Sheldon Keefe Discussion Thread

[Racer88]

...you're upset that the team celebrated winning?

Of course not. I was making the point to you that a shootout win was not meaningless

 

[Dekes For Days]

Of course not. I was making the point to you that a shootout win was not meaningless

Wins are always going to be celebrated by the team. That doesn't change the fact that there isn't much meaning that can be drawn from shootout outcomes.
Also not really what my post was about...

 

[ACC1224]

Meaningless…..tell that to the Leaf players that celebrated like it was 1999

Seemed to me they were celebrating Kerfoot scoring more so than the win. He may not be liked by many fans but he’s very popular in the room.

 

[Arzak]

Seemed to me they were celebrating Kerfoot scoring more so than the win. He may not be liked by many fans but he’s very popular in the room.

I thought the same thing. Kerfoot cementing his place in lineup.

 

[ACC1224]

I thought the same thing. Kerfoot cementing his place in lineup.

He’s always had a place cemented, IMO.

 

[Racer88]

Seemed to me they were celebrating Kerfoot scoring more so than the win. He may not be liked by many fans but he’s very popular in the room.

maybe

 

[CDN24]

And they absolutely failed at that job. That line's damage wasn't limited by anything Danault did. They got dominated in play and were outscored. The extent of the damage was only limited by Price playing amazing, some post puck luck, and Matthews playing through a surgery-requiring injury.

And you are blaming Price, the guy playing through a career ending injury. Time for AM34 to suck it up and lead this team

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Of course not. I was making the point to you that a shootout win was not meaningless

It is though, all these games are meaningless until the Playoffs start

 

[egd27]

The stat should stand on its own merits no?

I mean, we could add he's also had more injuries to deal with and worse goaltending than most of the others coaches at the top of the list all while dealing with not just a cap system but a system in which covid screwed a the cap teams hard certainly making his life harder but why pump him up even more eh?

He's obviously a really good coach.

Depends.

How many other coaches had around 20% of their first 250 games played in a 7 team division coupled with more than 20% of the games awarding 3 points ?

 

[Zybalto]

Depends.

How many other coaches had around 20% of their first 250 games played in a 7 team division coupled with more than 20% of the games awarding 3 points ?

Every other coach in modern times that also played during the covid league that Keefe also has an advantage over?

Just look at active ones (and throw in Evason as he has 220 games in) and how they fare in the best coach award voting (a regular season award)

1. Keefe: .677 - No Adams nominations
2. Brind'Amour: .666 - Adams win
3. Evason: .664 - Adams nomination
4. Cooper: .648 - 2 Adams nominations
5. Cassidy: .637 - 1 Adams win and a nomination

All the evidence says Keefe gets less respect than he deserves and the flak around him here seems a little misplaced. Even those considering the playoffs have to be struck by the Leafs goalies putting up sub .890s and soft goals in elimination games as not really having much to do with the coaching (when the Leafs outshoot opponants an average of 37-29 in those games)

Even this year, the Leafs rank near the top of the league for injuries including a decimated Dcore for much of the first half of the year and are going to end up a top 5 team again but does anyone even hear talk of Keefe being up there for the Adams? Why?

Dubas, even handcuffed by the covid cap after striking big deals, deserves more criticism than Keefe and its ultimately going to be goaltending that pushes the team deep into the playoffs. Let's see if these new guys can put up the first big goaltending game in the playoffs since Belfour.

 

[egd27]

Every other coach in modern times that also played during the covid league that Keefe also has an advantage over?

Just look at active ones (and throw in Evason as he has 220 games in) and how they fare in the best coach award voting (a regular season award)

1. Keefe: .677 - No Adams nominations
2. Brind'Amour: .666 - Adams win
3. Evason: .664 - Adams nomination
4. Cooper: .648 - 2 Adams nominations
5. Cassidy: .637 - 1 Adams win and a nomination

All the evidence says Keefe gets less respect than he deserves and the flak around him here seems a little misplaced. Even those considering the playoffs have to be struck by the Leafs goalies putting up sub .890s and soft goals in elimination games as not really having much to do with the coaching (when the Leafs outshoot opponants an average of 37-29 in those games)

Even this year, the Leafs rank near the top of the league for injuries including a decimated Dcore for much of the first half of the year and are going to end up a top 5 team again but does anyone even hear talk of Keefe being up there for the Adams? Why?

