Toggle sidebar

Confirmed with Link: Sean Walker & 5th round pick ('26) traded to Colorado for 1st round pick ('25 - top 10 protected) & Ryan Johansen - Johansen assigned to Lehigh Valley

How Do You Grade The Trade?

  • Total voters
    150
Redpath said:
In the span of 9 months the Flyers targeted a cap dump (As part of a separate largely positive deal) and turned him into a 1st round pick, all at the expense of leveraging their cap space to take on a new 1 year cap dump.

That is exactly what squeezing out value is.
Click to expand...

No, first they tried to re-sign him and then only moved on when he wanted too much. Process. Not results. Why and how they go about their machinations tells you the most about future moves.

P.S. If you’ve managed to remove Cal Petersen from the face of the earth, please do call it into the league.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ironmanrulez, Audible Velvet, VladDrag and 2 others
JojoTheWhale said:
No, first they tried to re-sign him and then only moved on when he wanted too much. Process. Not results. Why and how they go about their machinations tells you the most.

P.S. If you’ve managed to remove Cal Petersen from the face of the earth, please do call it into the league.
Click to expand...

A) That doesn't negate anything I said

B) Actually, I'd say it's a good thing to merely talk to one of your UFAs about a potential contract on the off-chance he can be had for a bargain

C) They tried so hard to re-sign him that they didn't. They evidently valued a 1st round pick over re-signing him to too much. That would be a good process.
 
Lindberg said:
You decided to throw out the example, now you want to walk away from it because it is convenient for you to do so. Not the least bit surprising but whatever.
Click to expand...

I really lack the taste for bad faith discussions. Walk away? I just explained to you how the Knights built the backbone of their team with players/assets acquired in non-major moves. You just chose to ignore it. Forget just assets, why do you think Stone and Eichel and Pietrangelo even wanted to go to the Knights? Could it have been a cascading effect from winning so many smaller moves? Speaking of walking away in convenience, I also said it's a unique example and teams like Dallas and Carolina are more accurate templates at what the Flyers want to do but can't. An important note: winning and getting lucky in the margins are intertwined.

Lindberg said:
Boston? The team that decided to go off the board in 2015? Yeah.... talk about "winning in the margins there".
Click to expand...

So, trading the recent 15th overall pick for Stone is a "big move" but blowing 13th-15th in a historic draft are "marginal" moves now? You're not keeping your story straight.

But I want to thank you for proving my point without even knowing it. I don't find it a predictable model to follow, but how did a team do that and have the greatest regular season in history a handful of years later? Do you need a hint?
 
  • Like
  • Wow
  • Love
Reactions: Ironmanrulez, kudymen, Hollywood Cannon and 3 others
Redpath said:
In the span of 9 months the Flyers targeted a cap dump (As part of a separate largely positive deal) and turned him into a 1st round pick, all at the expense of leveraging their cap space to take on a new 1 year cap dump.

That is exactly what squeezing out value is.
Click to expand...

Petersen hasn't been made into a 1st
 
Redpath said:
A) That doesn't negate anything I said

B) Actually, I'd say it's a good thing to merely talk to one of your UFAs about a potential contract an the off-chance he can be had for a bargain

C) They tried so hard to re-sign him that they didn't. They evidently valued a 1st round pick over re-signing him to too much. That would be a good process.
Click to expand...

Fandom is a mental illness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ironmanrulez
Magua said:
I really lack the taste for bad faith discussions. Walk away? I just explained to you how the Knights built the backbone of their team with players/assets acquired in non-major moves. You just chose to ignore it. Forget just assets, why do you think Stone and Eichel and Pietrangelo even wanted to go to the Knights? Could it have been a cascading effect from winning so many smaller moves? Speaking of walking away in convenience, I also said it's a unique example and teams like Dallas and Carolina are more accurate templates at what the Flyers want to do but can't. An important note: winning and getting lucky in the margins are intertwined.



So, trading the recent 15th overall pick for Stone is a "big move" but blowing 13th-15th in a historic draft are "marginal" moves now? You're not keeping your story straight.

But I want to thank you for proving my point without even knowing it. I don't find it a predictable model to follow, but how did a team do that and have the greatest regular season in history a handful of years later? Do you need a hint?
Click to expand...

To be fair, the Flyers would never want to be so dishonest and unfair as Carolina. They want to be the Islanders by way of the Blues. Leaving a trail of fairness and joy as they go.
 
