Buffalo Bills Season's End: The Off-Seasons Starts Now

[Dirty Dog]

I wonder if we're going to see a rule in the offseason preventing this sort of attempted disguise. It's clearly against the spirit of the rules.

I don’t really have an issue with it. It seems clever and I disagree it was meant to cause confusion, it just disguised the reporting process—so a team relying on visuals and not paying attention might make a mistake.

Allen here clearly made a (wrong) assumption rather than seeing who actually reported. And this was a blatant mistake, he wasn’t confused. And sound wasn’t an issue.

It appears a goof was made

 

[Dirty Dog]

Far be it from me to defend Allen, but I'm not sure how any video can prove that he didn't think it was #70 who reported eligible. It's a loud stadium - with the defense preparing for the game deciding play - it can be hard to pinpoint sound in that kind of environment. Which makes it extraordinarily stupid to try to get cute like that. ESPECIALLY when you know the ref is Brad Allen

But that’s not what Allen said happened. He didn’t mention noise being a factor or not being able to pinpoint who was talking to him. By his own account Skipper went up to him and reported, and the other didn’t. But everything appears to contradict that.

It appears that Allen just made a mistake. Nothing suggests he was confused, deafened by noise, or fooled by be ventriloquists!

 

[misterchainsaw]

I don’t really have an issue with it. It seems clever and I disagree it was meant to cause confusion, it just disguised the reporting process—so a team relying on visuals and not paying attention might make a mistake.

Allen here clearly made a (wrong) assumption rather than seeing who actually reported. And this was a blatant mistake, he wasn’t confused. And sound wasn’t an issue.

It appears a goof was made

I would call "disguising the reporting process" as trying to create confusion.

The defense has an explicit right to know who the eligible recievers are on any given play. That's why the reporting process exists. Any muddying of the waters of that process is attempting to create confusion as to who is eligible. You even say it yourself "a team not paying attention might make a mistake".

But that’s not what Allen said happened. He didn’t mention noise being a factor or not being able to pinpoint who was talking to him. By his own account Skipper went up to him and reported, and the other didn’t. But everything appears to contradict that.

It appears that Allen just made a mistake. Nothing suggests he was confused, deafened by noise, or fooled by be ventriloquists!

All three of them approached him. One of them reported verbally. He thought #70 did. It probably, in reality, was not #70, but that doesn't mean that Allen didn't think the verbalized reporting came from #70. If #70 doesn't also approach the referee I'd agree with you.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I would call "disguising the reporting process" as trying to create confusion.

The defense has an explicit right to know who the eligible recievers are on any given play. That's why the reporting process exists. Any muddying of the waters of that process is attempting to create confusion as to who is eligible. You even say it yourself "a team not paying attention might make a mistake".

Of course the defense has a right to know who is eligible. That’s the part where the officiating announces so-and-so reports as eligible, right?

They shouldn’t be relying on the reporting process at all and conversations they can’t hear. It seems very fair to muddy those waters. It’s basically trying to catch an opponent relying on the wrong thing.

All three of them approached him. One of them reported verbally. He thought #70 did. It probably, in reality, was not #70, but that doesn't mean that Allen didn't think the verbalized reporting came from #70. If #70 doesn't also approach the referee I'd agree with you.

I think we all agree Allen believed 70 reported to him. That’s not the issue. He probably saw him running in, and know he reported before, and just assumed it was 70 again.

But that’s the mistake. That’s on him. I don’t see how it’s on the lions to not have bodies around Allen so he can’t make a mistake. It’s the NFL, the reporting player isn’t always isolated from other players when reporting.

 

[Husko]

Far be it from me to defend Allen, but I'm not sure how any video can prove that he didn't think it was #70 who reported eligible. It's a loud stadium - with the defense preparing for the game deciding play - it can be hard to pinpoint sound in that kind of environment. Which makes it extraordinarily stupid to try to get cute like that. ESPECIALLY when you know the ref is Brad Allen

The player that he says didn't report came right up to him, talks to him for a period of time, and he even appears to nod to said player. The player Allen says reported is running onto the field and never gets closer to Allen than 68 ever is. I think you're giving Allen way too much benefit of the doubt here.

