Confirmed with Link: Seider signs (7 x $8.55m)

[Henkka]

Lalonde is terrible

I still think Lalonde was "terrible" on purpose. They controlled the Seider caphit, using him ONLY on toughest possible situations he is unable to score and also preventing a bit of his PP time (with Ghost as primary guy).

Now he has earned his deal, and they will start using him correctly.

This same f_king shit happened for Hedman at Tampa on his contract years. MA Bergeron playing the PP etc. It's pretty much Yzerman behind it, and coaches will complete the plan.

"Lalonde has learned from his mistakes" is probably the next narrative in here.

 

[Winger98]

I still think Lalonde was "terrible" on purpose. They controlled the Seider caphit, using him ONLY on toughest possible situations he is unable to score and also preventing a bit of his PP time (with Ghost as primary guy).

Now he has earned his deal, and they will start using him correctly.

This same f_king shit happened for Hedman at Tampa on his contract years. MA Bergeron playing the PP etc. It's pretty much Yzerman behind it, and coaches will complete the plan.

"Lalonde has learned from his mistakes" is probably the next narrative in here.

I think Seider was used how we thought it gave us the best chance to win. Our blueline was too weak for him to not take all of the hardest minutes, and I thought the toll it was taking was showing by season's end. There's a fair chance Seider could play 3 more minutes a night this season and have an easier work load.

 

[FlyguyOX]

I still think Lalonde was "terrible" on purpose. They controlled the Seider caphit, using him ONLY on toughest possible situations he is unable to score and also preventing a bit of his PP time (with Ghost as primary guy).

Now he has earned his deal, and they will start using him correctly.

This same f_king shit happened for Hedman at Tampa on his contract years. MA Bergeron playing the PP etc. It's pretty much Yzerman behind it, and coaches will complete the plan.

"Lalonde has learned from his mistakes" is probably the next narrative in here.

It's the only reasonable explanation, but risking your guys development with that kind of scheme is ridiculous.

 

[Henkka]

I think Seider was used how we thought it gave us the best chance to win. Our blueline was too weak for him to not take all of the hardest minutes, and I thought the toll it was taking was showing by season's end. There's a fair chance Seider could play 3 more minutes a night this season and have an easier work load.

I think Seider could play easily more than 22 minutes. Like 25. Then he would get some shifts against weak lines and produce more.

Also that 1st PP vs. 2nd PP difference is pretty big always for defencemen. Seider had 17 PP-points and Ghost 29p. 12 points more for Seider and something extra from ES too, and he is a 60-point guy, instead of 42p.

60-point guy at negotiations would have been 10M+ guy. But now he is 8.55M.

That's the Yzerman "miracle" and Lalonde being "terrible".

 

[ricky0034]

I think Seider could play easily more than 22 minutes. Like 25. Then he would get some shifts against weak lines and produce more.

Also that 1st PP vs. 2nd PP difference is pretty big always for defencemen. Seider had 17 PP-points and Ghost 29p. 12 points more for Seider and something extra from ES too, and he is a 60-point guy, instead of 42p.

60-point guy at negotiations would have been 10M+ guy. But now he is 8.55M.

That's the Yzerman "miracle" and Lalonde being "terrible".

Seider magically putting up 29 powerplay points with more minutes just because Ghost did seems like a pretty big assumption to me

he was the #1 there two years ago and put up 15

 

[Winger98]

I think Seider could play easily more than 22 minutes. Like 25. Then he would get some shifts against weak lines and produce more.

Also that 1st PP vs. 2nd PP difference is pretty big always for defencemen. Seider had 17 PP-points and Ghost 29p. 12 points more for Seider and something extra from ES too, and he is a 60-point guy, instead of 42p.

60-point guy at negotiations would have been 10M+ guy. But now he is 8.55M.

That's the Yzerman "miracle" and Lalonde being "terrible".

Could seider have ate more minutes? Yeah, but would we have ran an even higher risk of gassing him? Yeah.

I don't think the Wings primary concern was trying to shave a million off Seider's future contract but to use him the best they could. They need him on the PK. They need him at ES. The one place they could limit his exposure a bit was on the power play. And even at ES last season he was carrying Walman through much of the season until Chiarot stepped in and actually played up to his contract.