  • Like
  • Wow
  • Haha
Reactions: Ironmanrulez, Amorgus and Magua
Magua said:
I really lack the taste for bad faith discussions. Walk away? I just explained to you how the Knights built the backbone of their team with players/assets acquired in non-major moves. You just chose to ignore it. Forget just assets, why do you think Stone and Eichel and Pietrangelo even wanted to go to the Knights? Could it have been a cascading effect from winning so many smaller moves? Speaking of walking away in convenience, I also said it's a unique example and teams like Dallas and Carolina are more accurate templates at what the Flyers want to do but can't. An important note: winning and getting lucky in the margins are intertwined.



So, trading the recent 15th overall pick for Stone is a "big move" but blowing 13th-15th in a historic draft are "marginal" moves now? You're not keeping your story straight.

But I want to thank you for proving my point without even knowing it. I don't find it a predictable model to follow, but how did a team do that and have the greatest regular season in history a handful of years later? Do you need a hint?
Click to expand...

Vegas built their team off the expansion draft and not due to trades. Vegas is the outlier here for expansion teams and their drafting conditions were far more equitable to them than previously. Teams wised up in regards to dealing with Seattle. Florida gifted Marchessault to Vegas, Minnesota gifted Tuch to Vegas, and Anaheim gifted Theodore as well. Perhaps I should dig up what people said about Vegas at the draft (I don't actually have time or care to do so).

Blowing the 13th to 15th picks were disastrous but Boston recovered well because they didn't waste cap space, picks, prospects and such on 2nd/3rd rate players.

By your definition Colorado has completely screwed up winning in the margins as of late. They traded for RyJo and then had to ship him off with a 1st attached to him for Sean Walker. "Winning in the margins" is not relevant. It's about not screwing up continuously with bad decision after bad decision.

Talk about a bad faith discussion....
 
Last edited:
Some great stuff by Danny B today, hope we can get another 1st for Laughton somehow, but I doubt they do it for less.

Huge loss on the back end, hopefully some of the guys are ready to step up more than they already have.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Devonator
Redpath said:
Okay, then the Flyers correctly identified an undervalued top 4 defenseman and subsequently used their cap space to flip him for a 1st. Good process.
Click to expand...

Did they, though? Because that isn't what they said. Didn't they say they were just as surprised about it as anyone?

Contrast that with Colorado being thrilled about picking up NAK and being able to speak immediately about how they'd watched tape on him and he has more than Philly got, with some specific discourse about his traits and how they'd fit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ironmanrulez
Lindberg said:
Vegas built their team off the expansion draft and not due to trades. Vegas is the outlier here for expansion teams and their drafting conditions were far more equitable to them than previously. Teams wised up in regards to dealing with Seattle. Florida gifted Marchessault to Vegas, Minnesota gifted Tuch to Vegas, and Anaheim gifted Theodore as well. Perhaps I should dig up what people said about Vegas at the draft (I don't actually have time or care to do so).

Blowing the 13th to 15th picks were disastrous but Boston recovered well because they didn't waste cap space, picks, prospects and such on 2nd/3rd rate players.

By your definition Colorado has completely screwed up winning in the margins as of late. They paid a pick for RyJo and then had to ship him off with a 1st attached to him for Sean Walker. "Winning in the margins" is not relevant. It's about not screwing up continuously with bad decision after bad decision.

Talk about a bad faith discussion....
Click to expand...

1.) Vegas made a ton of trades at the expansion draft. Being "gifted" players by bad GMs doesn't void the argument. I'm over discussing Vegas. You won't talk about Dallas or Carolina because you have nothing to debate. I'm not even saying it's a good strategy!

2.) "They didn't waste cap space, picks, prospects and such on 2nd/3rd rate players" -- there's a phrase I'm looking for to describe this.....also they kind of did at times. My point was they built their core without premium assets. It's not a good model. It's just a slim possibility the Flyers make less possible, while clinging to the possibility.

3.) "By your definition Colorado has completely screwed up winning in the margins as of late." Yes, actually. The Flyers say they won't be built like Colorado, so Colorado really isn't relevant. But they've made a lot of weird moves since winning and have also been paying the piper for going all in previously. Certainly, they killed it in buy lows previously.

*************

I don't know what we are even arguing at this point -- litigating half the league, when all I said was the Flyers are neither winning large moves or marginal moves -- and I think you have less of an idea so, I'm all good to quite while we're behind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ironmanrulez, kudymen and BernieParent
Beef Invictus said:
Did they, though? Because that isn't what they said. Didn't they say they were just as surprised about it as anyone?

Contrast that with Colorado being thrilled about picking up NAK and being able to speak immediately about how they'd watched tape on him and he has more than Philly got, with some specific discourse about his traits and how they'd fit.
Click to expand...

So they didn't view him as a cap dump, but they are also surprised that he turned into a top 4 defenseman. Want to meet in the middle and say they viewed him as a bottom pair defenseman when they acquired him?

