Sheldon Keefe Discussion

[IPS]

really?

how many other teams have a dcorps as good as ours, with a quality young prime homegrown player on each pairing, and 2 very nice 1st round pick 20/21yr old prospects on the verge of contributing?

If I told Zeke three years ago that Dermott would be precisely the same player three years from now he'd have called me crazy.

But here we are and Dermott is still a limited 3rd pairing D averaging 11 mins a game.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

If I told Zeke three years ago that Dermott would be precisely the same player three years from now he'd have called me crazy.

But here we are and Dermott is still a limited 3rd pairing D averaging 11 mins a game.

That's not quite accurate. What has really happened is that Dermott just hasn't become better than Reilly, Muzzin and Brodie, and Holl who was developed under the same D development system has fared a bit further so far and plays the right which we need more help on.

It's a little too simplistic to say that a D that plays 3rd pairing on any given D is a "3rd pairing defenseman". That's similar to saying Malkin has stagnated, not becoming better than a 2nd line centre. In summary, you'll need to do a bit better than these cliche's to make a meaningful point.

 

[IPS]

That's not quite accurate. What has really happened is that Dermott just hasn't become better than Reilly, Muzzin and Brodie, and Holl who was developed under the same D development system has fared a bit further so far and plays the right which we need more help on.

It's a little too simplistic to say that a D that plays 3rd pairing on any given D is a "3rd pairing defenseman". That's similar to saying Malkin has stagnated, not becoming better than a 2nd line centre. In summary, you'll need to do a bit better than these cliche's to make a meaningful point.

Riiiiigghhht

It's just this terribly unfortunate situation that the Leafs D has been so good that we can't have our prized prospect average more than 11 minutes a game contrary to what literally every other team who's been more successful developing D than Toronto has done.

The sad part is you guys actually believe this.

 

[stickty111]

Okay guys cut the off topic stuff. I get every thread is meant to turn into a bash Dubas discussion, but wow

Leafs have a great developmental system and there is little evidence to the contrary.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I did answer. I said that I wanted Sandin traded

That's not an answer to what he asked. That's dodging the question. You have shown zero understanding of what goes into proper development, and your statements are hilariously contradictory, and in many cases, blatantly false.

 

[zeke]

If I told Zeke three years ago that Dermott would be precisely the same player three years from now he'd have called me crazy.

But here we are and Dermott is still a limited 3rd pairing D averaging 11 mins a game.

If I told IPS three years ago that the Leafs would add Muzzin, Brodie, and have a homegrown dman blossom into a stud RHD on top of that, he would have called me crazy.

 

[Zybalto]

Coaching has been solid so far.

With the biggest problems being 3rd and 4th line performance (constantly adjusted to try and get them going) and the Rielly/Brodie pairing (thats on them really when Muzzin/Holl are taking the toughest matchups), not sure really sure coaching is an issue.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Also, it's quite interesting how people are pointing to Dermott's minutes this year in a 10-game sample where we've played 7 defensemen at times, and completely ignoring the 20+ minutes he was playing when Rielly was injured, and the career-high amount he played in the playoffs last year.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

If I told Zeke three years ago that Dermott would be precisely the same player three years from now he'd have called me crazy.

But here we are and Dermott is still a limited 3rd pairing D averaging 11 mins a game.

Actually you would be wrong. Dermott averaged 16 minutes per game in his first year, so he's really regressed since then

 

[Dekes For Days]

Dermott averaged 16 minutes per game in his first year, so he's really regressed since then

More accurately, our defense has improved around him since his first year.

 

[Bluelines]

If I told Zeke three years ago that Dermott would be precisely the same player three years from now he'd have called me crazy.

But here we are and Dermott is still a limited 3rd pairing D averaging 11 mins a game.

I think one needs to have the ability to understand hockey to be accurate 3 years later...

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Leafs shouldn’t have traded for Muzzin simply so Dermott could be designated at and playing second pairing minutes. Effectiveness be damned, it’s a bad look that he’s playing fewer minutes now than when he first came in, and that’s all that matters.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I couldn't have been more clear in my posts including the one you replied to that 1) I want Sandin traded (a position I have long held) 2) I don't care if he gets into games because getting into the odd game as injury relief is just a way of having players fail - as we saw with Holl (a position I have long held) and good developing teams don't use their good young prospects as injury relief 3) If he won a full-time spot, the team would simply do as terrible a job as they did with Dermott (a position I have long held).

This whole tirade basically amounts to "no matter what the Leafs do, I have predetermined that they have already f***ed up and Sandin is doomed." Talk about blindly going on about something.

