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"Be water, my friend."
- Jun 25, 2008
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What Keefe was really thinking was: 'I wanted to put Kadri out there to take out McDavid, but then I saw Barrie on the other side and Kerfoot's back and I got really confused..."
Sheldon Keefe Discussion
- Thread starter LEAFANFORLIFE23
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What Keefe was really thinking was: 'I wanted to put Kadri out there to take out McDavid, but then I saw Barrie on the other side and Kerfoot's back and I got really confused..."
killer1980
Registered User
Thought the Oiler loss was a great game to watch. Is that the way to play winning hockey? That I am not sure but it may have been the most entertaining game of the year. I thought Keefe did the right thing by taking off the restraints and let them skate and play to their strengths. Wondering if people think that winning by playing boring hockey is better? Me, I would rather be entertained and I did enjoy Saturday's game even with the outcome.
LeafsNation75
Registered User
How much time was there between the end of the 3rd period and the start of overtime, because there was still that commercial break.
If that is the case they play one or two games. If you think that was the case with Sandin and yet management played him 28 games then you are saying that they are far, far more incompetent then I have ever suggested.
Again - all you are saying is that the Leafs are completely incompetent.
But that is what you want, because when I asked you whose job in the top 6 should he take, you either or wouldn't answer.
I believe he will get his opportunity once Dermott is traded and I believe he will be traded.
Until Then there is no spot for Sandin it's that simple
I did answer. I said that I wanted Sandin traded, and I wasn't concerned about him getting a spot because the Leafs will just do the same thing to him that they have done to Dermott. I also was one of the few people on here who opposed him being used last fall, and who also opposed him being brought up in January (both for the exact same reason that the Leafs' are completely incapable of bringing him into the lineup properly).
I have also always been completely opposed to the Leafs' promising spots to Euro free agents because I oppose gifting spots to anyone.
So you are wrong about everything you say, and you knew you were wrong, you just choose to lie because that is all you have.
So then what if Sandin actually hasn’t put in as much work to prepare for the season as others, and it shows? What if Keefe is right and he actually needs to get stronger to play regular shifts at the nhl level? Do you think Leafs should just gift him a spot any way, or do you think Keefe is flat out lying?
Lol
You- players should be brought up when we think they're ready, shown faith in, and be brought along slowly with opportunity to grow and learn
Also you- players should be be tossed back to the minors at the first sign of trouble or struggle
Give him an (earned) shot last season for two games- that's not enough time, they need to commit to giving him a chance to stick, incompetence!
Give him an (earned) shot last season for 28 games- that's too much time, they should have known immediately that he wasn't ready and sent him back down, incompetence!
Send him to the SHL- how dare they bury him, incompetence!
Designate him to the AHL (which through no fault of their own has been delayed)- how dare bury him, incompetence!
Give him the Lehtonen "opportunity"- this isn't a fair shake, it's going to mess with his head, he should be sent down if they don't think he's earned a full time spot, incompetence! (legitimate)
Gift him Dermott's spot-"I oppose gifting spots to anyone, incompetence!
So what it boils down to is that you've decided that anything they do is wrong. By having the pure incompetent audacity to both give him an audition to start the season and give him another chance after he dusted the WJC and AHL when the opportunity arose they've gone down an irrevocable path that leads to ruin.
I couldn't have been more clear in my posts including the one you replied to that 1) I want Sandin traded (a position I have long held) 2) I don't care if he gets into games because getting into the odd game as injury relief is just a way of having players fail - as we saw with Holl (a position I have long held) and good developing teams don't use their good young prospects as injury relief 3) If he won a full-time spot, the team would simply do as terrible a job as they did with Dermott (a position I have long held).
"Duh....so you just think he should be gifted a spot..."
The team is a trainwreck when it comes to developing D. Has been the whole time Dubas has been with the organization. Starting with Matt Finn and Stuart Percy (two young top 35 picks with the Marlies when Dubas got there) going no where. And continues with Dubas developing his prospects in the exact way he said he would never do and said was harmful. The Leafs have done a terrible job with Sandin because they are a garbage organization when it comes to developing D. My position on that will not change whether they are playing Sandin or not.
