OT: Sens Lounge LXXX | HEY! BRANDINE!

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Qward

Because! That's why!
Jul 23, 2010
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Behind you, look out
I love CPGREY. I listen to his pod casts with Brady all the time. You would think their podcasts would be about an American and an Australian living in London but no. They talk about house hold clutter and Brady's fascination with airplane crashes. Or how Grey puts out 1 video for every 500 of brady's.
 

Caeldan

Whippet Whisperer
Jun 21, 2008
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I think it's pretty much a given that nearly every website with 'truth' in its name provides anything but.

Similar to how generally for a newspaper article, the actual answer to a headline that asks a question is 'no'.
 

BondraTime

Registered User
Nov 20, 2005
29,691
25,333
East Coast
I think it's pretty much a given that nearly every website with 'truth' in its name provides anything but.

Similar to how generally for a newspaper article, the actual answer to a headline that asks a question is 'no'.

I was reading an article a few months back, and this website was said to have false information abroad. The person interviewed was said to have been quoted in an article on the website and he laughed, then got angry at the notion that he would ever permit any of his work to be print in that "falsehood rag" as he dubbed it.
 

YouGotAStuGoing

Registered User
Mar 26, 2010
19,387
4,966
Ottawa, Ontario
I have a hard time believing that Timmy's actually decided to make good coffee for once, for probably the first time since the early 90's, but I'll give it a try when I'm in town in December.

Save your time and money. I'm with Smeddy on this one — it's the same burnt coffee, only stronger.
 

saskriders

Can't Hold Leads
Sep 11, 2010
25,086
1,618
Calgary
This would be my choice for electoral reform, if any of the parties in Canada ever got their arses around to changing the horrid First Past The Post system we have now - Single Transferable Vote.

Great video from GGP Grey, as usual:



Mine too. FPTP is a relic of the 19th century, just flat out horrible.


The one thing I wish he talked more about was how to count the surplus votes (ie the extra votes a winner gets) there are plenty of different methods, even a wiki page that has a big chunk devoted to these different methods. The dumbest are the ones which randomly choose which votes are chosen to have their 2nd choice count, it seems ridiculous that some votes would count more than others and randomness would determine that. My preferred method would be where every vote is counted, but only by fractional amounts. For instance if the first round winning candidate was the Progressive Canadian party and he needed 25% to get in, but got 50% of the vote, you would divide the amount of votes he need by the amount he need got (25/50) and end up with one half. That would make every one who voted for him who had a second choice have their second choice count for a half a vote. That keeps the math in the system working, but eliminates randomness that could skew the results.
 

Caeldan

Whippet Whisperer
Jun 21, 2008
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Mine too. FPTP is a relic of the 19th century, just flat out horrible.


The one thing I wish he talked more about was how to count the surplus votes (ie the extra votes a winner gets) there are plenty of different methods, even a wiki page that has a big chunk devoted to these different methods. The dumbest are the ones which randomly choose which votes are chosen to have their 2nd choice count, it seems ridiculous that some votes would count more than others and randomness would determine that. My preferred method would be where every vote is counted, but only by fractional amounts. For instance if the first round winning candidate was the Progressive Canadian party and he needed 25% to get in, but got 50% of the vote, you would divide the amount of votes he need by the amount he need got (25/50) and end up with one half. That would make every one who voted for him who had a second choice have their second choice count for a half a vote. That keeps the math in the system working, but eliminates randomness that could skew the results.

I'm a fan of IRV personally. Though reading into it, sounds like for the purposes of our system IRV and STV are in result the same thing.

Though I think the flow is slightly different and in practice IRV is more you mark your ballot based on first choice first, then bottom up based on who you don't want elected.
 

saskriders

Can't Hold Leads
Sep 11, 2010
25,086
1,618
Calgary
I'm a fan of IRV personally. Though reading into it, sounds like for the purposes of our system IRV and STV are in result the same thing.

Though I think the flow is slightly different and in practice IRV is more you mark your ballot based on first choice first, then bottom up based on who you don't want elected.

