Blue Jays Discussion: Save some runs for the other games, guys. (Jays score team record 28 runs in Friday night drubbing of Red Sox. Yes, that says 28. In one game)

[trellaine201]

I say Groshans for sure, the oldest.

 

[Blitzkrug]

You say you wouldn't trade Moreno or Tiedemann but if a guy like Shohei was on the table (I don't think he is, probably just the Angels doing their diligence to see if there's a mega deal out there) they can have them plus whoever the f*** else they want.

I wouldn't hesitate to include both in a package for Soto either provided it comes with an extension..

Big game hunting requires big ammo as the Padres are likely about to demonstrate.

My expectations are a bit more realistic as much as I would love a tsunami move like the above. A decent starting pitcher and preferably a bullpen arm are enough for me to declare a win.

 

[trellaine201]

plus the jays aren’t gonna offer Soto $500M. And i would doubt he would commit to TO anyways. Pessimist for sure but realist to sometimes

 

[stats1]

Moreno is 5th according to MLB

He’s #1 updated on BA

 

[stats1]

I rather roll with Cavan and Tapia then pay a Groshans type prospect plus more for Happ.

I like Happ but someone on another board said something that I totally agreed with. If you’re in then you’re totally in. If you’re buying it should be for the best. There’s no reason why we gotta settle for Ian Happ at a cheaper price when the prices are already high. If I’m paying a high prospect for Happ…I should pay the total package for Soto. Like to me Happ is a nice get but I’ll be pissed if we give up a big piece for him

 

[stats1]

From that pic it says we’ve offered Biggio and Tiedemann. Never mentions Moreno…., trust me Moreno Tiedemann plus would entice Washington

Moreno, Tiedemann, Biggio, Groshans, Martinez. Who beats that

 

[stats1]

From that pic it says we’ve offered Biggio and Tiedemann. Never mentions Moreno…., trust me Moreno Tiedemann plus would entice Washington

Moreno, Tiedemann, Biggio, Groshans, Martinez. Who beats that

You’d have Soto, Springer (when healthy) Vladdy, Bichette, Hernandez, Chapman, Kirk. I mean that top 7 is amazing. Although Bichette’s shine is starting to rub off

 

[stats1]

Ohtani post game. “Regardless of where I’m playing, I’m going to give my all.” I’m with the Angels right now and I’m very thankful. I love my team and teammates. Right now I’m an Angel and that’s all I can focus on.

This dude sounds like he’s just sounding the party lines. I gotta say Moreno is a terrible owner. Absolutely crazy he’s going to waste the talent he has cause he makes money for him. This is why I don’t feel bad for Trout.

 

[stats1]

Ohtani post game. “Regardless of where I’m playing, I’m going to give my all.” I’m with the Angels right now and I’m very thankful. I love my team and teammates. Right now I’m an Angel and that’s all I can focus on.

This dude sounds like he’s just sounding the party lines. I gotta say Moreno is a terrible owner. Absolutely crazy he’s going to waste the talent he has cause he makes money for him. This is why I don’t feel bad for Trout. Trout got mega bucks and I don’t blame him but I guarantee he and his agents had no talks on the future of the team. The dude has a spin injury now and knows he’s guaranteed 400 mil

 

[stats1]

And Don’t tell me this spine injury came up all of a sudden. Trout has had injuries going back years ago. He’s just a super athlete so you never hear about it. I hope Ohtani gets traded to a better organization that will not just use him for market and money but to win games! Come to Toronto!

 

[VanillaCoke]

The chance to add Shohei is too good to pass up idk if id care who we sent to anaheim.

Except Kirk. He stays forever.

 

[Bjindaho]

If Shap and Atkins bring us a title in the next year or so. You'd have to consider them on the same tier as Bobby/Masai.

I dont think you understand what Masai has done.

He built a perennial top 4 team in the East, made a big trade to push them over the top, lost his best player in FA, then his second from the title run.

The Raps missed the playoffs in 2012-2013 and 2020-2021 (that year was due to major injuries to the starters) but haven't finished lower than 5th in the East in any other year.

 

[Puckstuff]

Contrary to our needs, between Ohtani and Soto, give me Soto. Soto is the best hitter in the world in my opinion or top 3. Generational talent. He's a Manny Ramirez/David Ortitz level talent of our generation. Better then Vlad which is crazy. Only Harper has a better wrc+ over the last 3 years.

Springer, Soto, Kirk, Gurrerro, Hernandez is a ridiculous top 5 followed by Gurriel/Jansen Bichette, Chapman, and Biggio/Espinal.

1) Springer
2) Soto
3) Gurrerro
4) Hernandez
5) Kirk (dh/c)
6) Gurriel Jr. (dh/4th of/Jansen (dh/c)
7) Chapman
8) Bichette
9) Biggio/Espinal

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I dont think you understand what Masai has done.

He built a perennial top 4 team in the East, made a big trade to push them over the top, lost his best player in FA, then his second from the title run.