Sandin should have never played a game until the team was certain that both he and the team were ready for him to be permanent. Failing on that multiple times, he should have been put on off-season training starting in March instead of being told to stay in game shape. Failing to put his development first again with that, he should have been sent to the SHL for the season in the fall. Now the team just looks like idiots again with him having not played a game in almost a year, but when you do idiotic things you look like an idiot.
As for what Keefe said, all coaches say that the players they are not playing need to do more work. If it was an issue he wouldn't be on the taxi squad. Furthermore if you are an organization which doesn't have competition for spots and which gifts unearned spots to euro free wallets every year, then you are going to end up in a situation where other players know that their work will always go unrewarded within the organization.
Yawn. No wonder this team is so incompetent at bringing in players.
You bring in young players in when, and only when, the organization is positive that they will be successful and permanent players. That shouldn't be hard to understand - it is after all what your cult leader said is the only way young prospects should be brought in. If you try it and you see that they are not ready then you send them back down and you reevaluate why your organization f***ed up so badly in assessing the readiness of the player and/or organization when deciding to bring the player in.
Perhaps that is difficult for you to understand because you have to be 100% supportive of everything an organization, which is clearly terrible at developing D, does.
Laughing at someone making a mountain out of a molehill and twisting themselves into knots to do so is not the same as saying a situation is perfect or being 100% supportive.
Imagine a GM saying something about development which is so obvious and undeniable that every good developing organization does the same thing:
"We don't want our players going up to the Leafs before they're ready, and we don't want them shuttling up and down. We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time."
Then doing the exact opposite with all three of your best prospects, but your cult following is so incapable of rationality that they defend those bad decisions no matter what.
Giving a 6 game audition after a strong camp is not shuttling up and down, it's fairly standard practice
Having a player come in off a WJC MVP and AHL All-Star 1st half and play 22 of 24 games is not shuttling up and down. He had 22 games to pass Dermott and make him expendable. He didn't do that.
Without COVID we're sitting here talking about a player that crushed the AHL playoffs after getting a deserved long look in the N, speculating as to whether he's made the necessary adjustments/ added the necessary strength and first step to translate, wondering how long they can afford to keep him down.
This was pretty simple - Dubas knew that Sandin was not going to be permanent in the fall and in January. During the summer of 2019 he had said that the reason he brought in the depth that he did (Schmaltz, Harper, Gravel along with having Marincin, Holl, Kivi etc) was so that there would be no reason to use Sandin and Liljegren as injury replacement and they could spend the season developing. Then he tossed that all out the window.
Regardless of whether Sandin was ready or not at the time, they did not have an appropriate partner for him to play with making failure basically a guarantee - which happened (same with Liljegren).
And yes, they shuttled Sandin up and down - and did so clearly to cover injuries.
Proper development:
Fall 2019: Rasmus you have performed beyond our expectations, but we have a plan for you and we want you to continuing developing in the AHL, dominate at the WJC and we will bring you up when we are confident you will will succeed and be a permanent player in the lineup. (maybe this season, maybe next season, we don't know at this time, but we are ensuring that what we do is based on what is best for you long-term and not what is best for us short term).
March 2020: Rasmus, this pandemic was unexpected so new plans have to be made. You played amazing all season long, but we are glad we didn't bring up into a chaotic environment with the way our Jekyll and Hyde team performed this year. As we have no idea what is going to happen, we want to use this opportunity to dedicate yourself solely to offseason training. Get bigger and stronger. That will benefit you far more in the long run than if we were to say something like: stay in game shape in case the NHL playoffs happen so we can not dress you anyway.