IRV and STV have not much in common. STV is designed to achieve proportional representation, IRV (or AV) is not
 

Caeldan

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Jun 21, 2008
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IRV and STV have not much in common. STV is designed to achieve proportional representation, IRV (or AV) is not

In a single winner system though, they'll work out the same.
Both would just keep dropping out the lowest candidate while adding the next in line preference to the remaining until someone has 50%+1.
 

saskriders

Can't Hold Leads
Sep 11, 2010
25,086
1,618
Calgary
In a single winner system though, they'll work out the same.
Both would just keep dropping out the lowest candidate while adding the next in line preference to the remaining until someone has 50%+1.

Yes, but a big advantage of STV is the fact that it is a multi winner system. Some of the affects include:

-A more proportional system (ie 40% of the popular vote should get you about 40% of the seats)

--This means that citizen's ideologies are not over or under represented in parliament

-Less wasted votes (votes electing no one)

-More people have a local representative they would have voted for, and would be ok talking to (even a left winger, like me, in Alberta)

-In general more women and minorities are elected to parliament

-Since it is more difficult to win a majority (due to being more proportional), parties actually have to work together

--Also, with fewer majorities and more consistant results there is more long term stability instead of parties just undoing what their predecessors did
 

Caeldan

Whippet Whisperer
Jun 21, 2008
15,459
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Yes, but a big advantage of STV is the fact that it is a multi winner system. Some of the affects include:

-A more proportional system (ie 40% of the popular vote should get you about 40% of the seats)

--This means that citizen's ideologies are not over or under represented in parliament

-Less wasted votes (votes electing no one)

-More people have a local representative they would have voted for, and would be ok talking to (even a left winger, like me, in Alberta)

-In general more women and minorities are elected to parliament

-Since it is more difficult to win a majority (due to being more proportional), parties actually have to work together

--Also, with fewer majorities and more consistant results there is more long term stability instead of parties just undoing what their predecessors did

STV doesn't have to be a multi-winner system.

Also, we effectively already do the proportional part of the voting by electing parliamentary members in our ridings - and the majority from there assumes control of the house.

I'm saying leave system as is, but change FPTP to IRV... because really, we're still electing an individual to represent our local interests at parliament (which some MP/MPPs are much better at than others admittedly).

I don't want a system where we just randomly assign 108 PC members, 100 NDP and 100 Liberals to fill the house of commons because that's how the popularity split down.
 

Caeldan

Whippet Whisperer
Jun 21, 2008
15,459
1,046
Aw yiss.

BonkTastic is returning to the CTC. Sunday, Jan 4th vs the Tampa Bay Lightning.

Section 109.

Everything is happening!

:handclap::yo:

I need to get to a regular season game this year, though likely it'll be around Family Day weekend.

The gf has been saying she wants to go see one... though I think her only experience so far to see an NHL game was Boston-Montreal in Boston, so I don't think this'll compare :laugh:
 

saskriders

Can't Hold Leads
Sep 11, 2010
25,086
1,618
Calgary
STV doesn't have to be a multi-winner system.

Also, we effectively already do the proportional part of the voting by electing parliamentary members in our ridings - and the majority from there assumes control of the house.

I'm saying leave system as is, but change FPTP to IRV... because really, we're still electing an individual to represent our local interests at parliament (which some MP/MPPs are much better at than others admittedly).

I don't want a system where we just randomly assign 108 PC members, 100 NDP and 100 Liberals to fill the house of commons because that's how the popularity split down.

Being a multi-winner system is what causes all the benefits of STV. Being a single winner system is what causes all the downfalls of FPTP, and IRV is barely better.

STV still elects local candidates which still represent their constituents, there are just more than one MP per riding representing different ideologies which a significant amount of people in that riding support.

I don't want a system where the party that gets the power is just determined by swing voters in swing ridings.
 

BonkTastic

ಠ_ಠ
Nov 9, 2010
30,901
10,092
Parts Unknown
Watch out for the jerks in the black jerseys that will fight you over a stick.

Lousy tampa fans.

Oh right, I forgot about that! That was a Tampa game, eh?

It resolved itself in the end, if I remember correctly? Someone in the front office helped you out with that?
 

Caeldan

Whippet Whisperer
Jun 21, 2008
15,459
1,046
Being a multi-winner system is what causes all the benefits of STV. Being a single winner system is what causes all the downfalls of FPTP, and IRV is barely better.

