Speculation: Sens, Lebreton, and the NCC part II

[BankStreetParade]

Literally everyone around the league understands why Sens fans don't fill the arena as much as they used to(well except Toronto media which thrives on bashing us). Everyone considers Melnyk one of the worst sports team owners around. Everyone understands that you can't expect fans to support a tire-fire of a team, especially when there's no light at the end of the tunnel.

Yet, here we are on HF, with a dozen of the same posters who spend every day filling every thread attempting to pass the buck by trying to make this about how cheap Sens fans are and absolving Melnyk of almost all responsibility. It's toxic as all hell and I honestly don't understand what the end-goal is for this group aside from being a good example of how divisive Eugene is.

And now the Melnyk White Knights have crowned their Apologist King in some anonymous, ultra-insecure rich guy to somehow validate everything because hey, he's rich after all.

Blech.

Melnyk White Knights? Wow, that nickname is as drab and uninspired as the over-the-top negativities that you #MelnykOut diehards spend all your time drowning this forum with.

You think we're apologists? I'm sorry, but how could you possibly think that? Many, if not all of us, have said that we don't support many of the decisions and some of the direction this team has taken. All of us wish we had a different owner, someone better in front of a microphone and someone who would stay out of the hockey ops. But I also recognize that this team doesn't get the same level of support as the teams you guys love to talk about comparing us to.

But some of you guys are just living in this insane world where there's a knight in shining armour coming to save the Senators. Guess what? No one is coming to lose 10s of millions of dollars a year to satisfy this fanbase with a hilarious sense of entitlement.

Ottawa fans have always wanted a premium product at discount pricing. That's just the reality of the situation. And there's a lot of history to draw on to make that conclusion. Sorry it bothers you so much.

 

[mysens]

Melnyk White Knights? Wow, that nickname is as drab and uninspired as the over-the-top negativities that you #MelnykOut diehards spend all your time drowning this forum with.

You think we're apologists? I'm sorry, but how could you possibly think that? Many, if not all of us, have said that we don't support many of the decisions and some of the direction this team has taken. All of us wish we had a different owner, someone better in front of a microphone and someone who would stay out of the hockey ops. But I also recognize that this team doesn't get the same level of support as the teams you guys love to talk about comparing us to.

But some of you guys are just living in this insane world where there's a knight in shining armour coming to save the Senators. Guess what? No one is coming to lose 10s of millions of dollars a year to satisfy this fanbase with a hilarious sense of entitlement.

Ottawa fans have always wanted a premium product at discount pricing. That's just the reality of the situation. And there's a lot of history to draw on to make that conclusion. Sorry it bothers you so much.

Boy, you are bang on with everything you wrote. The family coming in will not be liquidating assets from their portfolio they worked ever so hard for and then lose it. You are correct, they will be smart, thrifty spenders. People in this city are as you say, riddled with a sense of entitlement. Best product with no income from fan support. The family will not sign up for this. The fans in this city will scare any new investors of injecting their hard earned money, it seems people here think that big money comes easy or handed over.

 

[Yak]

Fans want this team ran like a proper NHL franchise. If a owner can't afford to do that they should not own a NHL franchise. Pro sports franchises are not for penny pinchers and run the franchise on Skelton budgets and staff.

Fans won't throw their hard earned dollars down the drain when they see a mismanaged franchise continously degrading its product and brand.

EM has been running this team into the ground, he does not care about the fans or the longevity of the brand.His mismanangement , poor decision makng and health of this franchise makes me question if he really is even interested in running a pro sports franchise.

Owning a NHL franchise is a privilege that not many people get a chance to do but at the same time if you can't afford to be in this business time sell and move on.EM needs the move on.

 

[BloodRedArmy]

Yep, there you go again. We are not customers, as lame an argument as ever. Have you returned tickets with your receipt because the product was faulty or did not deliver as described? Weak, weak stance compounded by the product/customer argument.