"Duh....so you just think he should be gifted a spot..."

The team is a trainwreck when it comes to developing D. Has been the whole time Dubas has been with the organization. Starting with Matt Finn and Stuart Percy (two young top 35 picks with the Marlies when Dubas got there) going no where. And continues with Dubas developing his prospects in the exact way he said he would never do and said was harmful. The Leafs have done a terrible job with Sandin because they are a garbage organization when it comes to developing D. My position on that will not change whether they are playing Sandin or not.

Percy and Finn were drafted three and two years before Dubas even came on board, what the hell do they have to do with how this current regime develops players? Finn and Percy bounced around the minors before excommunicating themselves to Europe. I'd say perhaps they just weren't good enough, but you and others in here have already preemptively made that "joke" in favour of placing all the blame on Dubas. No one is simply not good enough, only the organization can fail them.

And more hardheadedness at the end of course, because why not.

Sandin should have never played a game until the team was certain that both he and the team were ready for him to be permanent. Failing on that multiple times, he should have been put on off-season training starting in March instead of being told to stay in game shape. Failing to put his development first again with that, he should have been sent to the SHL for the season in the fall. Now the team just looks like idiots again with him having not played a game in almost a year, but when you do idiotic things you look like an idiot.

They did this with Dermott but you said they've done a terrible job with him and would do the same with Sandin, so not sure why you're advocating for something you said is going to fail.

We won't know how these decisions regarding Sandin's development will play out for a while yet. The AHL starts soon and he'll definitely get playing time then.

As for what Keefe said, all coaches say that the players they are not playing need to do more work. If it was an issue he wouldn't be on the taxi squad. Furthermore if you are an organization which doesn't have competition for spots and which gifts unearned spots to euro free wallets every year, then you are going to end up in a situation where other players know that their work will always go unrewarded within the organization.

Barabanov and Lehtonen have been yoyo'd in and out of the line up all season and had minimal playing time, hardly been gifted spots.

 

[Martin Skoula]

That's not quite accurate. What has really happened is that Dermott just hasn't become better than Reilly, Muzzin and Brodie, and Holl who was developed under the same D development system has fared a bit further so far and plays the right which we need more help on.

It's a little too simplistic to say that a D that plays 3rd pairing on any given D is a "3rd pairing defenseman". That's similar to saying Malkin has stagnated, not becoming better than a 2nd line centre. In summary, you'll need to do a bit better than these cliche's to make a meaningful point.

In terms of asset management, he has a point. Dermott's been worth roughly a 2nd round pick his entire career, the divide of potential vs play quality has just been pivoting towards the quality end bit by bit.

 

[The Podium]

I couldn't have been more clear in my posts including the one you replied to that 1) I want Sandin traded (a position I have long held) 2) I don't care if he gets into games because getting into the odd game as injury relief is just a way of having players fail - as we saw with Holl (a position I have long held) and good developing teams don't use their good young prospects as injury relief 3) If he won a full-time spot, the team would simply do as terrible a job as they did with Dermott (a position I have long held).

"Duh....so you just think he should be gifted a spot..."

The team is a trainwreck when it comes to developing D. Has been the whole time Dubas has been with the organization. Starting with Matt Finn and Stuart Percy (two young top 35 picks with the Marlies when Dubas got there) going no where. And continues with Dubas developing his prospects in the exact way he said he would never do and said was harmful. The Leafs have done a terrible job with Sandin because they are a garbage organization when it comes to developing D. My position on that will not change whether they are playing Sandin or not.

Sandin should have never played a game until the team was certain that both he and the team were ready for him to be permanent. Failing on that multiple times, he should have been put on off-season training starting in March instead of being told to stay in game shape. Failing to put his development first again with that, he should have been sent to the SHL for the season in the fall. Now the team just looks like idiots again with him having not played a game in almost a year, but when you do idiotic things you look like an idiot.

As for what Keefe said, all coaches say that the players they are not playing need to do more work. If it was an issue he wouldn't be on the taxi squad. Furthermore if you are an organization which doesn't have competition for spots and which gifts unearned spots to euro free wallets every year, then you are going to end up in a situation where other players know that their work will always go unrewarded within the organization.

Marlies players that have graduated to the NHL while Dubas has been part of the organization:
(Only including players who made the NHL full time)

Connor Brown
William Nylander
Josh Leivo
Brendan Leipsic
Zach Hyman
Richard Panik
Kasperi Kapanen
Justin Holl
Fredrick Gauthier
Connor Carrick
Scott Harrington
Travis Dermott
Andreas Johnsson
Trevor Moore
Dmytro Timashov
Pierre Engvall

I think its safe to say that the Leafs understand the transition from AHL to NHL...

