Value of: Shane Pinto to Montreal

[pth2]

This was discussed in another thread... it didn't get far: Sens fans expect prime value for a guy they see as a high-end #2 center, Habs fans expect to pay the "other team under pressure" price for a possible #3 center.

I suggested something like Evans at 50%, a 2nd and Barron (could also be Harris or another non-Guhle, non-Xhekaj D), and Sens fans were unimpressed.

From my POV, Habs 1st rounders are too likely to be high for a while, meaning even a top-5 protected pick is still likely to end up being a top-5 pick. (ie, a top-5 protected pick in 2024 could just end up being an unprotected 2025 pick, which Habs management won't do. Even the 2025 Calgary pick could well end up being very high).

EDIT: The best suggestion was likely that the cost would be similar to Newhook, who cost a #31 and #37 pick. So, 2 very, very good 2nd rounders would be pretty close.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Guhle is better at every facet of the game than Sanderson!!

We are going to be returning to that take for the next 20 yrs, a la Wellwood > Spezza

Would have to be an overpayment. Pinto is projecting to be an excellent 2 way 50-60 point centerman. Those don't grow on trees.

The sens won't want to do quantity trades here for a bunch of 2nd round picks of lesser prospects.

Would probably want to do a 1for1 for an equally valuable young 2 way center...so it seems redundant.

It would need to be a center who can be a top defensive center, but also be a threat to score 20-30 goals who can pop into the top 6 and not look out of place.

I don't think Montreal has that. Maybe Dach? But he's injured all year.

Maybe newhook?

Otherwise no thank you, honestly.

More like ew-hook

I like the player just fine but Pinto is a) just as if not more affordable & b) a wayyyy better fit for what our team needs.

 

[jbeck5]

This was discussed in another thread... it didn't get far: Sens fans expect prime value for a guy they see as a high-end #2 center, Habs fans expect to pay the "other team under pressure" price for a possible #3 center.

I suggested something like Evans at 50%, a 2nd and Barron (could also be Harris or another non-Guhle, non-Xhekaj D), and Sens fans were unimpressed.

From my POV, Habs 1st rounders are too likely to be high for a while, meaning even a top-5 protected pick is still likely to end up being a top-5 pick. (ie, a top-5 protected pick in 2024 could just end up being an unprotected 2025 pick, which Habs management won't do. Even the 2025 Calgary pick could well end up being very high).

EDIT: The best suggestion was likely that the cost would be similar to Newhook, who cost a #31 and #37 pick. So, 2 very, very good 2nd rounders would be pretty close.

Which is why I don't think a trade makes sense.

Sens fans value Pinto a lot more than Montreal fans value Pinto, and that's ok.

It just means no trade.

Sens don't even want to trade Pinto, so it's no sweat off their back if Montreal doesn't see Pinto the same.

We move on. Hopefully with Pinto signed soon.

 

[pth2]

Which is why I don't think a trade makes sense.

Sens fans value Pinto a lot more than Montreal fans value Pinto, and that's ok.

It just means no trade.

Sens don't even want to trade Pinto, so it's no sweat off their back if Montreal doesn't see Pinto the same.

We move on. Hopefully with Pinto signed soon.

If ever there is a deal, whether with Montreal or not, Ottawa is a team under cap pressure, as well as a GM trying to keep his job by making the playoffs, so I expect the next deal Ottawa makes won't look good to fans.

OTOH, teams like SJ, Montreal and Philly have no expectation of making the playoffs or even competing seriously, so they can afford to be picky, and can simply choose not to make deals that aren't to their liking.

 

[jbeck5]

We are going to be returning to that take for the next 20 yrs, a la Wellwood > Spezza


More like ew-hook

I like the player just fine but Pinto is a) just as if not more affordable & b) a wayyyy better fit for what our team needs.

Oh, I agree.

I don't want to trade Pinto at all.

"We. Want. Pinto"

I was just I guess trying to enforce that Ottawa isn't looking for a quantity for quality trade, so it would likely have to be 1for1. Also, Ottawa doesn't want to trade him in the first place.

So realistically, that 1for1 offer would need to be a player that is even better than Pinto, or else what's the point?

So realistically there isn't a trade to be made here. Even a better player, like Caufield, isn't a need for Ottawa.(not to mention cap hit). Caufield would be very similar to debrincat, which I think we all realize isn't a need. Sens have plenty of offensive guys capable of 20-30-40 goals in their lineup. They need a 2way dominant middle 6 center. They need Pinto.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

If ever there is a deal, whether with Montreal or not, Ottawa is a team under cap pressure, as well as a GM trying to keep his job by making the playoffs, so I expect the next deal Ottawa makes won't look good to fans.