I would call "disguising the reporting process" as trying to create confusion.

The defense has an explicit right to know who the eligible recievers are on any given play. That's why the reporting process exists. Any muddying of the waters of that process is attempting to create confusion as to who is eligible. You even say it yourself "a team not paying attention might make a mistake".


All three of them approached him. One of them reported verbally. He thought #70 did. It probably, in reality, was not #70, but that doesn't mean that Allen didn't think the verbalized reporting came from #70. If #70 doesn't also approach the referee I'd agree with you.

I mean, the ref goes up to them and tells them AND announces it over the loudspeaker.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ultimately, the three of us arguing about this officiating call is bad for NFL. Regardless of who is right haha.

The league has to figure out how to make officiating less of a taking point

 

[Husko]

Ultimately, the three of us arguing about this officiating call is bad for NFL. Regardless of who is right haha.

The league has to figure out how to make officiating less of a taking point

Full time, trained, salaried officials instead of old men doing this as a hobby would be a good start.

 

[misterchainsaw]

The player that he says didn't report came right up to him, talks to him for a period of time, and he even appears to nod to said player. The player Allen says reported is running onto the field and never gets closer to Allen than 68 ever is. I think you're giving Allen way too much benefit of the doubt here.




I mean, the ref goes up to them and tells them AND announces it over the loudspeaker.

I think it's fair to point out that #70 is like a yard behind #68 (out of the picture because of the zoom, but certainly not that far away) - a bit to the right as well maybe.

Re: your last sentence, I just think that makes what Campbell was trying to do even stupider. Although I suppose there could be positioning implications if the defense doesn't find out until after they're lined up. Which again seems against the spirit of the rule - that the defense wouldn't know until a few seconds after the offense is lined up because they have to wait for the ref to tell them.

 

[misterchainsaw]

Of course the defense has a right to know who is eligible. That’s the part where the officiating announces so-and-so reports as eligible, right?

They shouldn’t be relying on the reporting process at all and conversations they can’t hear. It seems very fair to muddy those waters. It’s basically trying to catch an opponent relying on the wrong thing.



I think we all agree Allen believed 70 reported to him. That’s not the issue. He probably saw him running in, and know he reported before, and just assumed it was 70 again.

But that’s the mistake. That’s on him. I don’t see how it’s on the lions to not have bodies around Allen so he can’t make a mistake. It’s the NFL, the reporting player isn’t always isolated from other players when reporting.

We're going to have to agree to disagree if you don't think it was an intentional tactic to try to deceive the defense. The reporting process generally involves both a verbal and a visible signal by reports I saw, so it's not as if the verbal part is the only thing the defense can pick up on. The defense, by the spirit of the rule, should know who the eligible receivers are the instant the offense is lined up. The Lions are trying to delay that by muddying the waters. '- by Allen's own words the defense was not told until after they were lined up #70 was eligible.

And both tackles as well as the guy who had reported as eligible multiple times in the game going 15 yards away from the huddle to approach the official (on the far side from their sideline, no less) is not a coincidence. The official is usually not in the usual substitution path by design, you kind of have to go out of your way to approach him.

 

[NotABadPeriod]

So here's my understanding of what happened:

68 clearly reports to the ref. Ref announces 70 though as the lineman who reported. Campbell apparently told the refs before the game he had this play in mind where 68 would be reporting as eligible.

Ref may have been confused because 70 had reported as eligible several times during the game, or there were multiple players disguising who was reporting and this confused the ref, or he was just an idiot. Maybe if the Lions only had 68 approach the ref this wouldn't have happened, but it's clear the ref goofed. When he announces as eligible, did the Lions realize there was a mistake and try to correct it? Do they have a responsibility to do so?

Lions got hosed, but I don't think it's too farfetched to suggest they didn't help their case with the attempted subterfuge.

