Shanahan's biggest gaffe shows he's out of touch: revisiting the "Discounts" quote

[acrobaticgoalie]

Boston says Hi.

And you are being traded.

Pasta and Marchand both signed their contracts before they broke out. I highly doubt they get a discount on their next contracts.

They just signed their stud D man to 9.5M which seems to be the going rate for a 1D around the league.

 

[Antropovsky]

Yep with Marner on his wing and what is the genius move from management staff? Take Mitch off that wing and place him on Matthews wing cause maybe Matthews was grumbling a bit about not getting enough good set ups from Willie as were the fan base spurred on by the media.

The lunatics(media, players and fanbase) are running the the Maple Leafs asylum.
Until that stops this is what we'll always get, and that is, this never ending loop of a LeaFland fever dreams.

Haha things are going bad so you start quoting 3 month old posts. The problem is not Tavares.... its the foundation of culture of team team before the individual that dubas dismantled in very short order . Also I have said it from the beginning.... Tavares was wrong choice for captain..... you went three months back why not go a few more and get my whole perspective?

I think Marner should be traded first because he has taken the individualism the furthest and I have never thought he was worth 11 million. At least Tavares is a professional and not pompous.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Pasta and Marchand both signed their contracts before they broke out. I highly doubt they get a discount on their next contracts.

They just signed their stud D man to 9.5M which seems to be the going rate for a 1D around the league.

Pastrnak's final elc was pacing for 37 goals/78 points. If your excuse is "But only that high for one year", then may I ask why Marner was paid as a 90 point player being that he only did it one year?

 

[Antropovsky]

We needed D.
Not complicated

We needed to not overpay on Nylander 1 million and Marner 2-3 million.

 

[Confucius]

Haha.

I remember that.

Slow footed Tavares doesn't seem to be a Dubas guy. Wonder why he wanted him ? He didn't look at his spreadsheet long enough.

he scored 47 goals his 1st season here. poop happens

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Pastrnak's final elc was pacing for 37 goals/78 points. If your excuse is "But only that high for one year", then may I ask why Marner was paid as a 90 point player being that he only did it one year?

76pts* . Pasta paced for 41 pts the year prior and 48 in his rookie year. Marner had 61 as a rookie and 69 the following year. Your point is taken but I would say Marner had a more proven track record as an emerging star wouldn't you?

94 pts is still a lot more pts than 76 and is among the top of the league. people saying "well why can't we sign our players to team friendly deals like Pasta, Marchand and Mackinnon" is either disingenuous or they aren't looking at what their point totals were at the time of signing. Those players are outplaying their contracts after signing them. Marner was one of the top pt producers at the time of signing while Pasta became one after signing. It makes it a little harder for you to negotiate with an agent when the client has the numbers to back it up. Where as Nylander tried to ask for 8.5 and didn't have the numbers for that kind of ask.

To be clear, I said Marner should be paid 9.5 at the time. I thought that would have been fair for both sides.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Who knows but I am sure Shanny was p*ssed to have gotten found out especially by a Toronto Star reporter

A lot of people were saying that the scene where he trades for Foligno seemed like Shanny was annoyed to a certain extent. There definitively were no high fives going around afterwards that they got their prized player. Maybe Shanny thought it was an over pay and a stupid thing to do...who knows...but I think Shanny knows if Dubas messes this season up...Shanny is going to the wood shed along with the rest of them.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Nobody and I mean anybody who plays pro sports cares about anybody other than themselves. You don't believe me?

Just check out any contract negotiation other than ELC's. The player wants absolutely the most they can get and f*** the rest, because they are not going to leave one measly buck on the table. You can blame the agent/GM or greed it just doesn't matter. Players cannot for the most part see past their own noses.

Everytime I hear a star player saying that they took a discount to stay somewhere, while there may be some truth to it, all it usually amounts to is a minimum contract that doesn't change a thing.

Now let's just say Willie said OK I'll take 5m per, at the time it could have been considered a 1 to 1.5 discount, all that would have meant is that the next guy would've wanted more. Anybody remember Paul Kariya taking the big discount and what happened next?

After seeing what the Wonder Twins asked for and received from Dubas it's no wonder he held out. He knew they were going to ask for the moon and get it...he would have been a chump for taking a really reasonable deal.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Not only did they get Pastrnak to take less than Nylander, they made him feel it was pretty damn good.


"If you (told) me when I was 15 years old that I was going to be playing for $6 million a year when I was 22, I don't think (I'd have believed it)," said Pastrnak. "It's a dream come true for me. I'm happy with what I'm getting.