Only in Ottawa. You keep doing you and I will continue trying to live with myself.

Ummm... what about Chicago? Pittsburgh? Washington? Tampa? ALL examples of teams that struggled to fill the building when their product was complete trash. Look at Vancouver... they had like 1800000 sellouts in a row in their Bertuzzi/ Naslund/ Sedins heyday, and now?

Also, Ottawa has less than 1/6th the population of the GTA. That's 6 million potential customers vs. 1 million. Pretty significant, no? Plus, Toronto is stacked with corporate enterprises, whereas Ottawa's lifeline is a massive entity that is legally prohibited from sponsoring/ engaging in business with a sports franchise.

Then we have the Phoenix pay debacle. If you honestly think this has no part of what's going on with the Sens attendance woes, you're out to lunch.

Then add to that the location of the arena.

Oh, and by the way... when the pizza line was in full stride and the Sens were a powerhouse, how were the attendance numbers then?

 

[Tuna99]

Boy, you are bang on with everything you wrote. The family coming in will not be liquidating assets from their portfolio they worked ever so hard for and then lose it. You are correct, they will be smart, thrifty spenders. People in this city are as you say, riddled with a sense of entitlement. Best product with no income from fan support. The family will not sign up for this. The fans in this city will scare any new investors of injecting their hard earned money, it seems people here think that big money comes easy or handed over.

People is Ottawa are not riddled with a sense of entitlement, they are some of the most humble and community oriented down home people anywhere.

You’re talking like the new owner is going to sort the fans out, tell your mate not to F with this fanbase, this fanbase was as patient and gave rh benefit of the doubt to Meknyck for years when he was doing drunken interviews and insulting the city and the people running it.

And honestly mysens I hope you are playing a character and you’re not this insufferable

 

[JD1]

has this city ever in its history regularly filled the building at average league ticket prices? no. ticket giveaways were huge and prices were low by league standards. people saying "an owner spends and we'll spend" are making noise. this market has never worked this way. TV deals have gone crazy and that's driven salaries crazy. The cap coming out of the 04 lockout was 39. Today it knocks on 80. That's a double in 14 years. Have salaries doubled? nope. have ticket prices doubled? nope. the team spent and was run properly for 10 + years under melnyk. but in those years it was never able to consistently fill the building at average prices or better. saying otherwise is simply not true. so whose fault is it that we cannot sell? arguably everyone's. so many factors in play. corporate season tickets aren't where they need to be because businesses selling to the feds cannot entertain their clients. compounding on that is the NHL's own survey noting this market has the smallest potential corporate base to sell in to. as far as joe fan goes we do well however this market is very much a place where people end up for employment as opposed to being from here and in this crazy country that means people arrive with their hockey prejudices in tact. a lot of people with money aren't Sens fans, they are fans of where they are from. the population is growing...but are they Sens fans?

this argument about the team needing to spend in a show me kind of way is simplistic and off base.

there is a problem in this market where the market itself struggles to generate revenue in order to spend where some here think we should. that is a very simple mathematical reality.

there are only 2 ways around it
1. increase revenue thru increased gates (can't increase tv deals because they are locked for another 8 years or so)
2. an ownership group prepared to spend at a level that revenue doesn't support

some combo of both works and is likely the solution. maybe lebreton resolves point 1. but in order to get there there is the small matter of needing 500M + to build a new facility and that is going to cause a tightening of the belt

sorry to rant.....but I don't buy at all the argument of you spend and we'll spend. I think it is a convenient mask that people hide behind

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

People is Ottawa are not riddled with a sense of entitlement, they are some of the most humble and community oriented down home people anywhere.

You’re talking like the new owner is going to sort the fans out, tell your mate not to F with this fanbase, this fanbase was as patient and gave rh benefit of the doubt to Meknyck for years when he was doing drunken interviews and insulting the city and the people running it.