Dubas, even handcuffed by the covid cap after striking big deals, deserves more criticism than Keefe and its ultimately going to be goaltending that pushes the team deep into the playoffs. Let's see if these new guys can put up the first big goaltending game in the playoffs since Belfour.

Only Brind'Amour and Evason had the "covid league" included in their first 250 games as coach. Not exactly "in all history"

So he has a better winning % than two guys in a similar situation.

82 game paces
Keefe 111
Brind'Amour 109
Evason 109

 

[Dekes For Days]

And you are blaming Price

I'm not "blaming Price" for anything. I'm acknowledging his undeniable high level of play that contributed to the outcome you saw, and led Montreal to the Cup finals.
You're attempting to attribute something to Danault that he had nothing to do with.

 

[Dekes For Days]

How many other coaches had around 20% of their first 250 games played in a 7 team division coupled with more than 20% of the games awarding 3 points ?

Divisions and schedules have never been stagnant and unchanging. The 2021 season doesn't really change anything.
You could argue the 3 point game thing, but we've had multiple decades of that now, and even adjusting for that, Keefe would be right up there.

 

[CDN24]

I'm not "blaming Price" for anything. I'm acknowledging his undeniable high level of play that contributed to the outcome you saw, and led Montreal to the Cup finals.
You're attempting to attribute something to Danault that he had nothing to do with.

I was pointing out that you were crediting Price's great play on knees that are so done his career is over but still using the injury excuse for Matthews.

There is a reason Danault makes less than half what Matthews does- he is not as good. Matthews line should have been outplaying that line by a lot.. but they weren't. Danault, Gallagher and Evans don't have to win that matchup to win, they just have to limit the damage.

In that game 6 and 7 that line had a combined Cap hit of 7.55M (Gallagher 3.75M, Danault 3.1M and Evans 700K) That leaves money to pay others. If you are paying someone over $10M they better be the best player at their position by a lot. Mtl's 10M dollar guy was, Matthews wasn't and neither was Marner.
He did
nothing in game 1
1G 2A in the 5-1 blowout
Nothing in Game 3
Nothing in Game 4
one assist in Game 5
Nothing in Game 6
An assist on his teams only goal at the 18 Min mark of a 3-1 loss in a winner take all game.

In the 3 games where they could have eliminated the Habs he had 2 assists - one after the series was effectively lost. Marner had 1 assist on the same goal in game 5.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I was pointing out that you were crediting Price's great play on knees that are so done his career is over but still using the injury excuse for Matthews.

Matthews' wrist injury was one of multiple factors that impacted conversion for that line in that series.
I see nothing that suggests that Price was injured during our series. He was one of the best goalies in the playoffs, and not just against us.

There is a reason Danault makes less than half what Matthews does- he is not as good. Matthews line should have been outplaying that line by a lot.. but they weren't. Danault, Gallagher and Evans don't have to win that matchup to win, they just have to limit the damage.

Matthews' line should be outplaying the Danault line, and they did, by quite a bit. Danault's line didn't limit damage. Danault's line got caved in, and the damage was only limited by things that had nothing to do with them.

 

[Folignos Helmet]

Kerfoot - Matthews - Jarnkrok
Bunting - Tavares - Marner
McMann - Lafferty - Nylander
Aston-Reese - Kampf - Acciari

Anyone for the Robbie Ftorek with Keefe?

 

[CDN24]

Matthews' wrist injury was one of multiple factors that impacted conversion for that line in that series.
I see nothing that suggests that Price was injured during our series. He was one of the best goalies in the playoffs, and not just against us.

Matthews' line should be outplaying the Danault line, and they did, by quite a bit. Danault's line didn't limit damage. Danault's line got caved in, and the damage was only limited by things that had nothing to do with them.

You see nothing to suggest he was injured. Other than being unable to play before the playoffs started and only 5 games since those playoffs because of his ongoing knee injuries.

If caving someone in means that the the third highest and 7th highest paid players in the league get one goal between them in a 7 game series I'll take being caved in any day.

Their is no justifying or excusing the outcome of that series. The truly sad part, the Leafs and Keefe didn't seem to realize that losing it was even a possibility until the 2nd intermission of game 7. Keefe talks respect in handshake line, maybe if they had respected their lessor opponents more they might have won a series by now.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You see nothing to suggest he was injured. Other than being unable to play before the playoffs started and only 5 games since those playoffs because of his ongoing knee injuries.