No there arent many world beaters, especially at D, but thats because top prospects rarely get the opportunity to play in the AHL and the Marlies D have relied mostly on vets recently. But they have been pumping out quality NHLers for a while now. Also Matt Finn and Dubas' tenure here overlapped for a handful of months.

 

[biotk]

This whole tirade basically amounts to "no matter what the Leafs do, I have predetermined that they have already f***ed up and Sandin is doomed." Talk about blindly going on about something.

When you develop players badly it follows them. Pretty simple.

Percy and Finn were drafted three and two years before Dubas even came on board, what the hell do they have to do with how this current regime develops players?

So when Dubas gets hired and is in charge of development on the Marlies, and talks about how he is doing things differently on the Marlies when it comes to development the development of players who he had on the Marlies at that time don't count. But don't worry I am sure that you will just blame the players.

I'd say perhaps they just weren't good enough

Like clockwork.

They did this with Dermott but you said they've done a terrible job with him and would do the same with Sandin, so not sure why you're advocating for something you said is going to fail.

I have said over and over again what the Leafs did right and wrong with Dermott's development and it is something that I am consistent with with all prospects because I understand how development works and how good developing teams develop prospects, as well as how Dubas said prospects must be developed before he starting doing the exact opposite. Perhaps if you actually learned about development you would know things.

Bringing Dermott into the lineup as a permanent player just like all good developing teams do - right.
Not giving Dermott an appropriate partner to mentor him (again which all good developing teams do) - wrong.
Not challenging Dermott up the lineup during the good times, and instead training him to be nothing more than an extremely sheltered 3rd pairing D, until a bunch of injuries happen and then throwing him up the lineup in that chaotic situations - down right stupid.

I acknowledge the one right thing they did with Dermott (as well as the two right things they did with Holl and the zero right things they have done with Sandin), but also the multiple bad ways in which they developed him - again because I understand development and my views are based on evidence, not cult-like support.

We won't know how these decisions regarding Sandin's development will play out for a while yet. The AHL starts soon and he'll definitely get playing time then.

Don't worry - when Sandin doesn't turn out because of the terrible way the Leafs have and continue to develop him you already your response: "he just wasn't good enough"

Barabanov and Lehtonen have been yoyo'd in and out of the line up all season and had minimal playing time, hardly been gifted spots.

Barabanov and Lehtonen did not earn a single game, but have played because they were gifted spots.

 

[biotk]

Marlies players that have graduated to the NHL while Dubas has been part of the organization:
(Only including players who made the NHL full time)

Connor Brown
William Nylander
Josh Leivo
Brendan Leipsic
Zach Hyman
Richard Panik
Kasperi Kapanen
Justin Holl
Fredrick Gauthier
Connor Carrick
Scott Harrington
Travis Dermott
Andreas Johnsson
Trevor Moore
Dmytro Timashov
Pierre Engvall

I think its safe to say that the Leafs understand the transition from AHL to NHL...

No there arent many world beaters, especially at D, but thats because top prospects rarely get the opportunity to play in the AHL and the Marlies D have relied mostly on vets recently. But they have been pumping out quality NHLers for a while now. Also Matt Finn and Dubas' tenure here overlapped for a handful of months.

Matt Finn who played 28 games on the Marlies under Dubas doesn't count, but Harrington and Carrick, who had already played in the NHL before coming to the Leafs, and played 17 and 5 games for the Marlies before returning to being #6/7 Ds do count. You can't make this stuff up.

 

[The Podium]

Matt Finn who played 28 games on the Marlies under Dubas doesn't count, but Harrington and Carrick, who had already played in the NHL before coming to the Leafs, and played 17 and 5 games for the Marlies before returning to being #6/7 Ds do count. You can't make this stuff up.

When did I say Matt Finn didnt count? Just mentioning that they didnt overlap for long...

Also you questioned 2 out of 16 player list.

YoU CaNt MaKe ThIs StUfF uP

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Like clockwork.

Way to omit my acknowledgment of your holier than thou viewpoint but ok. What an asinine position. “There are no bad prospects, only bad organizations.”

 

[biotk]

When did I say Matt Finn didnt count? Just mentioning that they didnt overlap for long...

Also you questioned 2 out of 16 player list.

YoU CaNt MaKe ThIs StUfF uP

Yes, I didn't question the many forwards who you brought up in a discussion about the Leafs and Dubas being bad at D development.

