Confirmed with Link: Seider signs (7 x $8.55m)

[Oddbob]

Mo's style changed with the add on of Lalonde and/or Boughner. Change them and we see the rookie Seider again.

 

[heyfolks]

In light of some comments in the Edvinsson thread: how do we feel about Seider's play so far this season? Three seasons removed from his rookie year now and it seems to me that we have yet to consistently see the version from that season. Any concern here, or does this fall on the coach's lap? I remember him playing with some bite and meanness in the preseason/beginning of this year, but now it only comes out in flashes when he's really bothered.

His contract is already a steal. A huge bargain for this stud D man.


The contracts/positions that require review are 1) Lalonde and 2) Yzerman.

 

[rawraw]

He is ranked #12 at hits/game among all players with 2.8 hits/game. His first two games of the season he had 15 hits combined. I don’t know if that can be attributed to adrenaline rush (first games of the season) or if the coaches told him to tone it down. I have a hard time believing the coaches don’t want that kind of physical presence on the blue line. He impacts the game much more when he is that physical, and I don’t remember him getting out of position to deliver those hits to start the season. Hope his physical game picks up again, it makes a big difference for our team when he is physically dominant out there.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I don't think hit stats are overly relevant in assessing a defensemen's physicality. There are tons of physical, smothering plays that defensemen make that may not necessarily be treated as "hits" but are super important. If you seal off a man quickly along the boards on a zone entry and cause him to cough up the puck, that is a super good and important use of physicality and an important play. The single biggest difference between Mo and Ed vs. Petry and Chiarot is the speed at which they close on the puck carrier. Seider is extremely good at this in the neutral and defensive zones.

I think the biggest difference with his play over the years is that he tries to do more with the puck than he did as a rookie. The game everyone fell in love with was a super-simple game. He isn't as clean, but he does do more (good and bad) with the puck and is more offensively impactful as a result.

 

[bradrob]

As someone who loves the defensive side of the game, I loved Seider's come up. I opted to only watch AHL games 2019-2020 because his game was electric.

He stopped break-ins consistently, always made the right play to break out of the zone, and played with a healthy amount of physicality. He continued that into his rookie year. His consistency in making the right play is why he was so good.

I'd love to see the stats on it, but his tape-to-tape passes in the D-Zone have to be sub 33%. If he had #46 on his back instead of #53, we would have strung him out to dry. He blocks shots and makes some hits but other than that I don't see many positives in his game right now.

Fire Lalonde. Save Seider. Something is wrong.

 

[HisNoodliness]

I just want to say that I don't get the negativity around Seider at all. I think that we've forgotten a lot of his warts as a rookie and are suffering from having projected him to keep improving at the same rate he had been. Over his first season, it felt like every game was better than the last. That obviously couldn't and hasn't continued. Lastly, he was clearly hurting earlier this year and it hurt his skating for ten games. I think he's more or less over that now.

I think that he's simplified his game and doesn't chase big hits as much. I think that he's a little less aggressive carrying the puck. The flip side has been that positionally he's gotten super strong and shuts everything down. He often leads our breakout, creates offensively, is a strong physical presence, and can shoulder the toughest minutes in the league. To me, Seider is trending from a top 15-30 defenseman in the league to a top 5-15 defenseman. After Hedman, I think he has a solid argument as the best defenseman in the league that doesn't fall in the small offensive, fast skater archetype.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I just want to say that I don't get the negativity around Seider at all. I think that we've forgotten a lot of his warts as a rookie and are suffering from having projected him to keep improving at the same rate he had been. Over his first season, it felt like every game was better than the last. That obviously couldn't and hasn't continued. Lastly, he was clearly hurting earlier this year and it hurt his skating for ten games. I think he's more or less over that now.

I think that he's simplified his game and doesn't chase big hits as much. I think that he's a little less aggressive carrying the puck. The flip side has been that positionally he's gotten super strong and shuts everything down. He often leads our breakout, creates offensively, is a strong physical presence, and can shoulder the toughest minutes in the league. To me, Seider is trending from a top 15-30 defenseman in the league to a top 5-15 defenseman. After Hedman, I think he has a solid argument as the best defenseman in the league that doesn't fall in the small offensive, fast skater archetype.