The Raps missed the playoffs in 2012-2013 and 2020-2021 (that year was due to major injuries to the starters) but haven't finished lower than 5th in the East in any other year.

In a vacuum, it is true to say that what Masai has done is impressive. He won. I think the NBA is a little bit of a different beast though, and the lack of parity make Ujiri's accomplishments leading up the championship seem less impressive.

In the NBA, if you are not a top 5 team in your conference and can't make it out of the first round, you are not really a competitor (or you choked/got hurt bad/etc.). It is fairly consistent in that regard, and you could even argue it extends to the semi-finals as well. I mean the formula has been the same for the last like 2 decades, and the hard part is finding the rare talents to properly satisfy that formula (something Masai was able to do with the Leonard trade). The rest mostly just comes down to players and coaches executing and stupid luck; something the Raptors definitely had at various points in their Championship run.

Whereas in the NHL, we consistently see powerhouse teams go out in the first round, and complete underdogs make it further than expected. You do not only need to execute the formula, but you also need to figure out what works in the first place... Because every year, it seems like teams are doing it in a fairly different way with very little overlap. MLB is fairly similar to the NHL as well, given how few teams make it up until recently, and how there is such a thin margin for error in the game as a whole that in a pool of very talented teams (like the playoffs), there is probably not a huge difference between the teams like you see early on in an NBA playoffs.

Ultimately, I think anyone who brings a championship to Toronto is going to be held in fairly high regard. The guy who can bring a Stanley Cup here will be held in the highest regard for obvious reasons, but I think MLB and NBA are on similar footing in terms of fervor in Toronto following that; above any other league/team in Toronto. It will come down to who can win more Championships and build a better dynasty, and right now, that is Masai. If Blue Jays match that with a Championship this year, then they are on level-footing again... But man even one Cup for the Leafs will probably result in the first multi-day spectacle for a Championship win.

 

[Puckstuff]

The chance to add Shohei is too good to pass up idk if id care who we sent to anaheim.

Except Kirk. He stays forever.

Not that I want to move Kirk but I'd easily sell high and trade Kirk for Ohtani. Jansen/Moreno at catcher is 80 % of Kirk offensively (probably better then 80 % soon if Moreno is as advertised) + better defensively and you get Ohtani who replaces Kirk's bat and you get a top of the rotation starter. That is a no brainer.

Kirk = 4-5 WAR ?

Ohtani + Moreno playing = 9-10 war.

1) Springer
2) Ohtani
3) Gurrerro
4) Hernandez
5) Chapman
6) Gurriel Jr.
7) Bichette
8) Moreno/Jansen
9) Biggio/Espinal


1) Manoah
2) Gausman
3) Ohtani
4) Berrios
5) Stripling
6) Kikuchi

 

[Habs10Habs]

I dont think you understand what Masai has done.

He built a perennial top 4 team in the East, made a big trade to push them over the top, lost his best player in FA, then his second from the title run.

The Raps missed the playoffs in 2012-2013 and 2020-2021 (that year was due to major injuries to the starters) but haven't finished lower than 5th in the East in any other year.

Actually I fully understand what Masai has done. There is a reason why he is respected as one of the best if not the best in his field. Finding Freddy, obtaining Siakam with a low first rd pick. Knowing when to change coaches (ballsy move). Going against the experts and choosing Barnes.

But don't for one second believe that he didn't have a lot of luck involved as well.

1. Comes in and decides to rebuild the team around DD. Trades Gay, and has a deal with New York for Kyle Lowry. Which falls through at the last moment. Do you believe the team would have advanced as quickly without Lowry leading the way?

2. Has a top 3 player (Leonard) fall into his lap. Who under normal circumstances. Would probably never have a chance at.

3. Wins the Philadelphia series on probably the most fluke shot in the history of basketball. Would the Leonard trade look as well if we had lost again in the 2nd rd?

4. Faces Golden State in the finals. Only to have them lose Durant and Thompson. I'm not a betting man, but I don't like the Raptors chances, if they're both healthy.

While Shap/Atkins joined an older team with a weak farm system. Turning the team into one of the best in baseball. While improving our farm system, to the point where we're in the running with the big boys in baseball. For the most coveted players (Soto, Otani, Castillo etc) that are available now.

Yes they too have made a lot of questionable decisions, and had some luck involved. My point is that both Bobby/Masai and Shap/Atkins have done a great job in turning around their respective franchises. The only difference imo is Bobby/Masai have a title. Hopefully if things continue to improve, Shap/Atkins will have a title of their own.

 

[Nineteen67]

Contrary to our needs, between Ohtani and Soto, give me Soto. Soto is the best hitter in the world in my opinion or top 3. Generational talent. He's a Manny Ramirez/David Ortitz level talent of our generation. Better then Vlad which is crazy. Only Harper has a better wrc+ over the last 3 years.

Springer, Soto, Kirk, Gurrerro, Hernandez is a ridiculous top 5 followed by Gurriel/Jansen Bichette, Chapman, and Biggio/Espinal.