OTOH, teams like SJ, Montreal and Philly have no expectation of making the playoffs or even competing seriously, so they can afford to be picky, and can simply choose not to make deals that aren't to their liking.

The GM answers to a guy with a ton of job security and even if Pinto was available to play tomorrow, I'm not sure he would be in the top 9. We have 10 top 9 players (including Pinto), and 9 of them are on the ice, playing with chemistry, and flying out there. Greig and Tarasenko have a natural chemistry that would be risky to mess with, and there is no way he's bumping anyone else.

Things can change very quickly, but the pressure to get Pinto into the lineup has largely subsided. PP, PK, and the top 9 are all well-staffed and there is no one on any of those lines who deserves to be moved down.

 

[jbeck5]

If ever there is a deal, whether with Montreal or not, Ottawa is a team under cap pressure, as well as a GM trying to keep his job by making the playoffs, so I expect the next deal Ottawa makes won't look good to fans.

OTOH, teams like SJ, Montreal and Philly have no expectation of making the playoffs or even competing seriously, so they can afford to be picky, and can simply choose not to make deals that aren't to their liking.

I keep hearing that, but if Ottawa keeps winning, and other teams get injuries, they're not going to care if they help Ottawa or not(especially western teams) so there very well could be some injuries where a couple teams are all of a sudden competing to get brannstroms services...or kubalik....etc.

Like, if San Jose or some random team thinks they can get brannstrom for a good price and he improves their backend, they're not going to play hardball because they don't want Ottawa to gain an advantage in the east. They're worried about making their own team better and plugging holes. Especially with young assets that are cost controlled.

I don't see it as bleak as you do. There's only a handful of teams that should be worried about if the Senators gain an inch or not. You think Vegas cares about if Ottawa gets Pinto in their lineup or not? I highly doubt that's a concern of theirs.

If a team sees an asset at a good price that can help their team, they'll pull the trigger. Would seem extremely petty to refuse to improve your team because you want to milk team 20/32 specifically.

 

[pth2]

I keep hearing that, but if Ottawa keeps winning, and other teams get injuries, they're not going to care if they help Ottawa or not(especially western teams) so there very well could be some injuries where a couple teams are all of a sudden competing to get brannstroms services...or kubalik....etc.

Like, if San Jose or some random team thinks they can get brannstrom for a good price and he improves their backend, they're not going to play hardball because they don't want Ottawa to gain an advantage in the east. They're worried about making their own team better and plugging holes. Especially with young assets that are cost controlled.

I don't see it as bleak as you do. There's only a handful of teams that should be worried about if the Senators gain an inch or not. You think Vegas cares about if Ottawa gets Pinto in their lineup or not? I highly doubt that's a concern of theirs.

If a team sees an asset at a good price that can help their team, they'll pull the trigger. Would seem extremely petty to refuse to improve your team because you want to milk team 20/32 specifically.

I wasn't saying the pressure is from other teams hoping to get ahead of them in the standings, so much as pressure on Ottawa to ice a competitive team, as well as a very tight cap.

You're right that injuries can change everything, though, in all kinds of ways.

Still, it's not a good look for Ottawa to have a guy unsigned and no caproom to sign him.

 

[jbeck5]

I wasn't saying the pressure is from other teams hoping to get ahead of them in the standings, so much as pressure on Ottawa to ice a competitive team, as well as a very tight cap.

You're right that injuries can change everything, though, in all kinds of ways.

Still, it's not a good look for Ottawa to have a guy unsigned and no caproom to sign him.

I think the biggest factor in how they look is if they keep winning games.

 

[pth2]

I think the biggest factor in how they look is if they keep winning games.

Your 3 wins are nice and all, but it's kind of early to be gloating, isn't it ?

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Your 3 wins are nice and all, but it's kind of early to be gloating, isn't it ?

Lol no one is gloating. Ottawa is playing well and therefore there is less urgency to get Pinto in the lineup. That’s all. Everyone has said that things can change very quickly, but we have 9 forwards in our top 9 who are performing very well so far and there is no guarantee that Pinto is an immediate upgrade on any of them. Sorry that things haven’t crumbled to your liking.

 

[jbeck5]

Your 3 wins are nice and all, but it's kind of early to be gloating, isn't it ?

I'm not gloating. (Why the f would you think I'm gloating?)

I'm stating a fact. If they keep winning games, they won't look bad.

If the sens are 8-2 after 10 games, they won't look bad. Even if they have an RFA unsigned.

Jesus.

 

[pth2]

Lol no one is gloating. Ottawa is playing well and therefore there is less urgency to get Pinto in the lineup. That’s all. Everyone has said that things can change very quickly, but we have 9 forwards in our top 9 who are performing very well so far and there is no guarantee that Pinto is an immediate upgrade on any of them. Sorry that things haven’t crumbled to your liking.

