Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

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Lacking experience is a potential negative.
GMs should be evaluated by what they do, not by their prior experience, and all of the GMs being discussed had experience when they were hired anyway.
Yeah, knowing what it takes to win is irrelevant when trying to assemble a winning team....
Except that's not a requirement for "knowing what it takes to win".
I guess there's a reason that you get surprised by the results every play-offs and others don't.
This is a weird comment, considering you had the Leafs winning in 6.
7.5 x 8 would have been fair.
6.96m x 6 was fair.
 
Tavares filled an organizational weakness, and was a big add to our team at a reasonable UFA cost for no expended assets.
You keep repeating this statement as if it's fact. Why? We had AM and Kadri as a 1-2...how is that a weakness? If we had any weaknesses it would have been at 3rd and 4th line center...not 2nd line. I am pretty sure a 3rd or 4th liner doesn't command huge dollars. Kadri had just been suspended for the 1st time...so there was no reason to believe he would lose his mind again the following playoffs. He was just fine as a number 2. JT was a luxury we didn't need at the time and it screwed up our timeline by accelerating it.
 
You keep repeating this statement as if it's fact. Why? We had AM and Kadri as a 1-2...how is that a weakness?
Our entire organizational depth at center was essentially Matthews, Kadri, and Gauthier, with nothing on the horizon, and Kadri had already shown himself to be unreliable. Tavares was a high-end player who solidified our center position, gave us a deadly one-two punch, and helped counter the offensive losses we had that offseason.
it screwed up our timeline by accelerating it.
Our clock had already started. Our rebuild was long done. Getting Tavares turned what would have been wasted years into a legitimate chance to win.
 
Sucks that the Leafs were the only team impacted by the pandemic.

Here's a thought.....if the cap had gone up as projected, the players that signed contracts during the covid seasons would have looked for more money, and other teams would have also had more money to compete for UFA's just like the Leafs.
That part of the cap going up seems to be lost on a lot of people. Players look for % of the cap in negotiations...if cap go up...% of the pie make dollar go up. It's not like you're going to be getting Kampf and Bunting for the deals you signed if the cap was 91M....I really don't understand the fact that they can't admit it's true.

The reason players have tempered their asking prices is because of the flat cap which pretty much negates the whole idea that we would be free of cap hell had the increases been steady as predicted by the league. If the cap was 91M we would be paying more for every single guy we signed since 2019....it's just too obvious.

Our entire organizational depth at center was essentially Matthews, Kadri, and Gauthier, with nothing on the horizon, and Kadri had already shown himself to be unreliable. Tavares was a high-end player who solidified our center position, gave us a deadly one-two punch, and helped counter the offensive losses we had that offseason.
So we needed a 4th line center (to be rid of Gauthier) and a 3rd since Bozie was leaving. So instead of getting a guy like Kampf...we got JT for $11M....gotcha.
 
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Our entire organizational depth at center was essentially Matthews, Kadri, and Gauthier, with nothing on the horizon, and Kadri had already shown himself to be unreliable. Tavares was a high-end player who solidified our center position, gave us a deadly one-two punch, and helped counter the offensive losses we had that offseason.

Our clock had already started. Our rebuild was long done. Getting Tavares turned what would have been wasted years into a legitimate chance to win.
I wouldn’t consider the rebuild long done when making the playoffs wasn't an almost guaranteed result. Let’s face it, the defence was hideous and the goaltending was, Freddy Andersen.
 
GMs should be evaluated by what they do, not by their prior experience, and all of the GMs being discussed had experience when they were hired anyway.

We don't disagree. Dubas' body of work is what he should be evaluated on. He's done some good things, but has ultimately failed to build a winning team. He should probably get a solid B, not the A++++++ extra credit you seem to think he should get.

Except that's not a requirement for "knowing what it takes to win".

Being tall and athletic isn't a requirement for playing in the NBA either.

This is a weird comment, considering you had the Leafs winning in 6.

I'm a fan of this team ad hoped they would win in 6, but I also saw glaring flaws that could be exploited.

6.96m x 6 was fair.

If you falsely believe David Pastrnak was a fair comparable, then I can see how you'd think it's fair.

