Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[Dekes For Days]

Is being able to do your job and sign two useable goalies ( something Dubas has never done).

We've never even needed to sign two goalies in a year in the first place, because we had Andersen on contract when Dubas took over, and that transitioned into Campbell, who was already signed when he was acquired in that great trade. So not sure what you mean.

Less sustainable then getting 115 points in a messed up covid schedule where half the teams don't try that also happens to be the year that the changed the rules to our direct benefit?

What are you even talking about? This was a pretty normal 82-game season, not a "covid schedule", and I'm not sure why you think teams weren't trying or what rule you think was changed for our benefit. What we did this year is not only much better, but way more sustainable than what we did and where we were at in 2017-2018.

Also Dubas is the king of riding out UFAs hilarious you're shitting on Lou for it

1. Riding out the UFAs we have rode out under Dubas relative to our cup potential is way more reasonable than what Lou rode out relative to where the team was at then. The only player that could have changed that was Rielly, but Dubas re-signed him, in advance, to a great contract.
2. I didn't attack Lou for it. That's actually one of the few understandable things Lou did. Selling off in that position would have been really abnormal for a GM to do, and it would have sent a bad message to the team and left the fans with a whole bunch of what-ifs. The point was that it was a unique benefit the 2017-2018 team had that wasn't sustainable beyond that year, and wasn't even the result of the management team in charge.

 

[Crosscrease14]

If you took the same path everyday and hit your head six days in a row would you continue to take the same path?

Time for change.

I took a lot of heat for this but I think if we're being honest it's been a shuffling of deck chairs since Tavares got here.

Some improvements on D for sure but Muzzin's decline is coming at the worst time. They really don't have anyone else like him.

I'm a big fan of the team and not anti-Dubas. I think he's made some good moves. I just don't agree with the core philosophy of half the cap + in 4 players. I don't see it being successful.

It's fine to disagree with how the team is being built.

 

[Mess]

The idea that Ovi is some kind of roadmap for Matthews’ success as a Cup winner is dubious at best. Aside from the superficial goal totals, Ovi is cited as an example of staying the course and it will pay off over the extreme long run more than any great Washington recipe. I wouldn’t build up Ovi to be this and that. Aside from 2018, the Caps still suck in the playoffs.

Leafs fans don't want to use the Mats Sundin example who spent 13 seasons in TO, as any road map example that eventually with patience will pay off.

 

[Stephen]

Leafs fans don't want to use the Mats Sundin example who spent 13 seasons in TO, as any road map example that eventually with patience will pay off.

Sundin might be a model in the way Jason Spezza is a model. That is you don’t have forever to make your mark and this Leafs core needs to play with more urgency and desperation every night in the playoffs.

2-2 going home when you could have made it 3-1 is not mission accomplished. Emptying the tank is the minimum buy in and even then it might not be good enough.

I just look back on Spezza’s early career and I dunno how those young core guys aren’t haunted by that possibility. Just think of the kind of regret you’d have knowing you played too scared when you were young, didn’t come prepared, and thought you had all the time in the world. We’re fans and we’ll always be here to cheer on the next core and whatever but these guys only have one career.

 

[ToneDog]

For those that still criticize Lou for trading picks for Boyle and Pleks, we have 3 picks this year (1,3,7) and had 3 last year (2,5,6). Yup Dubas is stocking the cupboard. When that pipeline full of Dubas picks bursts look out NHL.

 

[egd27]

You Dubas boysvalue the point total so much and don't care about the playoffs surely 100 points and a second round loss is fireable then.

Playoffs are luck so if he wins a round with a worse season he should be fired according to you

Except when is was previous management. Then the points record was unsustainable luck, and didn't matter as there was no playoff success.

 

[justashadowof]

Bringing up the phony Dubas-Lou debate is such a strawman argument tactic. If Lou were still sitting in the GM's chair at MLSE still with no playoff round wins, you think he wouldn't be facing an avalanche of criticism from all sides for what every suspect decision he made up to this point?

 

[DarkKnight]

For those that still criticize Lou for trading picks for Boyle and Pleks, we have 3 picks this year (1,3,7) and had 3 last year (2,5,6). Yup Dubas is stocking the cupboard. When that pipeline full of Dubas picks bursts look out NHL.

