Sheldon Keefe Discussion

[RogerR]

This team is 7-2-1? Who knew from the reactions.

 

[hotpaws]

Dubas has had three drafts so far since becoming GM. Hardly enough time to call the higher drafted players busts right now or that they weren’t developed properly. You’re all free to go ahead and do so if you want, but most will have patience while they develop.

Also again what a dumb argument. You can do everything right by a prospect and sometimes they just can’t cut it. I can’t believe this is such a heavy point of contention.

Leafs have Sandin travelling and practicing with the team, which is about the best you could ask for in a pandemic world that has so far kept our farm team from playing, where Sandin would be getting reps. Should they have had Sandin and Liljegren overseas playing? Maybe, or perhaps the organization wanted them working out and bulking up between the bubble playoffs and the start of this new NHL season, something @biotk was very upset about them not doing between the COVID pause and the bubble, but is now mad that they weren’t playing in an inferior league. Great logic.

when did i call any of our prospects busts ?

if you read my post i literally said all a team can do is put a prospect in the right situation and then it's up to the prospect and all i'm getting from your posts is the team is perfect and anyone who disagrees is a hater

the team should have tried to find places for our kids to play and if they couldn't they should have made an effort to at least give Sandin the odd game since it's closing in on a year since he's played and we're already 10 games into this season so the longer the team waits to dress him the lower chance he has for any success this year

it's tough enough for most kids to adjust to the NHL , never mind trying to jump in mid season after not playing any games for a year[/USER][/QUOTE]

 

[zeke]

Tired: "LOL Dubas dumb GM has no capspace to ice any good depth players"

Wired: "LOL Dubas dumb GM has too many good depth players can't play all his prospects"

 

[BertCorbeau]

Yes, I didn't question the many forwards who you brought up in a discussion about the Leafs and Dubas being bad at D development.

I have already discussed many times
Dermott who now at 24 has not progressed in 3 years and is getting an extremely sheltered 11 minutes a game on the third pairing with no special teams and Holl who was playing for a team so incompetent that they brought in Euro free agents like Oz to block him from playing, and looked so bad being played as in injury replacement (because it is a terrible way to develop players) that most of the fanbase wanted him waived (including you) until they couldn't find a Euro free agent one year and were stuck giving players like Holl a spot to compete for for once.

Then you have Connor Carrick who was acquired to play for the Leafs (and played 16 games for them before playing 5 total games for the Marlies) and Scott Harrington who was also acquired to play for the Leafs (and played 15 games for them before playing 17 games for the Marlies and heading elsewhere).

Team sucks at developing D, has the entire time Dubas has been with the team, and has done a completely terrible job with Sandin and Liljegren.

Sandin and Liljegren’s progress and production at the AHL level given their age say otherwise.

Dermott was quite solid in his top 4 fill in during Reilly and Muzzin’s injuries last year.

He was outstanding during his first full year before that shoulder injury. Which then had off-season surgery to fix. So he missed the start of last season. As he got his legs going he was getting better and better in the second half of last year.

He’s been fine this year but there isn’t an opportunity to get him in the top 4 yet. The Leafs have depth, it makes nothing to do with his play. If he was that bad, he’d be out of the line up.

 

[hotpaws]

Tired: "LOL Dubas dumb GM has no capspace to ice any good depth players"

Wired: "LOL Dubas dumb GM has too many good depth players can't play all his prospects"

where are all these good depth players ?

 

[RogerR]

where are all these good depth players ?

I do like their depth on D quite a bit this year compared to what it's been like for a long time.

 

[zeke]

where are all these good depth players ?

They've got a beauty bottom pair looking so good right now there's no room for any of the most talented trio of #7-9 dmen in the league to get a real shot right now.

Thats what you call DEPTH.

 

[RogerR]

Leafs depth on D is better than many contenders.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

when did i call any of our prospects busts ?

if you read my post i literally said all a team can do is put a prospect in the right situation and then it's up to the prospect and all i'm getting from your posts is the team is perfect and anyone who disagrees is a hater

That's not my intent. If one has issues with the way Sandin is being developed fine. What I don't care for is the double standards and the "this is going to fail no matter what" mentality from the other poster.

the team should have tried to find places for our kids to play and if they couldn't they should have made an effort to at least give Sandin the odd game since it's closing in on a year since he's played and we're already 10 games into this season so the longer the team waits to dress him the lower chance he has for any success this year

it's tough enough for most kids to adjust to the NHL , never mind trying to jump in mid season after not playing any games for a year

That's fair. I want him to play to but it's tough when we're living through a pandemic. I can only imagine that the main reason the Leafs didn't send Sandin and Liljegren to Europe to get some games in is so they wouldn't develop habits more natural to European ice and play styles. Both have already been acclimating well to North American hockey for a couple years now.

 

[biotk]

At the end of the day, the Leafs have three developed defensemen on the roster, one on each pairing, and two who developed under Dubas. If that’s an example of “poor development” then most NHL teams are putrid at developing defensemen.