When the return to play is announced: Ramus there is no sense you coming to the bubble. Better to stick with plan. Stay dedicated to your offseason training. With this late offseason, we have no idea when the next NHL might start, but it certainly will not be on time. We are looking into having you play in the SHL and then after that season ends either the Marlies or Leafs. But regardless every step of way has been based on what is best for your long-term interests, not our own short-term interests.
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there is so much baggage here you are failing to make any clear point.
so the player needs conditioning before he takes a regular shift, so trade him? Total nonsense. Your opinions on how keefe and dubas develop d carry no weight given the length of time the front office here has been in charge. and the notion to just trade all your young d because you can’t develop them is just a hissy fit.
At the end of the day it's really not about having an honest discussion, it's about blindly defending Dubas.
zeke
The Dube Abides
- Mar 14, 2005
- 66,937
- 36,957
Robertson and Sandin have been moved faster and played more than pretty much any of their comparables league wide.
And here we have posters criticizing Dubas for.....BURYING THEM!!!
and then they say that anyone who disagrees with that bit of insane logic is......BLINDLY DEFENDING DUBAS!!!
Pretty hilarious tbh.
And here we have posters criticizing Dubas for.....BURYING THEM!!!
and then they say that anyone who disagrees with that bit of insane logic is......BLINDLY DEFENDING DUBAS!!!
Pretty hilarious tbh.
I just pay attention to the other teams who have had infinitely more success developing D than Toronto.
Develop prospects the proper way - the way Dubas said that young prospects must be developed - and not the way Dubas said is harmful. And if you can't or won't do that have the minimal respect for the prospects you draft, and the team itself, to trade them away while they still have good value instead of ruining them - as Toronto has repeatedly done with D prospects, and continues to do so under Dubas since 2014.
Furthermore if you so are so gullible as to believe that there is a conditioning issue with Sandin right now, then you are a laughable fool. And it would also mean that your cult leader is so incompetent that he has a poorly conditioned player on his stay ready squad instead of the many conditioned options. And of course it is pure nonsense, as anyone who watched the blue and white game would know (as the Athletic said Sandin looked far better and ready that Lehtonen), or any of the journalists who have watched him practice knows.
But shocker of all shockers when a journalist asks Keefe what they are doing with the only member of their "stay ready" squad who hasn't played...Keefe has to say something, and he better say that he is using this time to ensure that Sandin improves and that there is growth, so he says that because they run practices with 8D, unlike the forwards on the taxi squad, Sandin is in every practice, getting reps (which incidentally because Dermott and Lehtonen only play on the left when getting into games is all the more reason why Liljegren would be on the taxi squad if there was even the slightest conditioning issue with Sandin), and they try to prioritize with him using this time productively (wow - earth shaking there), maintain...or actually improve his work habits and time in the gym (something that every coach in the world will say about almost every player they coach) and learning what it is like to be an every day NHL player (again something that every coach will say about every young player they coach). That is some real earth shattering stuff there. The only thing that a coach (who has been a playing a player who he has openly said he is not comfortable with at 5v5, but everyone with any common sense knows has only ever been in the lineup because of worries about losing their pipeline) can say is that the player not playing needs to work harder and improve - otherwise he is simply admitting that he is making lineup decisions not based on merit.
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When you don't know anything about development of D, I could see how you end up blindly thinking that developing D in the AHL first is bad, when you compare everyone to only the D that jumped right into the NHL. Turns out development is a lot more nuanced than that.
Yup. And I was easily one of the first people on here strongly arguing for Dubas to replace Lou. That was because I had read what Dubas had said about development and knew that it was inline with what good developing teams do. But if once you are in charge you do the exact opposite only a fool would continue to support you on that issue.
But instead those blindly defending Dubas just switched to saying that the way you develop prospects no longer matters and all that matters is supporting whatever Dubas does.
zeke
The Dube Abides
- Mar 14, 2005
- 66,937
- 36,957
really?
how many other teams have a dcorps as good as ours, with a quality young prime homegrown player on each pairing, and 2 very nice 1st round pick 20/21yr old prospects on the verge of contributing?
You're too much man. Keep up the good fight - Status