Our entire organizational depth at center was essentially Matthews, Kadri, and Gauthier, with nothing on the horizon, and Kadri had already shown himself to be unreliable. Tavares was a high-end player who solidified our center position, gave us a deadly one-two punch, and helped counter the offensive losses we had that offseason.

We turned Mattehws and Kadri into Matthews and Tavares and 6.5 million less cap space to address the other issues.
 
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If cap hell is what we have, I'll take it.

We can start the year without signing any of our RFAs and still have 5.5 million in cap space.

Bunting - Matthews - Marner
Robertson - Tavares - Holmberg
Kerfoot - Kampf - Nylander
Clifford - Abruzzese - Anderson

Rielly - Brodie
Muzzin - Holl
Gio - Niemela

Mrazek
Kallgren

That's only a 77 million dollar roster and would make the playoffs.

I really think Kerfoot will be out the door after July first, so that will be 9 million to work with.

That is enough to upgrade in goal (Mrazek is likely going out if we bring someone in), resign Liljegren and Sandin (I think either Holl or Sandin are gone), resign Engvall, resign Kasemand sign at least one depth piece.
What a horrendous lineup
 
My gut feeling is even if they lose in round one again next year, there will be no changes to management. Keefe will be let go though. Shanahan is in love with Dubas and Tanenbaum seems to have faith in them.
Unfortunately I agree with you.
 
We don't disagree. Dubas' body of work is what he should be evaluated on. He's done some good things, but has ultimately failed to build a winning team. He should probably get a solid B, not the A++++++ extra credit you seem to think he should get.



Being tall and athletic isn't a requirement for playing in the NBA either.



I'm a fan of this team ad hoped they would win in 6, but I also saw glaring flaws that could be exploited.



If you falsely believe David Pastrnak was a fair comparable, then I can see how you'd think it's fair.



We turned Mattehws and Kadri into Matthews and Tavares and 6.5 million less cap space to address the other issues.
Will be interesting to see what will be left from the Kadri fleecing once we dump Kerfoot.
 
If cap hell is what we have, I'll take it.

We can start the year without signing any of our RFAs and still have 5.5 million in cap space.

Bunting - Matthews - Marner
Robertson - Tavares - Holmberg
Kerfoot - Kampf - Nylander
Clifford - Abruzzese - Anderson

Rielly - Brodie
Muzzin - Holl
Gio - Niemela

Mrazek
Kallgren

That's only a 77 million dollar roster and would make the playoffs.

I really think Kerfoot will be out the door after July first, so that will be 9 million to work with.

That is enough to upgrade in goal (Mrazek is likely going out if we bring someone in), resign Liljegren and Sandin (I think either Holl or Sandin are gone), resign Engvall, resign Kasemand sign at least one depth piece.

Is this not concerning to you that THIS is the roster with 5 mil left?

That's 1 proven goalie that has been hurt for two years.

5 dudes who are virtual. rookies including two on the second line. 2 of whom have barely played on north American ice yet we still only have 5 mil left.

If we sign our RFAs at an ambitious one mil a piece ( probably won't happen) we have 1 mil left with only 1 unproven rookie on the roster and even then it's not a great looking lineup.

You get rid of Holl and kerfoot you have to plug two holes for 5 mil.

Mrazek only saves you 3.8 and it's gonna cost to replace him.

Maybe that lineup makes the playoffs but I would doubt it that's not the goal anyways.

No way in hell does that roster win a cup unfortunately.

Wily is up in two years we can't afford to resign him marner and AM if we're still confident in the rookies why not use him to get a 5 mil a yearish goalie and try to replace his him in the lineup with the 10 milish you'd get with Holl/kerfoot/mrazek and the net from willy out the door?


That's the creative solution. You solve your goalie issue and free up even more cap space with a willy for cost controlled goalie move.

