Seravalli: NHL Back to AZ Within 5yrs ?!?

[Viqsi]

Have they had the track record of attendance Ottawa has had?

Have they had the track record of on-ice performance Ottawa has had?

 

[Filthy Dangles]

 

[SpezDispenser]

Have they had the track record of on-ice performance Ottawa has had?

No, nor the attendance. So why did you even mention Ottawa?

 

[Viqsi]

No

So, basically, that market has never even gotten a chance to actually see competent hockey and thus learn to appreciate it? Thus possibly contributing to why attendance is so crap?

 

[StreetHawk]

Arizona hasn't?

Coyotes changed owners a few times. Why didn't anyone good view the Coyotes as a worthwhile investment over the past 15 years since Moyes declared bankruptcy?
Can imagine most want something turnkey, vs having to deal with the city on a new arena and have the spotlight of being a billionaire asking for taxpayer funds right off the hop before they've built up some goodwill.

 

[Gliff]

View attachment 911998

Its the 11th biggest media market in NA.
There are 4.8 million people in the Phoenix area, twice Vegas and 4 times Salt Lake City areas.

The team made the playoffs 4 times since 2002. I dont blame the fans for not being invested. Why invest when the product sucks due to the ownership sucking. Why go to a game when the experience sucks.

I get it's hard to understand in Edmonton where there is nothing to do except hockey, but large markets in America have other options. All 3 of the other major sports leagues are in Phoenix. If the Ducks were run as poorly as the Coyotes were they would also not have a huge fanbase.

Look at Florida. Their attendance was trash while the team was bad. Now that they are good they are selling out every game.

 

[Juxta Position]

Its the 11th biggest media market in NA.
There are 4.8 million people in the Phoenix area, twice Vegas and 4 times Salt Lake City areas.

The team made the playoffs 4 times since 2002. I dont blame the fans for not being invested. Why invest when the product sucks due to the ownership sucking. Why go to a game when the experience sucks.

I get it's hard to understand in Edmonton where there is nothing to do except hockey, but large markets in America have other options. All 3 of the other major sports leagues are in Phoenix. If the Ducks were run as poorly as the Coyotes were they would also not have a huge fanbase.

Look at Florida. Their attendance was trash while the team was bad. Now that they are good they are selling out every game.

First off, i don't live in Edmonton, secondly the size of the market is of no consequence if the populous does not connect with the sport. If Houston got a professional Cricket team, would anyone be surprised if they struggled to get fans to the games?

There could be 20 million people in the Phoenix area, if nobody's watching the games it's irrelevant, which hockey largely is in Arizona.

 

[Gliff]

First off, i don't live in Edmonton, secondly the size of the market is of no consequence if the populous does not connect with the sport. If Houston got a professional Cricket team, would anyone be surprised if they struggled to get fans to the games?

There could be 20 million people in the Phoenix area, if nobody's watching the games it's irrelevant, which hockey largely is in Arizona.

Hockey isn't cricket so lets keep the strawman to a minimum. And you either just didn't read my comment or you don't care.

The team has been bad, because of ownership, for over 20 years. They have been in need of an arena made for hockey for the whole of their existence. There are 3 other professional sports teams in town. Why would you invest in a team/experience like that?

 

[TheLegend]

Coyotes changed owners a few times. Why didn't anyone good view the Coyotes as a worthwhile investment over the past 15 years since Moyes declared bankruptcy?

The annual summers of the media pushing out countless stories of relocation certainly didn't do much help.

Can imagine most want something turnkey, vs having to deal with the city on a new arena and have the spotlight of being a billionaire asking for taxpayer funds right off the hop before they've built up some goodwill.

This... to a large degree.

But there's a lot more that can be said.

 

[Juxta Position]

Hockey isn't cricket so lets keep the strawman to a minimum. And you either just didn't read my comment or you don't care.

The team has been bad, because of ownership, for over 20 years. They have been in need of an arena made for hockey for the whole of their existence. There are 3 other professional sports teams in town. Why would you invest in a team/experience like that?

That is not a strawman argument. for as upset as you're getting (no idea why) the truth is that hockey is not big enough in that area regardless of how many people live there.

Maybe it would have been different if they would've had success early into the move from Winnipeg, and you can blame ownership/management whatever the cause for the lack of success was, but they didn't have success, so once the novelty of a new team wore off, apathy towards the Coyotes set in. there is very little foundational knowledge and love of the game of hockey from residents in that area.

Saying Arizona is a good market because the other pro sports teams do well there is exactly the reason why hockey ISN'T surviving there. it's a niche sport that the majority of residents haven't played, or grown up watching, so why would they divide their attention from the local sports teams they have followed their whole lives and probably played the sport growing up?

When Vegas moved in, they were the only professional sports team in town, plus they went to the Stanley Cup final in their first season, and have been good from day 1. they've solidified a fan base because of those reasons. Arizona has had not done the same.