 

[Dirty Dog]

We're going to have to agree to disagree if you don't think it was an intentional tactic to try to decieve the defense. The reporting process generally involves both a verbal and a visible signal by reports I saw, so it's not as if the verbal part is the only thing the defense can pick up on. The defense, by the spirit of the rule, should know who the eligible recievers are the instant the offense is lined up. The Lions are trying to delay that by muddying the waters. '- by Allen's own words the defense was not told until after they were lined up #70 was eligible.

Of course it’s meant to deceive the defense. Skipper is running in at the same time Decker is reporting. But it’s not meant to deceive the official. And it should not have deceived the official. It looks like Allen just made a mistake…not that he was deceived or deafened or confused.

And both tackles as well as the guy who had reported as eligible multiple times in the game going 15 yards away from the huddle to approach the official (on the far side from their sideline, no less) is not a coincidence.

I understand that. I don’t think you’re seeing what our criticism is. The ways the lions intended to deceive the defense should not have had any impact on Allen. Decker went straight up to Allen and reported to him. That should be the end of it. But a mistake was made.


Basically this:

Defense making a mistake because they aren’t paying enough attention = acceptable.

Officiating making a mistake because they aren’t paying enough attention = not acceptable.

 

[misterchainsaw]

Of course it’s meant to deceive the defense. Skipper is running in at the same time Decker is reporting. But it’s not meant to deceive the official. And it should not have deceived the official. It looks like Allen just made a mistake…not that he was deceived or deafened or confused.



I understand that. I don’t think you’re seeing what our criticism is. The ways the lions intended to deceive the defense should not have had any impact on Allen. Decker went straight up to Allen and reported to him. That should be the end of it. But a mistake was made.

Then we completely disagree on it being against the spirit of the rules. The defense has the right to know immediately who the eligible recievers are, and going out of their way to report to the official is part of that mechanism. For a defense that's paying attention, the official's announcing it should just be confirmation, because generally speaking they're going to have to decide how they want to align themselves based on who's eligible on offense before the announcement comes.
Allen even says that the defense was already lined up here when #70 is declared eligible by the official - that's too late.

Of course it’s meant to deceive the defense. Skipper is running in at the same time Decker is reporting. But it’s not meant to deceive the official. And it should not have deceived the official. It looks like Allen just made a mistake…not that he was deceived or deafened or confused.



I understand that. I don’t think you’re seeing what our criticism is. The ways the lions intended to deceive the defense should not have had any impact on Allen. Decker went straight up to Allen and reported to him. That should be the end of it. But a mistake was made.


Basically this:

Defense making a mistake because they aren’t paying enough attention = acceptable.

Officiating making a mistake because they aren’t paying enough attention = not acceptable.

Oh the ref certainly f***ed up. Brad Allen is the worst of a bad bunch of officiating crews.

But play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

 

[Husko]

So here's my understanding of what happened:

68 clearly reports to the ref. Ref announces 70 though as the lineman who reported. Campbell apparently told the refs before the game he had this play in mind where 68 would be reporting as eligible.

Ref may have been confused because 70 had reported as eligible several times during the game, or there were multiple players disguising who was reporting and this confused the ref, or he was just an idiot. Maybe if the Lions only had 68 approach the ref this wouldn't have happened, but it's clear the ref goofed. When he announces as eligible, did the Lions realize there was a mistake and try to correct it? Do they have a responsibility to do so?

Lions got hosed, but I don't think it's too farfetched to suggest they didn't help their case with the attempted subterfuge.

I think this is a good summation. And then the cherry on top is Allen just outright lying about what happened in the postgame pool interview (which happens over an hour after the game after the ref has had the chance to review replay). That, IMO, is completely inexcusable and should be grounds for him being fired tomorrow (he won't be).

 

[Dubi Doo]

Im really intrigued to see how D Jones does today? Im assuming he'll be on a lower snap count. Do we have any examples of players coming back from pec injuries, and how they performed after?

 

[Mike McDermott]

Full time, trained, salaried officials instead of old men doing this as a hobby would be a good start.

I’ve been saying this for as long as I can remember. With as much money as the league makes there is no reason to not have full time, year round referees.