A process that takes on a bottom pair defenseman, let's him play himself into a top 4 defenseman, sells high on him at the deadline, and weaponizes cap space to get maximum value would be...a good process.
 
Redpath said:
So they didn't view him as a cap dump, but they are also surprised that he turned into a top 4 defenseman. Want to meet in the middle and say they viewed him as a bottom pair defenseman when they acquired him?

A process that takes on a bottom pair defenseman, let's him play himself into a top 4 defenseman, sells high on him at the deadline, and weaponizes cap space to get maximum value would be...a good process.
Click to expand...

It's a good process if its deliberate. If they meant to do it. They entire thing has been ad hoc and I strongly suspect that if Walker reduces his contract ask then he's still a Flyer and not a pick.

It all seems really accidental and bad-processy. The result is fine this time, but it sure feels a lot like they didn't mean to get here until they arrived.
 
Magua said:
1.) Vegas made a ton of trades at the expansion draft. Being "gifted" players by bad GMs doesn't void the argument. I'm over discussing Vegas.

2.) "They didn't waste cap space, picks, prospects and such on 2nd/3rd rate players" -- there's a phrase I'm looking for to describe this.....

3.) "By your definition Colorado has completely screwed up winning in the margins as of late." Yes, actually. The Flyers say they won't be built like Colorado, so Colorado really isn't relevant. But they've made a lot of weird moves since winning and have also been paying the piper for going all in previously. Certainly, they killed it in buy lows previously.

*************

I don't know what we are even arguing at this point -- litigating half the league, when all I said was the Flyers are neither winning large moves or marginal moves -- and I think you have less of an idea so, I'm all good to quite while we're behind.
Click to expand...

Maybe i'm mistaken but weren't you the one who brought up Vegas?

So you just randomly apply "winning in the margins" as a term you see fit when it is convenient for you to do so? That's pretty convenient I must admit.

Colorado and Flyers are the teams we are discussing. You brought up the other ones.

I'm done here as well.
 
Beef Invictus said:
It's a good process if its deliberate. If they meant to do it. They entire thing has been ad hoc and I strongly suspect that if Walker reduces his contract ask then he's still a Flyer and not a pick.

It all seems really accidental and bad-processy. The result is fine this time, but it sure feels a lot like they didn't mean to get here until they arrived.
Click to expand...

Maybe finding Walker was accidental. Maximizing his trade value was not. Good process. Certainly not the same process.
 
Redpath said:
Maybe finding Walker was accidental. Maximizing his trade value was not. Good process. Certainly not the same process.
Click to expand...

See, I don't think they did maximize his value. Hence the C grade I assigned.

I'm not sure why you want to crow about the process being great when the process entailed trying their hardest to sign and keep him, at the same time as they were signing Seeler to a ridiculous length. That doesn't make sense.

The move is fine. Let's not pretend it's more than it is, or that it shows this group has changed its approach to management.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kudymen and Larry44
Although I’m typically on the spectrum for flyers moves, this one leaves me in a neutral state. I don’t think this trade was made to validate a rebuild having multiple 1st round picks. I don’t believe the flyers brass is being fully honest with their plans; mainly due to the fact we’re talking about 2 years + whatever developmental time it takes for that pick to make it to the NHL when we only have 2 centers under the age of 25 in Frost and Poehling who will be looking for long-term deals next go-around. We don’t have many prospects who can fill any voids either. I don’t think we own this pick come 2025 draft and I think that’s the intention of getting it. I’m neutral until we see how it’s used in a trade to make the flyers more of a contender maybe next year or even the following.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Amorgus and Strawberry Fields
Beef Invictus said:
See, I don't think they did maximize his value. Hence the C grade I assigned.

I'm not sure why you want to crow about the process being great when the process entailed trying their hardest to sign and keep him, at the same time as they were signing Seeler to a ridiculous length. That doesn't make sense.

The move is fine. Let's not pretend it's more than it is, or that it shows this group has changed its approach to management.
Click to expand...

I mean sure, you can think that if you want. That doesn't make it true. Tanev was reported to have required a cap dump going back to get a 1st. And Tanev is the more proven commodity over Walker. Not sure what you think maximum value for Walker would have been given the reported market.

I'm on the first page of the Seeler thread knocking that signing. But in terms of process, selling high on Walker for a 1st outweighs retaining a depth defenseman.

Please let me know when the process of this management has ever entailed taking on a player, letting him bloat his value, selling high on him, and weaponizing the cap to get back the highest value for him. Insane to pretend that isn't a change in management's approach.
 
  • Like
Reactions: renberg
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Top Bottom