 

[Salsero1]

That is not a strawman argument. for as upset as you're getting (no idea why) the truth is that hockey is not big enough in that area regardless of how many people live there.

Maybe it would have been different if they would've had success early into the move from Winnipeg, and you can blame ownership/management whatever the cause for the lack of success was, but they didn't have success, so once the novelty of a new team wore off, apathy towards the Coyotes set in. there is very little foundational knowledge and love of the game of hockey from residents in that area.

Saying Arizona is a good market because the other pro sports teams do well there is exactly the reason why hockey ISN'T surviving there. it's a niche sport that the majority of residents haven't played, or grown up watching, so why would they divide their attention from the local sports teams they have followed their whole lives and probably played the sport growing up?

When Vegas moved in, they were the only professional sports team in town, plus they went to the Stanley Cup final in their first season, and have been good from day 1. they've solidified a fan base because of those reasons. Arizona has had not done the same.

How many people in Nashville, Tampa, Carolina, Florida, San Jose, Anaheim, Dallas, etc grew up playing and watching hockey? It doesn't hold them back from embracing the game.

I swear you True North folks think there's some "likes hockey" gene that you're either born with or not. It's not that complicated, put out a compelling product in a large enough market and it'll be fine.

 

[Gliff]

That is not a strawman argument. for as upset as you're getting (no idea why) the truth is that hockey is not big enough in that area regardless of how many people live there.

Maybe it would have been different if they would've had success early into the move from Winnipeg, and you can blame ownership/management whatever the cause for the lack of success was, but they didn't have success, so once the novelty of a new team wore off, apathy towards the Coyotes set in. there is very little foundational knowledge and love of the game of hockey from residents in that area.

Saying Arizona is a good market because the other pro sports teams do well there is exactly the reason why hockey ISN'T surviving there. it's a niche sport that the majority of residents haven't played, or grown up watching, so why would they divide their attention from the local sports teams they have followed their whole lives and probably played the sport growing up?

When Vegas moved in, they were the only professional sports team in town, plus they went to the Stanley Cup final in their first season, and have been good from day 1. they've solidified a fan base because of those reasons. Arizona has had not done the same.

How is comparing Hockey to Cricket in popularity in an American market not a strawman..... I think I'm done with you buddy.

How many people in Nashville, Tampa, Carolina, Florida, San Jose, Anaheim, Dallas, etc grew up playing and watching hockey? It doesn't hold them back from embracing the game.

Quit using logic. If the town isnt a "hockey town" then no way an NHL team can succeed.

 

[Juxta Position]

How many people in Nashville, Tampa, Carolina, Florida, San Jose, Anaheim, Dallas, etc grew up playing and watching hockey? It doesn't hold them back from embracing the game.

I swear you True North folks think there's some "likes hockey" gene that you're either born with or not. It's not that complicated, put out a compelling product in a large enough market and it'll be fine.

How is comparing Hockey to Cricket in popularity in an American market not a strawman..... I think I'm done with you buddy.


Quit using logic. If the town isnt a "hockey town" then no way an NHL team can succeed.

First off I'm not comparing the sports, and by the way Cricket is the second largest sport in popularity in the world, but what i said is nobody gives a shit about Cricket in Houston Texas, much like nobody gave a shit about hockey in Arizona, regardless of how big the market is. it's a sport they are unfamiliar with and have zero interest in learning.

You guys believe that if the Coyotes had what? put up more posters? maybe had a televised police chase on the freeway with their mascot on a Zamboni? or had a more likeable owner the team would've survived in the desert? C'mon.

i don't care if there are a billion people in Arizona, if only 5000 of them give a shit about hockey, the team won't survive there.

Every southern market isn't the same, Nashville is a fantastic hockey market, Arizona is not. They had 30 years and multiple owners to figure it out, including the NHL itself as an owner, and still no one gave a shit. They were flat out apathetic towards hockey, they proved that over 3 decades.

The Coyotes were a drain on the league, a financial anchor that the NHL should be happy to rid itself of, but Bettman is only looking at the same thing you guys are, population size. Well, the population of Arizona has shown they don't care about hockey, and i say good riddance, go somewhere that does care.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

They should give Arizona back all their draft picks.

The expansion rules have been extremely generous, but it is going to be tough for them to see another city get to benefit from the years of finishing near the bottom and accumulating all those picks, prospects, and future young stars. Almost like the Browns moving, and Baltimore winning a Stanley Bowl the next year.

 

[Takeahnase]

Nhl is probably a distant memory in Phoenix. They haven't played there for decades.

“Area”

I’ve worked in Glendale, Chandler, Surprise, and even down in Casa Grande. Outside of the latter it’s all Phoenix area to me.

Just as someone from Royal Oak, Michigan is from the Detroit area.