Agreed. And I think like with Ed, during a rookie season we tend to grade on a curve because they are an unknown and it's just so awesome to see them playing well.

 

[raymond23]

I think Mo read this thread before last game

 

[Chelis Chili]

Is there actually a plausible explanation why Mo's stats were the best in the rookie season? Was it rather assumed that he would get even better? Or did he focus more on defense?
After all, he could actually break 50 points this year if things continue like this.

PS: since McL he has 6 points in 6 (!), but no goal.

 

[SoupNazi]

Is there actually a plausible explanation why Mo's stats were the best in the rookie season?

Derek Lalonde.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Is there actually a plausible explanation why Mo's stats were the best in the rookie season? Was it rather assumed that he would get even better? Or did he focus more on defense?
After all, he could actually break 50 points this year if things continue like this.

He and the team very actively committed more to defense after that year. I think we all forget how much Seider roamed out of position and gave up rushes against chasing hits and points as a rookie. Lalonde coached that out of him completely. Plus he was tasked with keeping Chiraot and Walman's heads above water in the toughest minutes in the league. Because Chiarot and Walman refuse to play a defensive role, Seider was tasked with being the stay at home guy at even strength while those guys went chasing points. Now under McLellan we're seeing the aggression come back, but with more responsibility to back it up. It could be the best of both worlds.

It also seems like in the McLellan era, Chiarot and Petry are a lot less aggressive. I think they got a "you guys aren't the skilled players on this team. Simplify your game or you're getting waived" talk and they finally listened to it. It used to be Seider back defending a 2 on 1 after Chiarot carried the puck to the hash marks and passed it into someone's feet. Now it's Seider carrying the puck down, and when we lose it, he manages to get back and it's a 2 on 2 with Chiarot whom stayed at the blueline. That model really helps Seider unleash himself.

 

[norrisnick]

He and the team very actively committed more to defense after that year. I think we all forget how much Seider roamed out of position and gave up rushes against chasing hits and points as a rookie. Lalonde coached that out of him completely. Plus he was tasked with keeping Chiraot and Walman's heads above water in the toughest minutes in the league. Because Chiarot and Walman refuse to play a defensive role, Seider was tasked with being the stay at home guy at even strength while those guys went chasing points. Now under McLellan we're seeing the aggression come back, but with more responsibility to back it up. It could be the best of both worlds.

It also seems like in the McLellan era, Chiarot and Petry are a lot less aggressive. I think they got a "you guys aren't the skilled players on this team. Simplify your game or you're getting waived" talk and they finally listened to it. It used to be Seider back defending a 2 on 1 after Chiarot carried the puck to the hash marks and passed it into someone's feet. Now it's Seider carrying the puck down, and when we lose it, he manages to get back and it's a 2 on 2 with Chiarot whom stayed at the blueline. That model really helps Seider unleash himself.

Todd probably saw that clip of Chia explaining that he doesn't do anything to tailor his game to his partner and what happens happens, then let Ben know that shit won't fly.

 

[RedHawkDown]

He is revitalized under McLellan. Yet another player Lalonde tried his best to ruin.

As soon as the Wings have a competent 5v5 offense he'll be considered a top 10 defenseman in the NHL.

 

[Frk It]

Is there actually a plausible explanation why Mo's stats were the best in the rookie season? Was it rather assumed that he would get even better? Or did he focus more on defense?
After all, he could actually break 50 points this year if things continue like this.

PS: since McL he has 6 points in 6 (!), but no goal.

He has 158 pts in 256 games. Which works out to a pace of 50 pts per 82 games.

 

[Euro Twins]

He has 158 pts in 256 games. Which works out to a pace of 50 pts per 82 games.

286* games which is a 45 point pace. He hit 50 in his first year and 42 both seasons after.

