Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[capfit9]

Hi, I disagree with your first assertion.

Shanahan, Dubas, and Keefe did their jobs -- pretty well, I think -- but they do not play on the ice and they cannot be entirely responsible for events that happened entirely on the ice.

I wrote a short piece on this if you're interested in reading my brief analysis but the summary is this: the Leafs are well-built, they need slight tweaks and to optimize.

then on what basis are you saying they did their job well if they can’t play the game ? BTW, they might not play the game on the ice but they are responsible for putting the players on the ice who play the game and hiring the coach to manage them.

 

[ReHabs]

then on what basis are you saying they did their job well if they can’t play the game ? BTW, they might not play the game on the ice but they are responsible for putting the players on the ice who play the game and hiring the coach to manage them.

By and large they assembled a very strong core that has been together for a long time. They’ve done the hardest part well. For that they must get credit.

 

[ACC1224]

By and large they assembled a very strong core that has been together for a long time. They’ve done the hardest part well. For that they must get credit.

The 'hardest part' is winning and for that they need to be accountable.

 

[ReHabs]

The 'hardest part' is winning and for that they need to be accountable.

Be serious for a moment and define exactly what you think they could have done better. I think you’ll see they made all the right moves, in general, to put together an exciting and fast team. The fact they cannot pass the first round must be held against them but it isn’t the whole picture.

 

[Nylanderthal]

But 8 teams make it past the the first round.

Who cares? Are we after cups, or second round banners? Nobody cares about squeezing by their first round opponent and then getting worked. Would you feel any different if this team had taken Florida’s path? They got smoked by Tampa, wasn’t even close.
The leafs have pushed this generations greatest team as far as it’s been pushed in three post seasons. No one’s celebrating that or happy about it, but context is important when evaluating reasons why you came up short on the ultimate goal.

 

[Stephen]

Man, that is a terrible take and it’s more like 95% of the fans see this as a very good collection of players and are disappointed when they don’t live up to expectations.
Why the other 5% don’t think they’re good enough to win is the real head scratcher.

Yeah I think we all see the potential but feels frustrating that the next round of upgrades and finishing touches haven’t happened. For me, I want to put a more conventional core behind the unique talent of the core. Not play around with random recipes the management staff are taste testing.

 

[Stephen]

They are undoubtedly a very good collection of players AND not good enough to win a playoff round based on the only evidence we have.

I don't think it's understood how fleeting this window of opportunity actually can be. And it has been wasted as far as I'm concerned. It was wasted in 2017 when the team was newly on the upswing with a golden playoff opportunity with ELC young superstars and good serviceable vets. This has been a long window of opportunity already. It may not last more than 2 more seasons. There are no guarantees this continues. There are plenty of NHL teams who carry Hall of Fame quality star forwards who struggle to qualify for the playoffs year in year out. The absence of urgency is truly maddening.

I agree. A lot of time has been wasted and the management team’s “faith” in the core needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It’s not that confidence in the group is wrong, because taking multiple cracks at it is the right way to approach it. But for me, it’s that the inevitability of success is a bit unsettling. They don’t seem to be in a rush. The idea that you can eventually win one round and that spurs on a lengthy run? Maybe. But what if you turn into a team that gets stuck in the second round or third round? Success is not inevitable.

 

[ACC1224]

Be serious for a moment and define exactly what you think they could have done better. I think you’ll see they made all the right moves, in general, to put together an exciting and fast team. The fact they cannot pass the first round must be held against them but it isn’t the whole picture.

Teams that make 'all the right moves' find success. I agree that Dubas has built a pretty good team, not a Championship team yet but one that should be able to win a round or two. Keefe is the problem, IMO.

 

[Stephen]

Be serious for a moment and define exactly what you think they could have done better. I think you’ll see they made all the right moves, in general, to put together an exciting and fast team. The fact they cannot pass the first round must be held against them but it isn’t the whole picture.

The problem is the details and the goal shouldn’t be to put together an exciting and fast team. That bar is very low and it was already mission accomplished in 2016-17.

I’m just a fan observing but I find this management team really struggles with a lot of fairly conventional hockey team building concepts and playoff details.