If we didn't have Ed coming up, I bet we make a way harder pitch for Ghost this past summer and we see them maximizing Seider at ES and the PK again. Do we up his minutes anyway? Maybe, but it'd be at ES if we can find a partner who can run with him for those minutes.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Seider magically putting up 29 powerplay points with more minutes just because Ghost did seems like a pretty big assumption to me

he was the #1 there two years ago and put up 15

3 years ago the top line was Bertuzzi - Larkin -Rookie Raymond. Abd the team as a whole was way worse.

2 seasons ago he split pp1 duties with Hronek who started out the season on PP1 before demotion then trade.

Seider would have been a 20+ point guy on the power play if given pp1 last year, but we had Ghost who is a specialist. They maximized what Ghost could do by having him on there.

 

[Henkka]

3 years ago the top line was Bertuzzi - Larkin -Rookie Raymond. Abd the team as a whole was way worse.

2 seasons ago he split pp1 duties with Hronek who started out the season on PP1 before demotion then trade.

Seider would have been a 20+ point guy on the power play if given pp1 last year, but we had Ghost who is a specialist. They maximized what Ghost could do by having him on there.

Yeah, he already had 21 PP-points on his rookie season, and we saw the pure skill how is able to quarterback it. That was most of any Red Wings players, more than forwards.

It would not have been any surprise by developing the point-levels as clear 1st role from 21-25-29 points in 3 years.

 

[FlyguyOX]

Seider magically putting up 29 powerplay points with more minutes just because Ghost did seems like a pretty big assumption to me

he was the #1 there two years ago and put up 15

Yeah but Debrincat/kane wern't there. It was freaking Perron and Kubalik.

This whole notion that they needed a different PP1, resulting in sucking all offense out of Mo, was just idiotic. The fact it for some reason continues is insane.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

It's the only reasonable explanation, but risking your guys development with that kind of scheme is ridiculous.

I think the most reasonable explanation is, who else are you going to give the hardest minutes to as you're trying to win games?

I don't think there was some 4d chess going on with his usage to help his contract.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

3 years ago the top line was Bertuzzi - Larkin -Rookie Raymond. Abd the team as a whole was way worse.

2 seasons ago he split pp1 duties with Hronek who started out the season on PP1 before demotion then trade.

Seider would have been a 20+ point guy on the power play if given pp1 last year, but we had Ghost who is a specialist. They maximized what Ghost could do by having him on there.

Exactly. Seider was still second on the team among Dmen in PP TOI per game with 2:16. It's not like he was only playing 20 seconds.

They let Ghost eat up as many power play minutes as he could handle and basically gave Seider the rest so they could utilize him at ES and shorthanded.

 

[Henkka]

Exactly. Seider was still second on the team among Dmen in PP TOI per game with 2:16. It's not like he was only playing 20 seconds.

They let Ghost eat up as many power play minutes as he could handle and basically gave Seider the rest so they could utilize him at ES and shorthanded.

They also played together on the 1st PP for some stretch. So it wasn't that drastical control as Yzerman did for Hedman at Tampa. MA Bergreon played almost all the PP mins, or if Bergrenon wasn't there, they went with 5 forwards with the 1st unit. It was totally ridiculous on Hedman's contract years.

Hedman should have had Doughty's 11M contract etc. if he would have been collecting that PP production as 1st D-man. But he is still there at ~8M range.

When Brisebois became a GM, he didn't do this and Sergachev's salary went instantly out of hand versus comparables. He got higher salary than Hedman, the team salary structure was f***ed up, and they had to trade him away to Utah.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Isn't it funny to compare the gripes people had with Yzerman's handling of the Seider & Raymond contracts to the actual shitshow going on with Boston & Swayman?

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

It's very hard to credibly criticize the Wings' PP deployment of Seider last season when the team improved from 17th OA to 9th OA in PP effectiveness. tied with Florida for 6th most PPG just one less than Edmonton, two less than the Rangers.

Hedman's experience in TB is irrelevant. He didn't become the Hedman we know now until his fifth season when he was 23yo. Yzerman/coaching staff didn't artificially limit his production for second contract purposes, he just wasn't very good offensively his first three years. The only comparison to Seider's first three years is that he was more valuable to the team in a defensive role.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Isn't it funny to compare the gripes people had with Yzerman's handling of the Seider & Raymond contracts to the actual shitshow going on with Boston & Swayman?

People were in gripe mode before they were signed and now have nothing to gripe about.