And honestly mysens I hope you are playing a character and you’re not this insufferable

Now now. Don't be calling out the Nigerian Prince of the forums. He might have to invent a tropical island to add to his portfolio.

 

[Flamingo]

I can't answer for the whole city, but I'll buy more tickets for an entertaining team. I'll stay after the game and have a beer and snack at Bert's until the parking lot clears out. I won't prescribe a bunch of improvements to parking or music or the concourse here.

An entertaining team would be one with a roster flush with talent and a chance of competing or improving. I'm not interested in watching a team peter out through gradual attrition of talent.

If ownership starts telling me I'm a crappy fan (again), I'll leave it up to them to figure out how to entice me to come to games again.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I can't answer for the whole city, but I'll buy more tickets for an entertaining team. I'll stay after the game and have a beer and snack at Bert's until the parking lot clears out. I won't prescribe a bunch of improvements to parking or music or the concourse here.

An entertaining team would be one with a roster flush with talent and a chance of competing or improving. I'm not interested in watching a team peter out through gradual attrition of talent.

If ownership starts telling me I'm a crappy fan (again), I'll leave it up to them to figure out how to entice me to come to games again.

Well said.

I go to hockey games to watch hockey. I loved it a few decades ago, where pretty much the only non-hockey entertainment was the organ, and perhaps a few minutes of the timbits kids on ice during intermission. I'd be happy if all the music was gone from games.

But, holy hell, this stupid city should've had LRT up and running city wide 30 years ago. That's one thing I won't blame on Eugene.

 

[bert]

Fans want this team ran like a proper NHL franchise. If a owner can't afford to do that they should not own a NHL franchise. Pro sports franchises are not for penny pinchers and run the franchise on Skelton budgets and staff.

Fans won't throw their hard earned dollars down the drain when they see a mismanaged franchise continously degrading its product and brand.

EM has been running this team into the ground, he does not care about the fans or the longevity of the brand.His mismanangement , poor decision makng and health of this franchise makes me question if he really is even interested in running a pro sports franchise.

Owning a NHL franchise is a privilege that not many people get a chance to do but at the same time if you can't afford to be in this business time sell and move on.EM needs the move on.

Not a hard concept to understand. Alas the apologists wont get it. No one here expects the organization to lose millions. What people do want is it to be run efficiently and intelligently. With quality people at the helm.

What we are getting is the opposite, piss poor treatment of the employees and the fans, that is the issue. It starts at the top, if you cant recognize the issue has more to it than blindly spending you arent paying attention or you arent very perceptive.

 

[bert]

Boy, you are bang on with everything you wrote. The family coming in will not be liquidating assets from their portfolio they worked ever so hard for and then lose it. You are correct, they will be smart, thrifty spenders. People in this city are as you say, riddled with a sense of entitlement. Best product with no income from fan support. The family will not sign up for this. The fans in this city will scare any new investors of injecting their hard earned money, it seems people here think that big money comes easy or handed over.

You must not be following this franchise for very long or are new to the city. Its one of the two.

However to save yourself the embarrassment go review the attendance figures from the last 20 years. Its not very hard to find.

The irony of you calling out other people for having a sense of entitlement is just incredible.

 

[BatherSeason]

No. The rest of the league, including Toronto doesn't understand how we didn't fill the arena in the playoffs. Quit making stuff up. NBC, Sports Illustrated, etc...all had stories . It was embarrassing but go ahead and keep making excuses. You and your merrymen always do.

There were quite a few empty seats throughout the league this past playoffs, did the media notice and make a story of it, absolutely not.

 

[JD1]

The irony of you calling out other people for having a sense of entitlement is just incredible.

this is a public servant town is it not?

having a sense of entitlement is a widely held opinion of public servants is it not?

 

[Micklebot]

I can't answer for the whole city, but I'll buy more tickets for an entertaining team. I'll stay after the game and have a beer and snack at Bert's until the parking lot clears out. I won't prescribe a bunch of improvements to parking or music or the concourse here.