When they need playoff experience, they get old players without checking their playoff resumes. When they are fighting playoff Game 7 demons they casually play the Tampa series like they want a Game 7. They don’t know how to manage an attrition game. They don’t know where to prioritize size. They draft guys they struggle to promote later because they’re too smart to draft for size or specific roles. They barely lose a playoff series with a $1.65 million goalie duelling the goalie of the era so their response is to go Moneyball again and get cheaper in net.

 

[capfit9]

Who cares? Are we after cups, or second round banners? Nobody cares about squeezing by their first round opponent and then getting worked. Would you feel any different if this team had taken Florida’s path? They got smoked by Tampa, wasn’t even close.
The leafs have pushed this generations greatest team as far as it’s been pushed in three post seasons. No one’s celebrating that or happy about it, but context is important when evaluating reasons why you came up short on the ultimate goal.

I think it's sad that we now have to soothe ourselves from this type of thought process as a result of continued disappointment year after year.

 

[rocketman588]

Only 1 team per season hangs a banner of any importance. Does that make every other organization an abject failure?
God, you trolls love to take an out of context phrase or comment and absolutely run it into the ground. It’s like an over used SNL bit by now (w’sup baby yoda). He literally followed up the comment with but none of that matters as were in the results business.
Jesus this place is ridiculous

8 teams make it past the first round every year. We have been unable to do that.

Winning is hard so let's just continue to give free passes is possibly the Dumbest excuse I've heard

 

[Gabriel426]

Hi, I disagree with your first assertion.

Shanahan, Dubas, and Keefe did their jobs -- pretty well, I think -- but they do not play on the ice and they cannot be entirely responsible for events that happened entirely on the ice.

I wrote a short piece on this if you're interested in reading my brief analysis but the summary is this: the Leafs are well-built, they need slight tweaks and to optimize.

Keefe didn’t get the players to perform.
Dubas’s vision of the team he built might not be as good as their records but Indicated since the team had not done anything in the playoffs.

 

[rocketman588]

Who cares? Are we after cups, or second round banners? Nobody cares about squeezing by their first round opponent and then getting worked. Would you feel any different if this team had taken Florida’s path? They got smoked by Tampa, wasn’t even close.
The leafs have pushed this generations greatest team as far as it’s been pushed in three post seasons. No one’s celebrating that or happy about it, but context is important when evaluating reasons why you came up short on the ultimate goal.

So why do you still want dubas to be employed then

For you winning the cup is a all or nothing proposition so he's done nothing. So why do you want to keep him around?

Additionally you must consider regular season success to be all or nothing with this thought process. We have won 0 presidents cups so again he has accomplished nothing. Why are you applauding his job despite him doing 0

 

[Nylanderthal]

I think it's sad that we now have to soothe ourselves from this type of thought process as a result of continued disappointment year after year.

Who’s soothing themselves? That’s reality, this is a discussion board about how we all view the team. Some of us don’t see it being as far off as others.
None of that is “soothing” or “copium” some of us just have a higher capacity for nuance than others here

 

[rocketman588]

By and large they assembled a very strong core that has been together for a long time. They’ve done the hardest part well. For that they must get credit.

They didn't assemble anything they got gifted the core and over paid them

 

[Racer88]

By and large they assembled a very strong core that has been together for a long time. They’ve done the hardest part well. For that they must get credit.

They only get credit if the team has some success otherwise we can really call them a strong core. They may be skilled on an individual basis but together that have achieved nothing of any note yet

 

[rocketman588]

Who’s soothing themselves? That’s reality, this is a discussion board about how we all view the team. Some of us don’t see it being as far off as others.
None of that is “soothing” or “copium” some of us just have a higher capacity for nuance than others here

It does not take any nuance to understand your position. It's quite a simple one.

Anything dubas does I like so I will do anything to defend what he does.

By your cup or bust position he should be even more of a failure then he is for the rest of us

 

[HockeyVirus]

Wow, I can tell some of you have never tasted the sweet nectar of winning because if you had you would not be all warm and fuzzy about taking the defending champs to 7 games.
two things to remember about racing, hockey and life in general.
winners get paid and winners get laid

On the other hand, some of you never tasted being a bottom feeder who couldn't sniff the playoffs. This is not a team you blow up. It's a team you go all in on.

 

[ACC1224]

On the other hand, some of you never tasted being a bottom feeder who couldn't sniff the playoffs. This is not a team you blow up. It's a team you go all in on.

They were a bottom feeder not long ago, that's how they got Matthews and Marner .