Just an absurd argument. All teams, no matter bad at development always have several D on their roster who they developed. The year before Dubas was hired the Leafs' had Gardiner, Gunnarsson and Rielly. Good developing teams are able to trade away D for assets like Colorado did getting Kadri for Barrie. Bad developing teams need to trade away assets to fill the massive holes in their lineup like Toronto trading away a first and two prospects for Muzzin and Kadri for Barrie, are in constant need of signing free agents to keep their D-core afloat. Toronto goes a step further by needing to sign 5 euro free agents over the last 5 years because otherwise they didn't think they dress a even passable D-core.

Teams that are even ok at developing D don't face a crisis each summer as to how their D is going to work. Teams that are even ok at developing don't spend 5 years and multiple free agents and trades to try to find a partner for Rielly. Teams that are even ok at developing don't have promising young D develop from being 16 minute a night 3rd pairing D to 11 minute a night 3rd pairing D over the course of 3 years.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Just an absurd argument. All teams, no matter bad at development always have several D on their roster who they developed. The year before Dubas was hired the Leafs' had Gardiner, Gunnarsson and Rielly. Good developing teams are able to trade away D for assets like Colorado did getting Kadri for Barrie. Bad developing teams need to trade away assets to fill the massive holes in their lineup like Toronto trading away a first and two prospects for Muzzin and Kadri for Barrie, are in constant need of signing free agents to keep their D-core afloat. Toronto goes a step further by needing to sign 5 euro free agents over the last 5 years because otherwise they didn't think they dress a even passable D-core.

Teams that are even ok at developing D don't face a crisis each summer as to how their D is going to work. Teams that are even ok at developing don't spend 5 years and multiple free agents and trades to try to find a partner for Rielly. Teams that are even ok at developing don't have promising young D develop from being 16 minute a night 3rd pairing D to 11 minute a night 3rd pairing D over the course of 3 years.

Speaking of absurd arguments.....

Filling holes doesn't mean anything to do with how you are developing anything. You may not be aware of this but most D-men don't hit their stride until 4 -7 years post draft. Meanwhile you still have to ice your team. Moving assets to do so tells you a lot more about the previous GM's complete failure to do anything to address his clubs biggest need. Fortunately there is someone in place who understands this and his approach will allow said assets to properly develop along the same timeframes as occurs league wide throughout time. Meanwhile if someone gets pushed down the depth chart....freaking YAY!!! It means the team is doing better (as evidenced by fairly big strides to date in our defensive numbers).

 

[biotk]

Sandin and Liljegren’s progress and production at the AHL level given their age say otherwise.

Jets fans said all the same things about Niku 4 years ago.

Outside of D almost always needing to have a base level of offensive productivity in the AHL to earn a promotion to the NHL, production in that league is almost completely irrelevant - because good D are generally not there for long (unless there is a lockout or something) and deployment is a major factor in point production in the AHL. Duncan Keith was less productive in the AHL than younger D teammates Wisniewski and Babchuk in 2004/05. The next year he was Chicago's #1 D and they were definitely not.

 

[Machinae]

Remember when Detroit was all the rage for boxing out their up in-coming prospects due to a strong roster.. Really sucks for Sandin but I'll take having an uncrackable top-6 with good prospects ready to play than just having open spots and hoping those prospects can fill in.

Oh but also, don't get too attached to Sandin by the time the trade deadline comes around, especially if you think this team is adding Coleman/Goodrow type forwards.

 

[biotk]

Speaking of absurd arguments.....

Filling holes doesn't mean anything to do with how you are developing anything. You may not be aware of this but most D-men don't hit their stride until 4 -7 years post draft. Meanwhile you still have to ice your team. Moving assets to do so tells you a lot more about the previous GM's complete failure to do anything to address his clubs biggest need. Fortunately there is someone in place who understands this and his approach will allow said assets to properly develop along the same timeframes as occurs league wide throughout time. Meanwhile if someone gets pushed down the depth chart....freaking YAY!!! It means the team is doing better (as evidenced by fairly big strides to date in our defensive numbers).

Yeah, you have no idea what you are talking about. The same with this belief that having a ton of depth is great that Leafs fans have come to believe is the best thing ever since they currently have it. The reality is that too much depth is almost never a good thing (as Mirtle and Friedman have talked about), and having depth in a way that stops young players from developing is definitely a really bad thing.

 

[Critical13]

Leafs depth on D is better than many contenders.

Unfortunately our top pairing is significantly worse than most contenders.

 

[biotk]

Remember when Detroit was all the rage for boxing out their up in-coming prospects due to a strong roster.

None of those boxed out D ever became anything for the Wings. They simply ruined them and the team fell to the basement when they stopped being able to the attract the free agents who were keeping the team at the top.

 

[Critical13]

Remember when Detroit was all the rage for boxing out their up in-coming prospects due to a strong roster.. Really sucks for Sandin but I'll take having an uncrackable top-6 with good prospects ready to play than just having open spots and hoping those prospects can fill in.

Oh but also, don't get too attached to Sandin by the time the trade deadline comes around, especially if you think this team is adding Coleman/Goodrow type forwards.