It gets confusing - Pinto seems to be both a key cog as a potential strong #2 center, and hence can't be traded for anything less than a high-end player (even a pretty high first isn't enough, unless it's top 5, apparently), and yet, he is also unworthy of the top 9 on the Sens.

I'm not sure both those things can be true at the same time.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

It gets confusing - Pinto seems to be both a key cog as a potential strong #2 center, and hence can't be traded for anything less than a high-end player (even a pretty high first isn't enough, unless it's top 5, apparently), and yet, he is also unworthy of the top 9 on the Sens.

I'm not sure both those things can be true at the same time.

If I manipulated what was being said to the degree that you have, I'd probably be confused too. I think anyone who is looking at this without some weird angle can probably see things pretty clearly, though.

Have a good one!

 

[jbeck5]

It gets confusing - Pinto seems to be both a key cog as a potential strong #2 center, and hence can't be traded for anything less than a high-end player (even a pretty high first isn't enough, unless it's top 5, apparently), and yet, he is also unworthy of the top 9 on the Sens.

I'm not sure both those things can be true at the same time.

Because you generally don't mess with a winning lineup.

It doesn't mean he wouldn't have a spot cemented when they reshuffle their lines.

It's just hard to break up 3 lines that are doing very well. There's no rush, despite how good Pinto is.

The sens are actually pretty deep. Especially with the emergency of Greig. The sens being deep doesn't make Pinto any less good. It just puts less pressure on rushing him back.

And they would probably start him off slow since he missed camp. He could center the 4th line and slowly get more ice time to kind of act as preseason games to get his feet wet for the season.

 

[pth2]

Because you generally don't mess with a winning lineup.

It doesn't mean he wouldn't have a spot cemented when they reshuffle their lines.

It's just hard to break up 3 lines that are doing very well. There's no rush, despite how good Pinto is.

The sens are actually pretty deep. Especially with the emergency of Greig. The sens being deep doesn't make Pinto any less good. It just puts less pressure on rushing him back.

And they would probably start him off slow since he missed camp. He could center the 4th line and slowly get more ice time to kind of act as preseason games to get his feet wet for the season.

But you also don't leave a guy in the stands, unsigned, just because you're winning games right now.

As to Greig, his emergence is part of why Pinto might be available, IMHO. If management sees Greig as a better fit for long-term 3d line C, they might see Pinto as available (though what they'd be expecting to receive remains an open question)

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

But you also don't leave a guy in the stands, unsigned, just because you're winning games right now.

As to Greig, his emergence is part of why Pinto might be available, IMHO. If management sees Greig as a better fit for long-term 3d line C, they might see Pinto as available (though what they'd be expecting to receive remains an open question)

No, Ottawa needs Pinto & Greig longterm. Tarasenko & Kubalik won't be here forever, at most we will retain one of them next season, and Pinto and Greig will both 100% be in our top 9 - one likely in the top 6 - at that point.

 

[Gaston Gingras]

Pinto is way too much overrated on this board!

 

[dirtydanglez]

calgary 1st and xhekaj

 

[Tanknation]

Pinto is way too much overrated on this board!

No, just by Sens fans. You would think they were not trading a one time 20 goal scorer but instead Mcdavid.
Harvey Pinard had better stats per 82 than this guy. I guess he is worth top young D prospect and a 1st.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Harris is nowhere near what it would take, imo. Harris is a good young player but more of a #4/5.

Guhle can play both sides and is good enough that I would make the deal - assuming there is no path forward with Pinto. Same as with Dach. If Pinto is willing to sign/doesn't want out, I don't think any deal with MTL makes sense.


No interest at all.

If Guhle was a non-starter for PLD I don’t see how he could be on the table for Pinto.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

If Guhle was a non-starter for PLD I don’t see how he could be on the table for Pinto.

I'm not saying that MTL would ever consider trading Guhle, let alone for Pinto. I doubt they would.

Things would have to be pretty damn icy between the team & Pinto for me to want to trade Pinto for Dach. But if MTL comes asking about Pinto, those are the guys I bring up.

 

[notdoneyet]

With the cap space from Dach being done for the season

Sign pinto to an offer sheet of 3m for 4 years
Ottawa can’t match the done have the cap space and poof Montreal has their young second line center with size for a draft pick

 

[caymanmew]

With the cap space from Dach being done for the season

Sign pinto to an offer sheet of 3m for 4 years
Ottawa can’t match the done have the cap space and poof Montreal has their young second line center with size for a draft pick

He is not able to be offer sheeted

 

[Korpse]

Harvey Pinard

Montreal truly is such a small hockey bubble.