 

[StreetHawk]

They should give Arizona back all their draft picks.

The expansion rules have been extremely generous, but it is going to be tough for them to see another city get to benefit from the years of finishing near the bottom and accumulating all those picks, prospects, and future young stars. Almost like the Browns moving, and Baltimore winning a Stanley Bowl the next year.

Don’t think any future expansion club will do as well as LV did. Too many clubs over thought it. Plus most were giving out nmc like candy. Not as many clubs in a tough situation for Seattle vs LV.

Teams will know when the next ED is. So, they should be more conservative with NMC and ED protection.

 

[voyageur]

Gary can officially retire when he brings teams back to Atlanta and Arizona. Because it clears his slate. Colorado did better than Nordiques. Carolina did better than Whalers. In terms of attendance and success in relocation. Winnipeg got their team back when both Atlanta and Arizona were in trouble.

If the NBA owner wants in, it's a safe bet if he'll be invested in the league and the market. Atlanta is trickier but they'll find good ownership, and they'll do well enough to compete, probably better than the Jets, honestly. I think Houston doesn't get a team with Fertitta negotiating publicly. That's not how it works with Gary and the board.

 

[joestevens29]

I've seen comments about shitty ownership and not getting on ice results for some reasons to why Arizona hasn't worked out. Which is fair.

My question becomes, how long are fans willing to wait for the new Arizona club if they aren't successful out of the gate?

To me it would seem the leash would be short for interest if the team doesn't have results early on.

 

[Figgy44]

I was in Arizona a few years ago and someone I was speaking with said the city had changed significantly post pandemic. The person I spoke with (a born and raised who had worked in Calgary for a few years) had mentioned there had been a significant migration into the area (ie: California) and a significant migration out (Texas). Add in the ownership shituation for the last decade, and I wonder if that contributed to the ennui or lack of interest in the Coyotes.

Based on what I saw in Scottsdale, what I heard from this individual and what I noticed driving around, there's a lot of interest in sports in general from those in the area. Even college sports interest was really damn high. It's basically just hockey that's in a horrible situation.

As much as I agree with what others have been saying about the Yotes, remove shituation, better owners, less issues with the rink location/tie it into the entertainment/college sports scene and I think they could do just as well as Dallas/Nashville/St Louis/Vegas as a hub for hockey. I don't trust Seravalli, but I do think that in the future, Arizona NHL hockey could be a huge success.

 

[DuklaNation]

A geographic area having a large TV market doesn't always translate into good ratings. The national TV coverage obviously factors in also for nationally covered games. Wouldn't go into these proposed areas until an arena has already started or is in a guaranteed location. However, I just don't see these new franchises being great options on their own. This is mostly about national TV deals.

 

[LuckyDay]

@rt is this true ?

I'm guessing he's talking about Valley Fever which is a thing in California now.

 

[JKG33]

Atlanta (East)
Houston (West)
Arizona (West)

Real question is, who would be the 4th team? Should be a team that would slot naturally into the Eastern conference. Another western team would push Chicago or Nashville east and result in them being the only team in that conference not in the Eastern Time zone -- something which they would really hate.

I mean I think Nashville would be happier playing more geographic (SEC) rivals like the Florida's, Carolina, and Atlanta than they would Winnipeg/Minnesota/Colorado.

I'd have to imagine Chicago would be happier to be reunited with teams like Detroit, Columbus and Toronto over staying in the west.

I'm not sure who a 3rd western expansion team would be, but moving Nashville/Chicago east would not be a road block

 

[LuckyDay]

I was in Arizona a few years ago and someone I was speaking with said the city had changed significantly post pandemic. The person I spoke with (a born and raised who had worked in Calgary for a few years) had mentioned there had been a significant migration into the area (ie: California) and a significant migration out (Texas). Add in the ownership shituation for the last decade, and I wonder if that contributed to the ennui or lack of interest in the Coyotes.

Based on what I saw in Scottsdale, what I heard from this individual and what I noticed driving around, there's a lot of interest in sports in general from those in the area. Even college sports interest was really damn high. It's basically just hockey that's in a horrible situation.

As much as I agree with what others have been saying about the Yotes, remove shituation, better owners, less issues with the rink location/tie it into the entertainment/college sports scene and I think they could do just as well as Dallas/Nashville/St Louis/Vegas as a hub for hockey. I don't trust Seravalli, but I do think that in the future, Arizona NHL hockey could be a huge success.

do you have this backwards? the opposite is a significant factor in California, so much so that that the legislature in California is trying to tax people who are leaving.

 

[Haatley]

I swear, if they get a team back before Atlanta…

But 10-15 years wouldn’t surprise me.

Why would Atlanta be next? They have had teams fail there multiple times.

 

[Osprey]

If at first you don't succeed, just keep slamming your head into that brick wall. It is bound to cave in at some point.

The brick wall or your head?