He's on pace for 49. But currently under Todd he could break 50 if he continues to produce

 

[19 for president]

I feel like Seider is already deeply underrated on an overall NHL basis. He's a 50pt guy playing some of the hardest defensive minutes in the NHL and not flailing at it.

The minute we get a competent top 4 you'll really see his offensive game start to flourish. He tends towards more of a rover type offensive dman than a point shooter, so he has to be able to jump into players to be at his most effective. Its really hard to do that when you are getting every hard assignment and mostly defensive zone starts.

I think Lalonde definitely stifled him from a offensive creativity/ physical standpoint and you are already starting to see him emerge. Once he can get a few more "easy" minutes to go with the coach letting him play his full game more I think other people around the league will start to take notice.

He's great as the 3 on 3 dman because he likes to skate and jump into the play offensively. Right now he is limited 5 on 5 because I don't think there is a ton of trust there with anyone not name Ed, and if he is paired with Ed they are probably playing insanely hard minutes which aren't conducive to offense.

 

[Frk It]

286* games which is a 45 point pace. He hit 50 in his first year and 42 both seasons after.

He's on pace for 49. But currently under Todd he could break 50 if he continues to produce

Sheesh my eyes must be bad, lol.

My point was/is I am not worried about his point production. If you would have told me when we picked him he would put up a 45 point pace and play 24/25 minutes a night handling the toughest assignments, I would have done a backflip.

I think the main reason his point totals are down is the power play time hasn't been there as much. He may see an increase there until ASP is ready to handle that role.

 

[HisNoodliness]

He is revitalized under McLellan. Yet another player Lalonde tried his best to ruin.

As soon as the Wings have a competent 5v5 offense he'll be considered a top 10 defenseman in the NHL.

Best defenseman in the NHL off the top of my head:
1 Makar
2 Hedman
3 Hughes
4 Dahlin
5 Fox
6 Seider

Perhaps I'm a little behind the times on Hedman/Fox and ahead of the curve on Dahlin. I'm probably underrating a couple guys out West like Morissey and Theodore because I rarely watch them. And then there's solid arguments for some others. Werenski is definitely right there. I'm sure Oilers fans have Bouchard super high, Bruins love McAvoy, Stars fans secretly think Heiskanen is the best defenseman in the league and Habs fans openly think that Lane Hutson is the best defenseman ever (well besides Doug Harvey, Larry Robinson, Serge Savard and Guy Lapointe). So perhaps Seider at 6 is impacted by a bit of homerism and a bit of recency bias. Still in December, I said "to me, Seider is trending from a top 15-30 defenseman in the league to a top 5-15 defenseman." I wouldn't say trending anymore. He's right there in the "not quite a Norris contender" tier.

Now if we consider the word, I think that will take Detroit making the playoffs. You need the fans of other teams going "I hate Seider" in game 6 of a playoff series to get respect from the average fan around the league. On message boards they're probably writing "I'm sure Wings fans have Seider super high" while putting him 17 or whatever. I think it will stay that way even with an uptick in points- unless it's a really big uptick, of course.

 

[Frk It]

Best defenseman in the NHL off the top of my head:
1 Makar
2 Hedman
3 Hughes
4 Dahlin
5 Fox
6 Seider

Perhaps I'm a little behind the times on Hedman/Fox and ahead of the curve on Dahlin. I'm probably underrating a couple guys out West like Morissey and Theodore because I rarely watch them. And then there's solid arguments for some others. Werenski is definitely right there. I'm sure Oilers fans have Bouchard super high, Bruins love McAvoy, Stars fans secretly think Heiskanen is the best defenseman in the league and Habs fans openly think that Lane Hutson is the best defenseman ever (well besides Doug Harvey, Larry Robinson, Serge Savard and Guy Lapointe). So perhaps Seider at 6 is impacted by a bit of homerism and a bit of recency bias. Still in December, I said "to me, Seider is trending from a top 15-30 defenseman in the league to a top 5-15 defenseman." I wouldn't say trending anymore. He's right there in the "not quite a Norris contender" tier.