I can assure you that if Marchand and Bergeron were making over $10m he would not sign for what he did. That's why the guy at the top sets the table for everyone else. When we signed JT (a good player but no superstar) for $11m...we had to know the kids were going to ask for the moon...

 

[HamiltonNHL]

how does shanascam keep his job and skate scott free?
7 years, 3 gm's, 4 coaches - are we gonna make it 4 gm's and 5 coaches?
is the the plan we all look to? the SHANAPLAN?
until the head of the snake is cut off the other shuffling is smoke and mirrors .. not a defence of anyone in the org, just a comment that the easy move is not a solution ... it is a bandaid ...
bandaids are not required, major surgery is

He’s done if the Leafs don’t make the playoffs this year

 

[freshwind]

He’s done if the Leafs don’t make the playoffs this year

my fear it is a lost cause and how much damage does this group do before they are canned?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

76pts* . Pasta paced for 41 pts the year prior and 48 in his rookie year. Marner had 61 as a rookie and 69 the following year. Your point is taken but I would say Marner had a more proven track record as an emerging star wouldn't you?

94 pts is still a lot more pts than 76 and is among the top of the league. people saying "well why can't we sign our players to team friendly deals like Pasta, Marchand and Mackinnon" is either disingenuous or they aren't looking at what their point totals were at the time of signing. Those players are outplaying their contracts after signing them. Marner was one of the top pt producers at the time of signing while Pasta became one after signing. It makes it a little harder for you to negotiate with an agent when the client has the numbers to back it up. Where as Nylander tried to ask for 8.5 and didn't have the numbers for that kind of ask.

To be clear, I said Marner should be paid 9.5 at the time. I thought that would have been fair for both sides.

Regardless of all the spin, Pastrnak was NOT paid as a 37 goal/76 point player, and the reason is that he only did it once. But Marner WAS paid like a 90 point player, even though he only did it once. Rantanen wasn't, and he had TWO years at his elite level. All the rules change for the f***ing leaf players.

The mental gymnastics trying to rationalize these players is exhausting.

Can you imagine... can you IMAGINE... if a leaf player paced for 37 goals/76 points their final elc year... and hfboards was using a (lol) 20 goal 60 point career high year player as his direct comparable. No chance in hell that would happen.

And you say you're trying to be "fair". But you're 20% trying to be fair, and 80% trying to defend these horrible leaf contracts. The entire league universally consider them outrageous overpayments.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

The entire league universally consider them outrageous overpayments.

Don't forget the huge bonuses

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Don't forget the huge bonuses

Yep, Pastrnak barely got them comparatively. Also, Pastrnak gave up 1 more ufa year.

All these contracts were disgraceful.

There's a new narrative that "Nylander is worth his contract"... but that's not what good gm's do. They don't overpay you in the hopes you get better and "earn" it. Nope. The good gm's pay you ONLY on what you've proven thus far (Pasrnak, Mackinnon, etc.) and if you get better, that's icing on the cake.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

There's a new narrative that "Nylander is worth his contract"

MLSE propaganda and fans wanting their team to be doing well, despite the obvious.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Regardless of all the spin, Pastrnak was NOT paid as a 37 goal/76 point player, and the reason is that he only did it once. But Marner WAS paid like a 90 point player, even though he only did it once. Rantanen wasn't, and he had TWO years at his elite level. All the rules change for the f***ing leaf players.

The mental gymnastics trying to rationalize these players is exhausting.

Can you imagine... can you IMAGINE... if a leaf player paced for 37 goals/76 points their final elc year... and hfboards was using a (lol) 20 goal 60 point career high year player as his direct comparable. No chance in hell that would happen.

And you say you're trying to be "fair". But you're 20% trying to be fair, and 80% trying to defend these horrible leaf contracts. The entire league universally consider them outrageous overpayments.

You asked me why I thought he should get paid as a 90 pt player, when Pasta didn't get paid as a 70 pt player. I tried to point out that over the course of his ELC he was a little more accomplished than Pasta. I didnt think at the time he was worth what he got and i thought it was ridiculous that he was trying to use Matthews as his comparable. I hought 9.5 was appropriate and 10.893 was an overpay. ive soured on Marner since his negotiations and i sour on him more and more with his play lacking and his attitude coming out more and more. Having said that, if I see a comment I think is wrong or lacking context, I'll try and defend it.