If Dubas trades Sandin for one of those types it will be a f***ing joke. Show me the last time a 3rd or 4th line got a prospect that good?

The problem isn’t that we aren’t making the right call by not playing him, the problem is he’s sitting around getting 0 reps.

Did all those prospects the Wings had sit in the press box for months at a time?

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

If Dubas trades Sandin for one of those types it will be a f***ing joke. Show me the last time a 3rd or 4th line got a prospect that good?

The problem isn’t that we aren’t making the right call by not playing him, the problem is he’s sitting around getting 0 reps.

Did all those prospects the Wings had sit in the press box for months at a time?

I'm sure some that got injured did, then recovered as good NHL players.

On that note, not sure how it applies to Sandin, because he's not sitting in a press box. His season is delayed due to a pandemic.

 

[Critical13]

I'm sure some that got injured did, then recovered as good NHL players.

On that note, not sure how it applies to Sandin, because he's not sitting in a press box. His season is delayed due to a pandemic.

He's not playing games, that's or sure. I get that the pandemic makes things weird, I'd still like to see him get a game. It's not like Rielly/Dermott/Lehtonen are playing amazing hockey right now.

 

[biotk]

Did all those prospects the Wings had sit in the press box for months at a time?

The general progression for a Wings prospect at that time went in one of two ways: 1) they either got you into the lineup immediately or after a small number of AHL games and had a good career or 2) you sat in the minors for several years being used as injury relief and then when you couldn't pass through waivers any longer you were used as a #6 - 8 D or a 4th line/spare for a couple years. The odd player got extremely lucky like Quincey who was claimed off waivers at age 23 and had a good career which would have never got off the ground if he never got to leave the Wings.

 

[The Podium]

Just an absurd argument. All teams, no matter bad at development always have several D on their roster who they developed. The year before Dubas was hired the Leafs' had Gardiner, Gunnarsson and Rielly. Good developing teams are able to trade away D for assets like Colorado did getting Kadri for Barrie. Bad developing teams need to trade away assets to fill the massive holes in their lineup like Toronto trading away a first and two prospects for Muzzin and Kadri for Barrie, are in constant need of signing free agents to keep their D-core afloat. Toronto goes a step further by needing to sign 5 euro free agents over the last 5 years because otherwise they didn't think they dress a even passable D-core.

Teams that are even ok at developing D don't face a crisis each summer as to how their D is going to work. Teams that are even ok at developing don't spend 5 years and multiple free agents and trades to try to find a partner for Rielly. Teams that are even ok at developing don't have promising young D develop from being 16 minute a night 3rd pairing D to 11 minute a night 3rd pairing D over the course of 3 years.

Tampa traded a 1st + 2nd + 3 prospects for McDonagh and their recent 3rd overall pick for Sergachev

Montreal traded a 2nd + 4th for Petry

St. Louis traded Bokk and Edmundson for Faulk

Colorado traded Turris for Girard, 2x2nds for Toews

I can keep going but you get the idea

 

[zeke]

Remember when Detroit was all the rage for boxing out their up in-coming prospects due to a strong roster.. Really sucks for Sandin but I'll take having an uncrackable top-6 with good prospects ready to play than just having open spots and hoping those prospects can fill in.

Oh but also, don't get too attached to Sandin by the time the trade deadline comes around, especially if you think this team is adding Coleman/Goodrow type forwards.

1) When Babcock's Wings became famous for that "overcooking", that was in relation to Gustav Nyquist who was 24 years old and still in the AHL, Brendan Smith who was 23 years old and still in the AHL, and even Tomas Tatar who was 22 and still in the AHL. None of those guys even got a taste of NHL action until they were at least 22 years old. This is nothing remotely like Sandin and Lilly and Robertson getting their first taste of NHL action at 18/19/20 and not being guaranteed full time spots at 19/20/21.

2) Turns out, of course, that Nyquist and Smith actually just weren't that good, they were just older AHLers who looked better due to age. It was always funny to me that those older prospects were rated better prospects than the leafs' younger, higher ranked, and more talented duo of Kadri and Gardiner at the time.

 

[The Podium]

Jets fans said all the same things about Niku 4 years ago.

Outside of D almost always needing to have a base level of offensive productivity in the AHL to earn a promotion to the NHL, production in that league is almost completely irrelevant - because good D are generally not there for long (unless there is a lockout or something) and deployment is a major factor in point production in the AHL. Duncan Keith was less productive in the AHL than younger D teammates Wisniewski and Babchuk in 2004/05. The next year he was Chicago's #1 D and they were definitely not.

Sandin and Liljegren are different than most D because they were eligble to play in the AHL while other prospects were still playing in the CHL.

 

[zeke]

Sandin and Liljegren are different than most D because they were eligble to play in the AHL while other prospects were still playing in the CHL.

yup. under regular prospect rules, this would be Sandin's rookie season in the AHL, and Lilly's 2nd season.

 

[Notsince67]

This team is 7-2-1? Who knew from the reactions.

This fanbase loves firesales