It's the one that should be done imo
 
Will be interesting to see what will be left from the Kadri fleecing once we dump Kerfoot.
Fleecing is interesting choice of words. We got one more season of Kerfoot instead of Kadri with 1million less. Kerftoot is more suitable for the role we had for him in the team. Kadri wasn't tremendous as our 3rd line C and many of us were concerned that we lose value by keeping him. Also Barrie with 50% contract was defender for us back then when we needed those. Would have liked to trade Kadri for other dman, but don't think there was too much market for him to be able to do that.

Actually we are now gaining value back, since Kadri is UFA and we still got Kerfoot, who we can trade away and gather assets back. We got value from Barrie and Kerfoot, still accruing that from Kerfoot and Kadri is gone.

It would be debatable if Kadri was anything special before this season, but basicly cost two playoff series for Ava, so it wasn't slam dunk for them from start to finish. They get the value they paid for right now at the last moment, which is nice. If they win the Cup that trade was great for them, if they don't it was good for them.

It has been mixed bag for us, but Kertoof was one of our best playoff performers 2021 and you don't celebrate his failures, so I assume that you calculate success of that trade for Avs by result of the cup finals.
 
Sucks that the Leafs were the only team impacted by the pandemic.

Here's a thought.....if the cap had gone up as projected, the players that signed contracts during the covid seasons would have looked for more money, and other teams would have also had more money to compete for UFA's just like the Leafs.

Agreed, although it didn’t just affect the leafs. It affected Tampa, they had to get rid of a whole line. It’s affecting Calgary right now. And other teams as well. No one is pushing the narrative that it only affected the leafs
 
We don't disagree. Dubas' body of work is what he should be evaluated on.
Glad we can agree that it's ridiculous to attack a GM for their prior experience. When somebody does that, it really just demonstrates a lack of legitimate argument.
He should probably get a solid B, not the A++++++ extra credit you seem to think he should get.
I don't think he should get an "A++++++ extra credit". Once again putting words in people's mouths.
Being tall and athletic isn't a requirement for playing in the NBA either.
Not sure why you're talking about basketball all of a sudden, but being athletic is kind of a requirement to play in the highest professional basketball league.
I'm a fan of this team ad hoped they would win in 6
So maybe don't go around throwing stones when you were more wrong than the person you're throwing at.
If you falsely believe David Pastrnak was a fair comparable, then I can see how you'd think it's fair.
If you falsely believe David Pastrnak wasn't a comparable, then I still can't see how you think it's not fair.
We turned Mattehws and Kadri into Matthews and Tavares
Would be quite the upgrade itself, though we actually still had Kadri with Matthews and Tavares.
 
I wouldn’t consider the rebuild long done when making the playoffs wasn't an almost guaranteed result.
We had already moved into a phase where we sent out high picks for a goalie, signed UFAs to make us more competitive, acquired rentals, used our players as own rentals, etc. Without Tavares, we would have taken a step back instead of forward, but whether or not we were guaranteed to make the playoffs, we were guaranteed to finish high enough that rebuilding was no longer a viable strategy.
 
Is this not concerning to you that THIS is the roster with 5 mil left?

That's 1 proven goalie that has been hurt for two years.

5 dudes who are virtual. rookies including two on the second line. 2 of whom have barely played on north American ice yet we still only have 5 mil left.

If we sign our RFAs at an ambitious one mil a piece ( probably won't happen) we have 1 mil left with only 1 unproven rookie on the roster and even then it's not a great looking lineup.

You get rid of Holl and kerfoot you have to plug two holes for 5 mil.

Mrazek only saves you 3.8 and it's gonna cost to replace him.

Maybe that lineup makes the playoffs but I would doubt it that's not the goal anyways.

No way in hell does that roster win a cup unfortunately.

Wily is up in two years we can't afford to resign him marner and AM if we're still confident in the rookies why not use him to get a 5 mil a yearish goalie and try to replace his him in the lineup with the 10 milish you'd get with Holl/kerfoot/mrazek and the net from willy out the door?


That's the creative solution. You solve your goalie issue and free up even more cap space with a willy for cost controlled goalie move.

It's the one that should be done imo

If we sign our RFAs our lineup looks the same as last year minus Mikeyev and Campbell, our only issue is goaltending at that point, also if you sign them all at 1.5mil, we have 1.9 left with a 21 man roster.