Rantanen was paid appropriately, Aho was underpaid and Pasta was probably underpaid by 500k to 1M at the time. He is far exceeding his contract now. Same with Marchand. Thats why I said to the other poster that said a team like Boston always gets their guys to good contracts is wrong since their players are producing more after the fact but then you look at McAvoy who got paid 9.5 because that's what the Market dictated for a 1D. I would not consider that contract as a steal. They likely aren't getting Marchand and Pasta to sign that far under their value again. Same with Colorado with Mack. It pisses me off as well that our guys didn't give up anything like they said they would.

I respect that you had a good post and had a very fair argument. I love debating hockey.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Pasta scores goals.

He's way more valuable than Marner

 

[HamiltonNHL]

reissued

 

[Le Cobra]

The Shanaplan is dead

 

[mcleex]

The Shanaplan is and always has been a Shanasham

 

[TheRumble]

Yep, Pastrnak barely got them comparatively. Also, Pastrnak gave up 1 more ufa year.

All these contracts were disgraceful.

There's a new narrative that "Nylander is worth his contract"... but that's not what good gm's do. They don't overpay you in the hopes you get better and "earn" it. Nope. The good gm's pay you ONLY on what you've proven thus far (Pasrnak, Mackinnon, etc.) and if you get better, that's icing on the cake.

Yeah except GMs do it all the time:

Clayton Keller in Arizona got a $7x8 million dollar deal coming off a year where he scored 47 points in 82 games. He's now a point per game player.

Jack Hughes in New Jersey got an $8x8 deal coming off years of 21 and 36 points. He's now a point per game player.

Nick Suzuki got an $7.8x8 deal coming off a 46 point (in 56 games) campaign. He was one of the few bright spots on the Habs this year.

Mackinnon signed a $6.3x7 deal coming off a 52 point campaign. It took him until Year 2 of that deal to become Nathan Mackinnon we see today.

Thomas Chabot got an $8x8 deal coming off a season where he played 63 games and scored 25 points.

There's three routes you can take with RFA deals:

1) Extend early and hopes the players overperform the contracts in future years. This is what the aforementioned GMs did (you're allowed to negotiate an extension 1 year before contract expires). When it comes to young players, it's almost always preferable to extend early and bet on potential. A player is almost always going to be worse in Year 2 than they are in Year 3 so overpaying for Year 2 production is far better than overpaying for Year 3 production because the biggest strides in improvement happen in the first five or so years of a player's career. A team that has done a great job of doing this is Nashville with their defensive corps.

2) Wait until their contract year. This is honestly a big mistake that Dubas made. It almost never turns out well for the team to wait until a young player's contract year to negotiate. Some will refuse to negotiate - Matthews and McDavid are two examples of that, but most players will want to lock up money as early as possible. Marner was a guy Dubas could have extended early had he been willing to overpay a bit for Year 2 versions of him

3) Bridge for cheap. This was Tampa's strategy with guys like Point. It can backfire on you though since it gives a player that much more time to increase his market value. The PK Subban situation is probably the best example of this: Subban wanted a long term deal, Bergevin gave him a bridge. Subban won a Norris Trophy and increased his market value by the time the bridge was done.

 

[sxvnert]

The threat only works if you're willing to have players sit out for an entire season or more. The second Dubas caved on Nylander the game was over.

 

[Antropovsky]

The threat only works if you're willing to have players sit out for an entire season or more. The second Dubas caved on Nylander the game was over.

Caved on Marner early too for a price that would've gotten him 4 first round picks and potentially lost Marner 2 million in endorsements deals. Fox and Makar deals prove that Marner entered into a bracket that nobody thought was reasonable. That 2 extra million he was paid could've helped our team get through some playoff rounds this year or last year.... which is why I could not care any less for his watery eyes and his "getting sick of this feeling" quote.... you are part of the reason this team is failing every single year. You squeezed out every penny, you could. Im scared to think of what his demands started at. Meanwhile other leaders like Mackinnon have came out and said they will take less to continue to have a competitive team.

 

[BayStBullies]

Caved on Marner early too for a price that would've gotten him 4 first round picks and potentially lost Marner 2 million in endorsements deals. Fox and Makar deals prove that Marner entered into a bracket that nobody thought was reasonable. That 2 extra million he was paid could've helped our team get through some playoff rounds this year or last year.... which is why I could not care any less for his watery eyes and his "getting sick of this feeling" quote.... you are part of the reason this team is failing every single year. You squeezed out every penny, you could. Im scared to think of what his demands started at. Meanwhile other leaders like Mackinnon have came out and said they will take less to continue to have a competitive team.

I guess let's ignore the 10% tax difference between Colorado and Toronto? The salary cap is not the same for each team.

 

[Blaylock38]

It's Not Shanny's quote that did us in, it was the idea of resigning an extension and being coached by Babcock for the entirety of it.