STV still elects local candidates which still represent their constituents, there are just more than one MP per riding representing different ideologies which a significant amount of people in that riding support.

I don't want a system where the party that gets the power is just determined by swing voters in swing ridings.

IRV would actually improve the current system of people 'strategically' voting for Liberal instead of Green and NDP because they don't want their votes not to count. Also could improve voter turnout since no matter what, your vote will eventually count.

Multi-winners per riding would double the number of MPs, which is way too much overhead to have a bunch of people being entirely partisan. Plus until we have more than 2 or 3 parties likely to come in first or second, makes no sense because it'll pretty much be an even split of Liberal and PC, with NDP being the swing vote that you want to avoid.

IRV is also a significantly smaller change to the total reworking of the system you're suggesting which means it might have a chance in our lifetimes of actually being enacted.
 

Qward

Because! That's why!
Jul 23, 2010
19,036
6,070
Behind you, look out
Yup. They mailed me a signed Kyle Turris game star stick. :)
Turris is my sons favorite player now. Not sure if it was the stick or more likely meeting him and then getting a bobble head.
 

MainDotC

Depth Defenceman
Apr 29, 2007
18,987
10
Westerville, OH
Hasn't that site been refuted many times by many people?

I think it's pretty much a given that nearly every website with 'truth' in its name provides anything but.

Similar to how generally for a newspaper article, the actual answer to a headline that asks a question is 'no'.

I was reading an article a few months back, and this website was said to have false information abroad. The person interviewed was said to have been quoted in an article on the website and he laughed, then got angry at the notion that he would ever permit any of his work to be print in that "falsehood rag" as he dubbed it.

I think with any news source my philosophy is "you do the best you can". Without googling I think you would agree that every news site, mainstream or not, has been refuted or discredited at some point in time, but some are much better at making you forget about it. Unless we're actually there to witness (and even that is disputable sometimes) we never know what is real news versus what is manufactured. We have a general idea and usually it's whatever convinces you, but almost never convinces everyone. Take for example the events of 9/11 - we've all read about how tragic it was and to whom we should channel our anger. However, whether you agree with them or not, there have been arguments covering various conspiracy angles - some credible and some not. Regardless, you do the best you can and the wise do their best not to judge without feeling absolutely comfortable with the source. In my opinion everything should be taken with a grain of salt.

Timmy's dark roast is perfection.

I have a hard time believing that Timmy's actually decided to make good coffee for once, for probably the first time since the early 90's, but I'll give it a try when I'm in town in December.

Save your time and money. I'm with Smeddy on this one — it's the same burnt coffee, only stronger.

I think the same about Dunkin. I'm so glad Timmy's has expanded here in Syracuse and although you may not like it I love it, and usually everyone to which I've visited has been a great experience. It's genetically modified food of course, but that's one exception I don't mind making.
 

saskriders

Can't Hold Leads
Sep 11, 2010
25,086
1,618
Calgary
IRV would actually improve the current system of people 'strategically' voting for Liberal instead of Green and NDP because they don't want their votes not to count. Also could improve voter turnout since no matter what, your vote will eventually count.

Multi-winners per riding would double the number of MPs, which is way too much overhead to have a bunch of people being entirely partisan. Plus until we have more than 2 or 3 parties likely to come in first or second, makes no sense because it'll pretty much be an even split of Liberal and PC, with NDP being the swing vote that you want to avoid.

IRV is also a significantly smaller change to the total reworking of the system you're suggesting which means it might have a chance in our lifetimes of actually being enacted.

IRV could still prevent a large percent of people from having someone they would vote for in parliament. Also, if you are going to to say IRV would increase voter turnout than STV would too.

No, the number of MP's would either stay the same, or change slightly. The current ridings would be combined with 2 or 3 others to make larger ridings. There may be a few more seats because you can't combine a chunk of Winnipeg with a rural district, or part of Nova Scotia with New Brunswick, but the added cost would be negligible in terms of the budget and would be worth it to have a better electoral system. For example, looking at Alberta in the next election there will be 34 seats, 10 in Calgary, 9 in Edmonton, and 2 that encompass part of Red Deer and other parts of the province. Under STV we might see 3 Calgary ridings returning 3 MPs each (with one returning four), 3 Edmonton ridings returning 3 MPs each, 1 riding encompassing Red Deer (and a larger chunk of the surrounding area then the two current ridings do) returning three candidates. The remaining 23 candidates would come from about 7 ridings with most returning 3, and a couple returning 4. The same process would than be done in each province.