Bunting - Matthews - Marner
Robertson - Tavares - Kase
Kerfoot - Holmberg - Nylander
Clifford - Kampf - Engvall

Rielly - Liljegren
Muzzin - Brodie
Gio - Holl
Sandin

Mrazek
Woll

People are talking about Gibson being a target (I think he's bad now, so don't want him), I think Sandin is on the move anyway (no room), and something around Sandin + Mrazek + futures for Gibson works cap-wise.

What you're saying about rookies, we need to start trying them out, we have like 5 or 6 rookies who should be looked at as an option for the team.

If we are moving Nylander, I wouldn't want it for a goalie, there are probably only a handful of goalies worth him.
 
I don't think he should get an "A++++++ extra credit". Once again putting words in people's mouths.

The guy has apparently done nothing wrong since he got here. That’s an A++++++ extra credit.

Not sure why you're talking about basketball all of a sudden, but being athletic is kind of a requirement to play in the highest professional basketball league.

It’s an analogy. You don’t need to know what it takes to win in order to build a winning team, just like you don’t need to be tall and athletic to play in the NBA… but it sure helps, and not having those things makes it damn near impossible.

So maybe don't go around throwing stones when you were more wrong than the person you're throwing at.

Who’s making up other people opinions now? I hoped they’d win. I knew they’d lose a game 7, so I picked 6 games. There’s a big difference between hope and confidence.
If you falsely believe David Pastrnak wasn't a comparable, then I still can't see how you think it's not fair.

Yes, if you know how comparables work, you understand why Nylander was overpaid. Not only did Pasternak have a much better season, but he did it in a season with significantly lower league-wide scoring. Adjust for scoring rates and Pastrnak out scores Nylander by 25%. That’s not a comparable.

Would be quite the upgrade itself, though we actually still had Kadri with Matthews and Tavares.

It soon turned into what I said. Just because it took two moves to arrive there doesn’t mean it wasn’t a bad place to go.
 
If we sign our RFAs our lineup looks the same as last year minus Mikeyev and Campbell, our only issue is goaltending at that point, also if you sign them all at 1.5mil, we have 1.9 left with a 21 man roster.

Bunting - Matthews - Marner
Robertson - Tavares - Kase
Kerfoot - Holmberg - Nylander
Clifford - Kampf - Engvall

Rielly - Liljegren
Muzzin - Brodie
Gio - Holl
Sandin

Mrazek
Woll

People are talking about Gibson being a target (I think he's bad now, so don't want him), I think Sandin is on the move anyway (no room), and something around Sandin + Mrazek + futures for Gibson works cap-wise.

What you're saying about rookies, we need to start trying them out, we have like 5 or 6 rookies who should be looked at as an option for the team.

If we are moving Nylander, I wouldn't want it for a goalie, there are probably only a handful of goalies worth him.

Wouldn't it be 1.5x4 so 6? Although I assume it's more likely 2x1.5 1@1 1@min. Holmberg still worries me but i guess you can get a guy at min

That's the reason you use him in a goalie deal because of his value. I wouldn't trade him for a Gibson more so someone like an ottenger/demko/blackwood. The unfortunate fact is we're going to have to pay up for a goalie due to mrazek being unreliable why not get a good one and also let us be more flexible
 
The guy has apparently done nothing wrong since he got here.
That may be your opinion, but it's not mine.
It’s an analogy. You don’t need to know what it takes to win in order to build a winning team, just like you don’t need to be tall and athletic to play in the NBA.
Not only is that a bad analogy, but that's not even what was being discussed. The point was that you don't need to play in the NHL to "know what it takes to win".
Who’s making up other people opinions now?
Still only you. I'm just relaying what you voted, because you attempted to weirdly throw stones about something you were more incorrect about.
Yes, if you know how comparables work, you understand why Nylander was overpaid.
Unlike many here, I do know how comparables and contract valuation works, which is why I understand that Nylander was not overpaid, and contract valuation is about more than just cherry picking one other player's raw points, incorrectly adjusted and contextualized, in exclusively their final season and calling it a day.
It soon turned into what I said.
No, you're leaving out quite a bit.
 
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