on the Leafs penalty kill and Mike Babcock had no problem playing him every night or asking what his role would be.