I have already discussed many times
Dermott who now at 24 has not progressed in 3 years and is getting an extremely sheltered 11 minutes a game on the third pairing with no special teams and Holl who was playing for a team so incompetent that they brought in Euro free agents like Oz to block him from playing, and looked so bad being played as in injury replacement (because it is a terrible way to develop players) that most of the fanbase wanted him waived (including you) until they couldn't find a Euro free agent one year and were stuck giving players like Holl a spot to compete for for once.

Then you have Connor Carrick who was acquired to play for the Leafs (and played 16 games for them before playing 5 total games for the Marlies) and Scott Harrington who was also acquired to play for the Leafs (and played 15 games for them before playing 17 games for the Marlies and heading elsewhere).

Team sucks at developing D, has the entire time Dubas has been with the team, and has done a completely terrible job with Sandin and Liljegren.

 

[biotk]

Way to omit my acknowledgment of your holier than thou viewpoint but ok. What an asinine position. “There are no bad prospects, only bad organizations.”

The Leafs are the greatest team at developing and drafting, but they have failed to develop any of their D draft picks because they are all bad prospects.

 

[hotpaws]

Way to omit my acknowledgment of your holier than thou viewpoint but ok. What an asinine position. “There are no bad prospects, only bad organizations.”

more like

player makes the NHL - great job Dubas

player busts - player wasn't good enough

unfortunately it's more like there's no magical development system and it basically comes down to giving a player an opportunity in the right situation and hoping he takes it and runs

so then the question becomes have the Leafs put Sandin or any other prospect in the right situation ?

 

[Avilaj07]

When the lineup is fully healthy, I really hope this is what Keefe goes with.

Hyman- Matthews- Nylander
Robertson- Tavares- Marner
Mikheyev- Kerfoot- Engvall
Boyd- Spezza/Thornton- Simmonds

Rielly-Brodie
Muzzin-Holl
Dermott-Bogosian
Sandin

Thornton and Spezza rotate days off as needed. Keeping them somewhat fresh will prove to be critical come playoff time.

Vesey and Barabanov have done nothing to warrant a position over the other guys.

Lehtonen as well doesn't seem to have panned out as most of us have hoped. The game just seems a little too fast for him at the moment. It's a shame we only have him locked in for 1 year because I think with a full year of experience, he'll be a lot better next year if he returns.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

At the end of the day, the Leafs have three developed defensemen on the roster, one on each pairing, and two who developed under Dubas. If that’s an example of “poor development” then most NHL teams are putrid at developing defensemen.

Dermott isn’t higher in the lineup because, frankly, the Leafs have more talented and specialized defensemen ahead of him. I can’t believe the Leafs are losing points with people because they went out and improved the team.

Just because Dermott isn’t playing top four minutes or facing top four worthy competition doesn’t mean he can’t. It’s just by circumstance and his handedness that he isn’t.

The Leafs are the greatest team at developing and drafting, but they have failed to develop any of their D draft picks because they are all bad prospects.

Yep, this is why our roster doesn’t have any drafted and/or developed defensemen on it. Sorry Rielly, Holl, Dermott. You guys don’t count.

more like

player makes the NHL - great job Dubas

player busts - player wasn't good enough

unfortunately it's more like there's no magical development system and it basically comes down to giving a player an opportunity in the right situation and hoping he takes it and runs

so then the question becomes have the Leafs put Sandin or any other prospect in the right situation ?

Dubas has had three drafts so far since becoming GM. Hardly enough time to call the higher drafted players busts right now or that they weren’t developed properly. You’re all free to go ahead and do so if you want, but most will have patience while they develop.

Also again what a dumb argument. You can do everything right by a prospect and sometimes they just can’t cut it. I can’t believe this is such a heavy point of contention.

Leafs have Sandin travelling and practicing with the team, which is about the best you could ask for in a pandemic world that has so far kept our farm team from playing, where Sandin would be getting reps. Should they have had Sandin and Liljegren overseas playing? Maybe, or perhaps the organization wanted them working out and bulking up between the bubble playoffs and the start of this new NHL season, something @biotk was very upset about them not doing between the COVID pause and the bubble, but is now mad that they weren’t playing in an inferior league. Great logic.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The Leafs are the greatest team at developing and drafting, but they have failed to develop any of their D draft picks because they are all bad prospects.

1. Nobody said our drafting was good before Dubas.
2. Half of Toronto's defense is home-grown, despite this.
3. Dubas' picks are all really young still and progressing well, and there are no signs of development issues.