No, there's no indication that he was injured for our series. He played in the 2020-2021 season prior to the playoffs, he played every single second for them in the playoffs and played fantastically as he led his team to the Stanley Cup Finals, and there are no reports of him being injured for our series. His career is not in a good place right now, after surgery, complications in his recovery, and entering the substance abuse program, but that doesn't mean he was injured in his series against us.
Also wouldn't really change the fact that he was spectacular, regardless.

If caving someone in means that the the third highest and 7th highest paid players in the league get one goal between them in a 7 game series I'll take being caved in any day.

The Matthews/Marner line outscored their opposition 3-1, and Danault had nothing to do with it not being even worse.
Getting caved in, outscored, and lucking into the extent of the damage being limited by everything except your play isn't a success.

 

[CDN24]

No, there's no indication that he was injured for our series. He played in the 2020-2021 season prior to the playoffs, he played every single second for them in the playoffs and played fantastically as he led his team to the Stanley Cup Finals, and there are no reports of him being injured for our series. His career is not in a good place right now, after surgery, complications in his recovery, and entering the substance abuse program, but that doesn't mean he was injured in his series against us.
Also wouldn't really change the fact that he was spectacular, regardless.

The Matthews/Marner line outscored their opposition 3-1, and Danault had nothing to do with it not being even worse.
Getting caved in, outscored, and lucking into the extent of the damage being limited by everything except your play isn't a success.

Price was injured leading up to that series - missed a ton of time, It was obvious he was hurt and playing through it. He played in Habs 36th game of the season on April 5th. During the next 20 games until season ended he played 1 full game (april 17thth) and 1 period (april 19th) out of the last 20 games of the season. he missed the last month of regular season only playing again in game 1 against Leafs on May 20th If you didn't know he was injured you obviously weren't paying attention.

Ask any of the other 31 teams they will gladly take being outscored by 3-1 by Leafs top line in a 7 game series. If you limit Leafs top line to 3 goals in a 7 game series more often than not you win because they provide the bulk of the teams offense.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Price was injured leading up to that series

We're not talking about that. He missed the end of the season with a concussion, but was healthy for the start of the series, and played a game in the AHL to prepare.
"Price said Sunday that he is feeling healthy and is optimistic about the Canadiens beginning the Stanley Cup Playoffs with a clean slate."
""It's a golden opportunity, we're all excited to play," Price said."
""It wasn't a pleasant time, so I'm thankful to be feeling better now," Price said."
You've brought absolutely nothing to support the idea that he was injured for our series. And as I already noted, it wouldn't change the fact that he played amazing anyway.

Ask any of the other 31 teams they will gladly take being outscored by 3-1 by Leafs top line in a 7 game series.

I doubt every other team would be thrilled with being outscored, but regardless, doesn't change the fact that they weren't limited because of Danault.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I hope Keefe only f***s about with the lineup for the next three games, then uses the final 10 games to settle everyone and have them build chemistry. Possession numbers have been poor recently and while I understand why that is, we need to get back on track in that regard before facing Tampa.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I hope Keefe only f***s about with the lineup for the next three games, then uses the final 10 games to settle everyone and have them build chemistry. Possession numbers have been poor recently and while I understand why that is, we need to get back on track in that regard before facing Tampa.

I imagine we start really cementing things when O'Rielly is back.

 

[FiveHoleo]

That's not the plan with Kampf but we got hemmed in. If we win the face-off and gain possession he's right off the ice.

You would think that would be the plan, however that is not the reality. For reference go back to the overtime against Edmonton when Kampf started, they won the faceoff and he stayed on for an entire (ineffective) shift. Even the announcers said Kampf would be off after the faceoff and were perplexed by his continued presence while millions of dollars of skill sat on the bench.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I hope Keefe only f***s about with the lineup for the next three games, then uses the final 10 games to settle everyone and have them build chemistry. Possession numbers have been poor recently and while I understand why that is, we need to get back on track in that regard before facing Tampa.

Actually, forget about three more games. f***ing set the lineup now and stick with it. Enough of the line juggling. He’s been f***ing around with the lineup for two weeks. That’s long enough to know what works and what doesn’t.

 

[1specter]

I'm hoping Sullivan gets canned in Pittsburgh and we can replace Keefe's ass with him