An entertaining team would be one with a roster flush with talent and a chance of competing or improving. I'm not interested in watching a team peter out through gradual attrition of talent.

If ownership starts telling me I'm a crappy fan (again), I'll leave it up to them to figure out how to entice me to come to games again.

Well, season tickets were at 13500 back in 2007-08 the year after the cup run, and on pace (couldn't find final numbers) for 13000 in 12-13 the year after we lost to NYR in 7 under MacLean, which was probably the two of the most exciting recent years in terms of the on ice product (not to be confused with on ice success). I think Ottawa has a history of supporting exciting products.

I know some folks like to talk about papering the arena, all the while ignoring the fact that it's normal practice in pro-sports, but we also don't really define it very well (or know what type of papering the team actually does).

Is selling a 12 game mini season pack for 2k not papering while selling a 10 game pack for 2k and throwing in 2 extra bonus tickets for buying early papering? Some of what people call papering is simply different ways of pricing your product to entice more sales. If we're talking about giveaways to radio stations or community groups and the likes, fine, though lots of teams do that kind of stuff as marketing expenses, far more concerning to me is empty seats, which we had an abundance of the last couple years. The other big ticket is revenue, and while we don't have access to those numbers, I'm sure they're dropping too, since odds are pretty good paid attendance hasn't improved just because we stopped "papering" or because we covered 1500 seats with a tarp. At least the comped tickets typically meant 20 bucks for parking for every 3 or 4 tickets, and a hot dog and a drink.

There's no doubt in my mind that the team needs to sell more tickets and increase revenue to justify spending to the cap. averaging 13-14k a game probably isn't enough to responsibly be a cap team (by which I mean, not consistently go into debt) even when considering additional revenue streams. I get that the real payoff is the increase in value over time, and you can't realize that profit till you sell, so you need to make things tread water until that time comes. The problem is this team has been shooting itself in the foot since 2008. Hires like Paddock, Hartsburgh, Clouston, to a lesser extent McLean, Cameron, tiffs with the team's all time most loved player, openly talking about cutting the off ice staff to the bone, tarping off seats, alluding to relocation, ect; this all has a profound effect on fan trust and confidence which quickly will bleed into fan support.

 

[JD1]

There were quite a few empty seats throughout the league this past playoffs, did the media notice and make a story of it, absolutely not.

no they didn't.

personally I was pretty pissed off how the media handled the team not selling out in the 2017 playoffs. I thought far too much was made of it and that it was sensationalism.

then again....it's understandable. .... we are talking Toronto media here so it's easy to understand how something so rare, a playoff run, doesn't sell out from a Toronto point of view

 

[bert]

this is a public servant town is it not?

having a sense of entitlement is a widely held opinion of public servants is it not?

I am not a public servant, I dont hold that opinion personally and ive never heard of it. Pretty large blanket statement.

So defenders of Eugene is that how the meetings go? Everyone in Ottawa has a sense of entitlement thats why people dont like the direction of the franchise? Forget looking at the obvious, running star players out of town, budget spending followed by irrational spending/thinking, firing loyal employees etc. Naaaa thats not it, its because were all entitled.

 

[Micklebot]

Boy, you are bang on with everything you wrote. The family coming in will not be liquidating assets from their portfolio they worked ever so hard for and then lose it. You are correct, they will be smart, thrifty spenders. People in this city are as you say, riddled with a sense of entitlement. Best product with no income from fan support. The family will not sign up for this. The fans in this city will scare any new investors of injecting their hard earned money, it seems people here think that big money comes easy or handed over.

If the family coming in has the same opinion of the people in this city as you apparently do, they should probably stay away. I wouldn't think it a good business practice to get into a market where you already have an adversarial relationship with your clients...