Now if we consider the word, I think that will take Detroit making the playoffs. You need the fans of other teams going "I hate Seider" in game 6 of a playoff series to get respect from the average fan around the league. On message boards they're probably writing "I'm sure Wings fans have Seider super high" while putting him 17 or whatever. I think it will stay that way even with an uptick in points- unless it's a really big uptick, of course.

I would put Heiskanen and Morrisey ahead of him for now, but I would still probably have Seider top 10.

(I would have to think about what other guys we are possibly missing)

 

[newfy]

Is there actually a plausible explanation why Mo's stats were the best in the rookie season? Was it rather assumed that he would get even better? Or did he focus more on defense?
After all, he could actually break 50 points this year if things continue like this.

PS: since McL he has 6 points in 6 (!), but no goal.

I don't think his stats really fell off all that much. But combine it with much harder minutes and developing his defensive game, they fell off a bit.

Seider was a better player last year than he was his rookie season, despite what stat watchers would tell you

 

[HisNoodliness]

I would put Heiskanen and Morrisey ahead of him for now, but I would still probably have Seider top 10.

(I would have to think about what other guys we are possibly missing)

Yeah, it's likely there's more guys that belong in my list of honorable mentions, and I know that my having Seider at 6 is about as high as he could go. How good is Shea Theodore this year? Seems good every time I see him. Top 10 good? I honestly don't know. How good is the best defenseman on Seattle? I have no idea- haven't seen him, couldn't tell you who it is off the top of my head.

I'm just happy that we're talking about Seider in this conversation about top ten defenseman. From the utter shock that Seider's face on draft night expressed for all of us to now has been such a fun ride with this guy. I can't wait to see where it goes.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Best defenseman in the NHL off the top of my head:
1 Makar
2 Hedman
3 Hughes
4 Dahlin
5 Fox
6 Seider

Perhaps I'm a little behind the times on Hedman/Fox and ahead of the curve on Dahlin. I'm probably underrating a couple guys out West like Morissey and Theodore because I rarely watch them. And then there's solid arguments for some others. Werenski is definitely right there. I'm sure Oilers fans have Bouchard super high, Bruins love McAvoy, Stars fans secretly think Heiskanen is the best defenseman in the league and Habs fans openly think that Lane Hutson is the best defenseman ever (well besides Doug Harvey, Larry Robinson, Serge Savard and Guy Lapointe). So perhaps Seider at 6 is impacted by a bit of homerism and a bit of recency bias. Still in December, I said "to me, Seider is trending from a top 15-30 defenseman in the league to a top 5-15 defenseman." I wouldn't say trending anymore. He's right there in the "not quite a Norris contender" tier.

Now if we consider the word, I think that will take Detroit making the playoffs. You need the fans of other teams going "I hate Seider" in game 6 of a playoff series to get respect from the average fan around the league. On message boards they're probably writing "I'm sure Wings fans have Seider super high" while putting him 17 or whatever. I think it will stay that way even with an uptick in points- unless it's a really big uptick, of course.

I think this is quite optimistic and I love Seider.

In addition to the 5 you listed, Werenski is currently having a Norris level season and has to be ranked above. Heiskanen too. Morrissey for sure. McAvoy, probably.

But he’s right there and he jsut needs to put up better numbers to pass a bunch of these guys.

 

[Oddbob]

Is there actually a plausible explanation why Mo's stats were the best in the rookie season? Was it rather assumed that he would get even better? Or did he focus more on defense?
After all, he could actually break 50 points this year if things continue like this.

PS: since McL he has 6 points in 6 (!), but no goal.

Lalonde is the answer. They obviously wanted to dumb down his game and make him a boring defensive only guy.

 

[FMichael]

Lalonde is the answer. They obviously wanted to dumb down his game and make him a boring defensive only guy.

Seems like it was for the entire team...'Low event' hockey was it?

Lalonde was simple a moron...

EDIT - 'simply'

 

[heyfolks]

Seems like it was for the entire team...'Low event' hockey was it?

Lalonde was simple a moron...