 

[HockeyVirus]

They were a bottom feeder not long ago, that's how they got Matthews and Marner .

I know. I am saying most people complaining weren't fans then. They don't know what it's like to lose in the regular season instead of being a top 5 team and taking a Dynasty to the edge. The team is close.

 

[ACC1224]

I know. I am saying most people complaining weren't fans then. They don't know what it's like to lose in the regular season instead of being a top 5 team and taking a Dynasty to the edge. The team is close.

I guess that could be true. I've assumed most fans here are long term fans.

I believe most people think the team is close, where things differ is what's needed to put them over the top.
A few feel that nothing needs to change they are just 'unlucky' or the league is against them.
Others feel the team is too top heavy cap wise, blame Dubas.
Myself, I believe the Coach is holding them back.

 

[mikeyz]

My biggest pet peeve is when others try to tell them they’re not real fans becuase they are negative on the team. I don’t get it so all fans are just suppose to be happy with failure. They have every right to be upset and question the process.

I work in a sales job. I was so close to get that account doesn’t get the job done. When I first started that’s fine I was learning but if it continued my company would start asking questions on why I can’t close a deal. At some point if you keep failing you need to start looking at yourself and ask what am I doing wrong. So fans have every right to he upset and they shouldn’t be questioned if they are actual fans.

They are just mad because we’ve been right about our opinions of this team ALOT more often then they have.

 

[Lightsol]

Man, that is a terrible take and it’s more like 95% of the fans see this as a very good collection of players and are disappointed when they don’t live up to expectations.
Why the other 5% don’t think they’re good enough to win is the real head scratcher.

You really think the majority of posters here see this team as very good when they only show up to complain about EVERYTHING? Half the posters here post the same shit over and over again, only turning up after losses to berate everybody. They're like my old man; constantly angry to the point where you wonder why they even keep watching, because they're killing themselves with stress.

 

[HockeyVirus]

I guess that could be true. I've assumed most fans here are long term fans.

I believe most people think the team is close, where things differ is what's needed to put them over the top.
A few feel that nothing needs to change they are just 'unlucky' or the league is against them.
Others feel the team is too top heavy cap wise, blame Dubas.
Myself, I believe the Coach is holding them back.

That's fair, and I'm not really talking about fans having different opinions. I am talking about the folks saying they are all losers and blow it up, fire everyone, etc. They don't realize just how good we have it right now compared to the 50 years before that. Outside of brief stints of having a shot, the Leafs were losers for 50 years who never sniffed being as good as this team is.

My take is that Dubas tried to go with the Ducks / Sharks model, contend for a decade + sign a core + rotate in ELC players and keep depth flowing. Problem is that was doomed from his first year with having to move 13th OA which was Jarvis, who we could really use right now to get out of Marleau. Then we had Amirov get brain cancer, lost another first for Foligno, etc etc.

The time isn't there for the pipeline to restock to sustain that model. IMO, we have not yet truly gone all in. We've added some nice pieces, but the most we went all in was a first for Foligno, a 3rd for a depth goalie, and a late pick for a depth D.

I think, similar to the Blue Jackets, we need to commit and say F it. Move our firsts the next 2 seasons, move Robertson, Niemela, nearly whoever we need to to bring in elite talent. We have 2 years left of our entire rebuild never even giving us a playoff series win before they walk.

Add a starting goalie you think is elite, add a pending UFA who is elite just to play down our lineup and give scoring depth. Get the top UFA at the deadline for whatever position we identify as a need.

We can move Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and whoever to kickstart a rebuild and be back to a playoff team within 3-4 years if we fail again. But until then, this is the best chance we've had in decades. Don't make us wonder what if. Go all in and tell the core this is it. If we fail we're rebuilding.

 

[Lightsol]

My biggest pet peeve is when others try to tell them they’re not real fans becuase they are negative on the team. I don’t get it so all fans are just suppose to be happy with failure. They have every right to be upset and question the process.

I work in a sales job. I was so close to get that account doesn’t get the job done. When I first started that’s fine I was learning but if it continued my company would start asking questions on why I can’t close a deal. At some point if you keep failing you need to start looking at yourself and ask what am I doing wrong. So fans have every right to he upset and they shouldn’t be questioned if they are actual fans.

I'm not saying anything about their quality as fans; I'm honestly trying to understand why you follow a team if your experience with the team is so consistently negative?