 

[cvaicunas]

Seider magically putting up 29 powerplay points with more minutes just because Ghost did seems like a pretty big assumption to me

he was the #1 there two years ago and put up 15

I mean the PP was far worse two years ago. Now if you want to suggest the Ghost was a critical piece to elevating the PP last year, I mean I won't die on defending that idea. I think it was a combination of all the pieces in totality, that elevated the PP

 

[Henkka]

I think the power-play won't work at current form. Too many skill players. Don't think the point-man is a big problem, Seider is great at it.

But we need guys to win board battles to keep plays going on and exhausting the PK guys. Also some should be able to make effective screens.

Group of Larkin, DeBrincat, Raymond and Kane won't work. That's why there was Perron in the past and Compher took a role at last season. And DeBrincat did fall out after Kane jumped in. There's no place for 4 skill-only players.

Think it's time for Rasmussen to develop for this missing piece.

 

[kook10]

It's very hard to credibly criticize the Wings' PP deployment of Seider last season when the team improved from 17th OA to 9th OA in PP effectiveness. tied with Florida for 6th most PPG just one less than Edmonton, two less than the Rangers.

Exactly. The flipside is that our overall GA was 9th worst. We need our best D working on the D side. I think it's tunnel vision to fixate on getting points for Mo.

(and people seem to ignore that Mo had 6 shorties against - worst of all D)

 

[minimal]

In light of some comments in the Edvinsson thread: how do we feel about Seider's play so far this season? Three seasons removed from his rookie year now and it seems to me that we have yet to consistently see the version from that season. Any concern here, or does this fall on the coach's lap? I remember him playing with some bite and meanness in the preseason/beginning of this year, but now it only comes out in flashes when he's really bothered.

 

[norrisnick]

Mo is more than fine. Fans love extra bite but in many cases it doesn't really help the situation at hand.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Mo would benefit from having a better D corp around him. Too many plugs one player must fill.

 

[19 for president]

I would like to see some of the physicality and offensive rushes come back from his rookie year. With that said, Ed is the first partner he hasn't had to consistently bail out/ cover all the time. If they stay together, and some trust grows there, I think we'll see him open it up a bit more. Right now he is still somewhat playing the more defensive role on the pairing and they are still taking some of the hardest minutes in the NHL. With that said they are only 25 games in and a few of those were not together so I think we'll just continue to see the pair grow and get better.

I also think we'll see him open up a bit more with new coaching as well as I think Lalondes coaching a deployment has stunted him a bit.

He does need to improve on his pass vs shoot ratio on the PP if he wants to stay on PP1 long term. He's great at walking the line and keeping pucks in but he always second guesses his shot from the point. Sometimes you just need to get the puck on net. If your point man is never a shoot option its way easier to cheat those cross ice lanes and box those low guys out.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

In light of some comments in the Edvinsson thread: how do we feel about Seider's play so far this season? Three seasons removed from his rookie year now and it seems to me that we have yet to consistently see the version from that season. Any concern here, or does this fall on the coach's lap? I remember him playing with some bite and meanness in the preseason/beginning of this year, but now it only comes out in flashes when he's really bothered.

Mo stopped rushing the puck as much and stopped being as physical when Fester came on as coach. I think this team needs someone like Berube or Tocchett to make these guys play like they have a pair.

 

[saska sault]

In light of some comments in the Edvinsson thread: how do we feel about Seider's play so far this season? Three seasons removed from his rookie year now and it seems to me that we have yet to consistently see the version from that season. Any concern here, or does this fall on the coach's lap? I remember him playing with some bite and meanness in the preseason/beginning of this year, but now it only comes out in flashes when he's really bothered.

I think Mo has improved.. his point totals? The last 2 years they have been trying to be more competitive which puts Mo in a position to focus on keeping the puck out of our net. I don't know if he will ever have truly elite statistics but I can see him being a steady 60-65 point, shut down, minute eating 1st pairing for a very long time. He is one of the few bright spots and is often forced to play all his minutes against top compeption and be a top guy on offense also from the back end. The physical part? Unsure.. maybe being coached out of him for positioning, defensive structure?

 

[Winger98]

Personally, I don't mind if Mo loses position once in awhile if it means he's putting guys down. I also don't mind if he gets called for the occasional crosscheck if it means he's not getting called for five or six others he's dishing out around the net. What I don't like is seeing him roving around a bit too much and occasionally getting lost in coverage, but that's something most of the team has an issue with and part of it I chalk up to our (lack of) coaching.