Why does it matter how many parties have a chance at coming in first? The point of a representative democracy is that the populations views are represented in parliament. What better way to due that than having most citizens having a representative they voted for, without undermining the citizens who voted for someone else.

I have no problem if it is just an even split of Conservatives and Liberals with the NDP being the "swing vote", (I think you misinterpreted what I meant by swing voters, I meant voters who don't always vote for the same party) if that is an accurate representation of the Canadian population. I also might add that STV would also greatly increase the number of Green MPs.

I don't care if STV is a more significant change. FPTP is a terrible system, and IRV does little to improve it (IRV basically makes every riding a two party FPTP). If we had a referendum on FPTP vs STV I would consider it to likely be the most important vote I will ever cast in my life. Also, the biggest advocate in Canada for voting reform, Fair Vote Canada, supports some kind of PR (ie not IRV) with the two most discussed being MMP and STV (of which I find STV much superior, but would still take MMP over FPTP or IRV) so if electoral reform ever did become a big issue in Canada (which it might under a NDP government, which isn't unrealistic anymore) there would be a big vocal presence for STV/PR.

Also, IRE still has many problems such as failing all the criterion:

Condorcet winner:
The Condorcet candidate or Condorcet winner of an election is the candidate who, when compared with every other candidate, is preferred by more voters. Informally, the Condorcet winner is the person who would win a two-candidate election against each of the other candidates.

Smith Criterion:
The Smith criterion is a voting systems criterion defined such that its satisfaction by a voting system occurs when the system always elects a candidate that is in the Smith set, which is the smallest non-empty subset of the candidates such that every candidate in the subset is majority-preferred over every candidate not in the subset. (A candidate X is said to be majority-preferred over another candidate Y if, in a one-on-one competition between X & Y, the number of voters who prefer X over Y exceeds the number of voters who prefer Y over X.)

Monotonicity Criterion:
The monotonicity criterion is a voting system criterion used to analyze both single and multiple winner ranked voting systems. A ranked voting system is monotonic if it is neither possible to circumvent the election of a candidate by raising him on some of the ballots, nor possible to elect an otherwise unelected candidate by lowering him on some of the ballots (nothing else is altered on any ballot). In single winner elections that is to say no winner is harmed by up-ranking and no loser can win by down-ranking.

Participation Criterion:
The participation criterion is a voting system criterion. It is also known as the "no show paradox". It has been defined as follows:

In a deterministic framework, the participation criterion says that the addition of a ballot, where candidate A is strictly preferred to candidate B, to an existing tally of votes should not change the winner from candidate A to candidate B.
In a probabilistic framework, the participation criterion says that the addition of a ballot, where each candidate of the set X is strictly preferred to each other candidate, to an existing tally of votes should not reduce the probability that the winner is chosen from the set X.

Reversal Symmetry:
Reversal symmetry is a voting system criterion which requires that if candidate A is the unique winner, and each voter's individual preferences are inverted, then A must not be elected
 

Caeldan

Whippet Whisperer
Jun 21, 2008
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Well, for one - coming from some ridings with effective MPs I would not want to see ridings significantly increased.
You'd also end up then likely concentrating the power even moreso in the hands on Ontario and Quebec.

And I'm saying that if you have a multi-winner (so I'm assuming we're just doing 2 per riding)... you're either going to have NDP/PC, or PC/Liberal, and maybe in some rare instances Liberal/NDP.
Because even with an STV system, all the little guys are still going to get dropped out to add their votes to the big guys eventually.

Regarding your criterion listed... STV fails Condorcet, Participation, Monotonicity at the very least, and I believe that it could fail Reversal as well.

There's no perfect preference system so introduce IRV first, as a stepping stone. This way you start seeing more votes for other parties such as Green, and it's possible they may get enough votes in some ridings to win as a result since people are confident enough to put them as a #1 choice (and if they don't win, at least your second choice of big party can apply).

From there, over time perhaps other methods can be built on that base.

But I think we can agree almost any preference system is better than FPTP.
 
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