The refs schedule should be something like:
2-3 week long “training camp” in the off season. Going in depth on changes in the rules, highlighting opportunities etc.
In season
Work game day
Next two days off
Two days of review of their previous game, and other keys points from all games that week
A day to travel to their next game
A day to prep and be ready before the game in that city

 

[ValJamesDuex]

We are off to the game now (Overcast, mid 30's, snow showers later). Hope at the end of the day the Bill's are in the playoffs.

SalC's Keys to the game

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/sports/bills/capaccio-patriots-at-bills-sals-keys-notes-and-stats1

 

[buffa dud]

Here's another article detailing what happened to the Lions last night, and why the entire NFL and NFL-fanbase has a legitimate case against Allen:

Refs' wild penalty call on Lions' two-point try affects 49ers' playoff picture

A controversially overturned two-point attempt at the end of the Cowboys' win over the Lions on Saturday night had significant implications on the 49ers' bid for the NFC's No. 1 playoff seed.

sports.yahoo.com

And I personally am borderline on accusing the officials of malfeasance, because there was another call that I thought was highly suspect given the timing. Late in the fourth (I believe), Goff was targeting Amon Ra St Brown in a 3rd and 5 situation. A Cowboy DB was draped ALL OVER Brown, and I want to say the replay showed an official staring down the interaction between the two. Even Buck and Romo were critical of the non-call. I want to see if I can find a replay on it, just to make sure I have my facts right, but that to me screamed GMC (game-managing call).

 

[TehDoak]

Official prediction:

The Patriots have been using a swing pass to Eliot as an check down for Zappe a lot. (Eliot caught 9 passes last week vs the Broncos, and most of them were this swing pass).

Someone from the Buffalo's defense is going to jump that route and run one back today.

I actually think we might see multiple defensive TDs today. New England's O-line didn't have to face Jones or Oliver last time, now they have to face them both. I'm calling one pick six and one scoop and score. I think today is going to be an ugly one for NE.

 

[Mike McDermott]

Here's another article detailing what happened to the Lions last night, and why the entire NFL and NFL-fanbase has a legitimate case against Allen:

Refs' wild penalty call on Lions' two-point try affects 49ers' playoff picture

A controversially overturned two-point attempt at the end of the Cowboys' win over the Lions on Saturday night had significant implications on the 49ers' bid for the NFC's No. 1 playoff seed.

sports.yahoo.com

And I personally am borderline on accusing the officials of malfeasance, because there was another call that I thought was highly suspect given the timing. Late in the fourth (I believe), Goff was targeting Amon Ra St Brown in a 3rd and 5 situation. A Cowboy DB was draped ALL OVER Brown, and I want to say the replay showed an official staring down the interaction between the two. Even Buck and Romo were critical of the non-call. I want to see if I can find a replay on it, just to make sure I have my facts right, but that to me screamed GMC (game-managing call).

I’m fairly certain the play you are talking about is what made me post this message….

Dallas is getting away with so much in pass defense tonight.

I had been seeing Dallas’ secondary all over Detroit’s receivers all game and the play I’m pretty sure you are referring to was just insanely blatantly missed.

 

[oldgoalie]

Von Miller is inactive for today?
WTF.

 

[Zman5778]

Von Miller is inactive for today?
WTF.

Not a shock. He's been terribly ineffective since coming back.

 

[My Cozen Dylan]

Von Miller is inactive for today?
WTF.

Good, he hasn't earned playing time.

 

[Husko]

Absolutely hate them making Linval inactive. There’s no rule saying we can only have one run stuffing 1-tech at a time. Feels like a very undeserving benching. Don’t get their fascination with settle at all

 

[Ace]

Von Miller is inactive for today?
WTF.

It’s more surprising to learn Von Miller has been active this season

 

[NotABadPeriod]

Absolutely hate them making Linval inactive. There’s no rule saying we can only have one run stuffing 1-tech at a time. Feels like a very undeserving benching. Don’t get their fascination with settle at all

I think what's interesting is Ford is active over Joseph. Ford did have a good game last week, so maybe they're rewarding him?