Someone posted a complete list of his trades, the trading of picks of late and the paltry return isn’t a good look. Also lots of talk online about the cupboard being pretty bare apart from the top obvious names. Our prospect pool will be bottom third this year and the model was supposed to be a steady influx of cheap young talent to offset the big contracts. To be fair, he did a decent job getting good value to plug holes last off season, Bunting for example, but we’ve already sacrificed a lot of the future and I guarantee it was done with more than ZERO rounds won in mind.

 

[rocketman588]

Except when is was previous management. Then the points record was unsustainable luck, and didn't matter as there was no playoff success.

Unless he wins a round with a low number of points then in that case the playoffs are the only thing that matters

 

[deprw]

You’re in a small minority of the hockey world that doesn’t accept the reality that mismanaged cap allocations has left them hoping to catch lightning.

Do you honestly believe that five years ago Dubas laid out this plan and Shanahan accepted it?

Large amount of hockey people and I usually interact with think that Toronto got hosed by covid. It doesn't help that we paid our stars, but the problem has been frozen cap. Dubas has danced around it pretty nicely.

I live in Finland and talk with other NHL enthusiasts.

I agree with one small amendment. They will be asked to resign just before Matthews walks. Still amazes me that there are so many here that actually believes Matthews stays.

Well if you think about history the most common outcome is team signing their biggest stars. Tavares has been only anomaly in cap world, so thinking that leaves for sure is pretty radical stance. You don't have much to back it up.

 

[Nineteen67]

This is year 4. They do have an NHL caliber goalie signed, and we have an entire offseason still upcoming before next year.

Lost 3 round 1 and missed the playoffs once. Yr 5 and his plan is to hope to find a goalie.
Do you like that plan?

 

[deprw]

See a lot of people wanting to compare Ovechkin to Matthews. Ovi is a leader and probably the biggest banger on his team. He'll make the sacrifice to make the play. AM is one of the most pure goal scorers to come along in a long time but that's it. He is no leader and avoids confrontation as much as possible. He played a great playoff series and was more physical than he had ever been. I doubt we will see that kind of physicality during the regular season. Matthews is no Ovechkin. Comparisons are odious.

Ovie was the big reason that team didn't win. He was full on scorer and offensive player. Wasn't going to change, once he was outclassed in Olympics he stagnated for two years and after that slowly figured it out what it meant to be effective player in playoffs in this league. There have been terrible clips him not defending at all and before he hit 30 I don't he actually knew how to play defense.

It's easy to build that narrative for him after he won, but before that he was perennial loser. Great scorer though, but not a winner. I also think winning in WHC helped him eventually to get looser as player.

 

[deprw]

Leafs fans don't want to use the Mats Sundin example who spent 13 seasons in TO, as any road map example that eventually with patience will pay off.

Well think back to Sundin, it was time of no patience. We gunned towards cup every year and basicly churner every asset to veteran players and our core never was good enough. We lacked the patience back then to really build a team.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I took a lot of heat for this but I think if we're being honest it's been a shuffling of deck chairs since Tavares got here.

Some improvements on D for sure but Muzzin's decline is coming at the worst time. They really don't have anyone else like him.

I'm a big fan of the team and not anti-Dubas. I think he's made some good moves. I just don't agree with the core philosophy of half the cap + in 4 players. I don't see it being successful.

It's fine to disagree with how the team is being built.

You and many other people it seems. It's tough to say one way or the other IMO, one one hand they had a great regular season and played so well in the playoffs against TB who are the class of the league so hard to say definitively that this can't work. On the other hand, this was the first time in a while that they didn't just fade away in game 7 and they had much easier opponents in previous years, which makes another playoff loss harder to take. IMHO, it's probably OK to spend that much cap on 4 players but the fact that they're all forwards gives me pause. And that of course fits with what I'd like to see this summer which involves Nylander moving out, and an elite goalie moving in.

 

[deprw]

Anyone that is afraid of Matthews leaving after his contract is up. You think that changing Team President, GM and coach he knows and creating year or two turmoil inside organization, which probably means some kind of roster turnover would more likely keep him here? Meaning we change the people he knows and trusts to trade away his buddies and that is strategy to keep him?