 

[Micklebot]

no they didn't.

personally I was pretty pissed off how the media handled the team not selling out in the 2017 playoffs. I thought far too much was made of it and that it was sensationalism.

then again....it's understandable. .... we are talking Toronto media here so it's easy to understand how something so rare, a playoff run, doesn't sell out from a Toronto point of view

To be fair, I think it was a bit of an extension on the already running story line on the teams attendance. It started with our first home game; not sure when the last time we didn't sell out the home opener was, little lone when it was against Toronto, and the first game of a highly regarded prospect (albeit for the opposing team).

 

[Mingus Dew]

Haha, one of many in the collection. That is my beater watch. Everyone needed proof, sorry I had to take a picture of the beater rolex. I can hear the belly aching from the same people. Get over it people.

You’ve got nothing to prove to me man. Was a funny picture.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Yep, as I was saying. Toxic.

 

[Rand0m]

So let me get this straight:
1. Ottawa never supported the Sens, when we they were one of the top attendance teams in the league it’s because they were giving away tickets
2. Fans in Ottawa are too cheap period.
3. Fans in Ottawa are not “true” fans because they won’t blindly support Melnyk and whatever he says.
4. It’s the Fans fault the playoff game didn’t sell out despite the fact it’s been happening to other teams since and will definitely be a continuing trend IMO.
5. Melnyk has been losing money constantly yet he doesn’t want to sell an asset that supposedly loses money year after year.
6. Potential new minority partners won’t spend either because of the above reasons yet they’re still interested in investing in this money losing venture.

Sounds to me like the Sens should just move to Seattle and get it over with.

 

[Smash88]

Ottawa supports the Sens. Just not as much as bigger cities that many people here try to compare us to. We've always sold about 16,000 seats proper. The rest were usually given away in many of the different promotions around the city.

Fans aren't really all that cheap, they just want value for their money. Right now people won't go out of their way to spend on the Sens because they feel Melnyk isn't doing anything to improve the team at all and just pocketing their money.

I don't know why it has to be so black/white with so many people. Melnyk needs to go because he is causing some serious damage to our already fragile fanbase, but let's not pretend that as soon as ownership changes we are going to be selling out every night either.

 

[Mightygoose]

Looking at this from the outside...

Is this prospective family/investors looking to partner the same party that made the rejected offer mentioned earlier this summer?

Not sure if anyone is even allowed to answer that but this does seem promising...fingers crossed it works out.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

So let me get this straight:
1. Ottawa never supported the Sens, when we they were one of the top attendance teams in the league it’s because they were giving away tickets
2. Fans in Ottawa are too cheap period.
3. Fans in Ottawa are not “true” fans because they won’t blindly support Melnyk and whatever he says.
4. It’s the Fans fault the playoff game didn’t sell out despite the fact it’s been happening to other teams since and will definitely be a continuing trend IMO.
5. Melnyk has been losing money constantly yet he doesn’t want to sell an asset that supposedly loses money year after year.
6. Potential new minority partners won’t spend either because of the above reasons yet they’re still interested in investing in this money losing venture.

Sounds to me like the Sens should just move to Seattle and get it over with.

Seriously. If the "superfans" and alleged new owners are going to be Melynk clones, then go already. Save your money for the relocation fees.

Hell, the way things are going, It's likely I'll be walking away from hockey anyways if that lockout happens in 2020. It's been what...3, 4 lockouts already under Bettmans reign? Enough is enough with all these greedy owners and athletes milking the fans dry.

 

[The Lewler]

Seriously. If the "superfans" and alleged new owners are going to be Melynk clones, then go already. Save your money for the relocation fees.

Hell, the way things are going, It's likely I'll be walking away from hockey anyways if that lockout happens in 2020. It's been what...3, 4 lockouts already under Bettmans reign? Enough is enough with all these greedy owners and athletes milking the fans dry.

Well, that's how markets are supposed to work, so I don't blame you.

Product becomes too expensive / unpalatable for customers? Well you better find a way to reduce costs and/or engage them again.

If revenues drop because people are leaving in droves, something will give.