If we fail after that, it could sour out that relationship pretty badly. If his top player he believes in himself and his teammates and making drastic changes basicly tells him that team doesn't.

I'm not saying that this is reason to keep our office intact, but just something to think about.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Large amount of hockey people and I usually interact with think that Toronto got hosed by covid. It doesn't help that we paid our stars, but the problem has been frozen cap. Dubas has danced around it pretty nicely.

Yeah I think so too. It seems like for several years now, people have been saying when the season ends that there's no way we can ice a good team around the core with the cap limitations and every summer, Dubas finds a way to make it happen. I agree we got completely hosed by covid so the question is, would it have been better to adjust by moving on from one of the core guys? It's a tough question, I guess I could argue it either way.

 

[Nylanderthal]

You and many other people it seems. It's tough to say one way or the other IMO, one one hand they had a great regular season and played so well in the playoffs against TB who are the class of the league so hard to say definitively that this can't work. On the other hand, this was the first time in a while that they didn't just fade away in game 7 and they had much easier opponents in previous years, which makes another playoff loss harder to take. IMHO, it's probably OK to spend that much cap on 4 players but the fact that they're all forwards gives me pause. And that of course fits with what I'd like to see this summer which involves Nylander moving out, and an elite goalie moving in.

Three of the 8 second round teams had at least one $10m player, Tampa has three 9.5 guys, a 8.5 and 8m as well.
Pay your stars, fill in around the rest… the key is finding the right mix both at the top & bottom.

 

[tokyoite]

Look at the roster that started last season, compare it to the roster that starts next season. There's your answer, easy peasy.

I am not asking about the roster.

 

[kevsh]

We live in a hard ass division.

Yet the previous two years we faced Columbus and Montreal, still lost.
The year before we had a 3-2 lead on the Bruins, lost.
This year, we all know.

Yes, it's tough but I find it impossible to justify or rationalize when a team has 3-2, 3-1 and 3-2 series leads over the past four years, loses all three, and in the other round they didn't manage an even-strength goal in four of the five games.

When the Lightning got swept by the Blue Jackets (a better Columbus team than the Leafs face - the former had Panarin, Duchene and Bobrovsky btw) they not only brought in the right players but the existing roster bought in. According to Nylander, the Leafs are "slowly" getting there. It took Tampa one year to figure it out. The Leafs? Significantly longer than one year, and counting.

 

[Stephen]

I'm more than happy if he saves the physicality for the playoffs myself. What's your objection?


Do you think it's important to beat that 115 points? Do you actually care, or are you just trying to stir up some this (as if there isn't enough of it floating around)?

Every year is different, but I wonder what the organizational strategy will be re: winning the division and playing a Wild Card team vs another Tampa or Florida matchup.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I am not asking about the roster.

You asked (and I quote you directly) - what change?

The answer I gave you is perfectly valid but if it doesn't suit your purposes, then next time maybe ask a more specific question.

 

[Dreakmur]

Three of the 8 second round teams had at least one $10m player, Tampa has three 9.5 guys, a 8.5 and 8m as well.
Pay your stars, fill in around the rest… the key is finding the right mix both at the top & bottom.

Tampa has 3 guys at 9.5, and none of them play the same position.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Every year is different, but I wonder what the organizational strategy will be re: winning the division and playing a Wild Card team vs another Tampa or Florida matchup.

TB almost was a wild card team this season so not out of the question that the Leafs win the division, and play TB in the 1st round anyway.

 

[Trapper]

Leafs fans don't want to use the Mats Sundin example who spent 13 seasons in TO, as any road map example that eventually with patience will pay off.

You have to build the right team and it’s not always the shiny pieces you like.
For every success, there’s a group that doesn’t get it.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Tampa has 3 guys at 9.5, and none of them play the same position.

As far as being top heavy goes, I believe if you add up the cap hits for the top 5 players on both teams, TB and Toronto were pretty close last year. One of those teams is the class of the league so that would seem to indicate that being top heavy might not be such a bad thing.

However, the fact that 4 out of top 5 (and the top 4) for Toronto were all forwards whereas TB is better balanced, might be one reason why it's working out better for them than for us.