1) Springer
2) Soto
3) Gurrerro
4) Hernandez
5) Kirk (dh/c)
6) Gurriel Jr. (dh/4th of/Jansen (dh/c)
7) Chapman
8) Bichette
9) Biggio/Espinal

I would expect a roster player, such as Gurriel, would likely have to be include in a deal for Soto.

 

[MAB1]

If Shap and Atkins bring us a title in the next year or so. You'd have to consider them on the same tier as Bobby/Masai.

Easily, they've done what Bobby/Masai have been doing for a very long time, it's just that it's been split between Cleveland and Toronto. Masai never had Bobby in Denver. What Shap and Atkins built in Cleveland (Raptors fans better not tell me that Cleveland is a more desirable market to sign in than Toronto) is eerily similar to what Bobby/Masai have done with the Raptors.

The main difference is the team that the Jays duo built in Cleveland lost in game 7 of the world series to the best team in the regular season (fully healthy too). The Raptors won their title with the Warriors missing their 1a/1b scorer for most of the finals along with Thompson for a 1/3 of it. The Raptors probably don't have a chip to their name if Durant is healthy and the Masai/Bobby legacy is what? Be a treadmill playoff team, trade Derozan for a finals appearance but no chip, Kawhi still leaves and they rebuild.

They were literally gonna be the Atlanta Hawks of the 2000's if not for the Kawhi trade, that's not a legacy.

 

[MAB1]

plus the jays aren’t gonna offer Soto $500M. And i would doubt he would commit to TO anyways. Pessimist for sure but realist to sometimes

You don't know what they'd do. And you don't know what Soto would do after 2.5 years playing with Vladdy, Teo, Gurriel, Kirk, Berrios, Garcia etc. That's a lot of latin influence on one team.

Keep your Toronto insecurities to yourself please, this isn't 2008 anymore.

 

[Habs10Habs]

Easily, they've done what Bobby/Masai have been doing for a very long time, it's just that it's been split between Cleveland and Toronto. Masai never had Bobby in Denver. What Shap and Atkins built in Cleveland (Raptors fans better not tell me that Cleveland is a more desirable market to sign in than Toronto) is eerily similar to what Bobby/Masai have done with the Raptors.

The main difference is the team that the Jays duo built in Cleveland lost in game 7 of the world series to the best team in the regular season (fully healthy too). The Raptors won their title with the Warriors missing their 1a/1b scorer for most of the finals along with Thompson for a 1/3 of it. The Raptors probably don't have a chip to their name if Durant is healthy and the Masai/Bobby legacy is what? Be a treadmill playoff team, trade Derozan for a finals appearance but no chip, Kawhi still leaves and they rebuild.

They were literally gonna be the Atlanta Hawks of the 2000's if not for the Kawhi trade, that's not a legacy.

Considering the city of Toronto hadn't won a professional championship since 1993. Sorry FC or the Argos, you're not on the same level as the Leafs, Blue Jays or Raptors. I agree, I wouldn't call what Masai has done a "legacy" just yet.

The point of my long ass essay was that Masai is considered to be a demi-god in Toronto. For bringing us the one championship. While Shap/Atkins are sometimes looked down upon as if they were second class.

 

[trellaine201]

They are on a different level.

 

[theaub]

Broke: trading for Soto or Ohtani
Woke: trading for Soto and Ohtani

 

[Bjindaho]

Broke: trading for Soto or Ohtani
Woke: trading for Soto and Ohtani

Let's just break baseball?

 

[Suntouchable13]

Easily, they've done what Bobby/Masai have been doing for a very long time, it's just that it's been split between Cleveland and Toronto. Masai never had Bobby in Denver. What Shap and Atkins built in Cleveland (Raptors fans better not tell me that Cleveland is a more desirable market to sign in than Toronto) is eerily similar to what Bobby/Masai have done with the Raptors.

The main difference is the team that the Jays duo built in Cleveland lost in game 7 of the world series to the best team in the regular season (fully healthy too). The Raptors won their title with the Warriors missing their 1a/1b scorer for most of the finals along with Thompson for a 1/3 of it. The Raptors probably don't have a chip to their name if Durant is healthy and the Masai/Bobby legacy is what? Be a treadmill playoff team, trade Derozan for a finals appearance but no chip, Kawhi still leaves and they rebuild.

They were literally gonna be the Atlanta Hawks of the 2000's if not for the Kawhi trade, that's not a legacy.

It’s hard to even win one in the NBA. Look at teams like the Bobcats, Magic, Kings, Knicks have been stuck in mediocrity forever. Even post Kawhi, they finished 2nd in the east the following season and just missed making it to the ECF in the bubble during a coin flip series against Boston. He has built a tremendous organization here that many teams wish they had.

 

[Bjindaho]

It’s hard to even win one in the NBA. Look at teams like the Bobcats, Magic, Kings, Knicks have been stuck in mediocrity forever. Even post Kawhi, they finished 2nd in the east the following season and just missed making it to the ECF in the bubble during a coin flip series against Boston. He has built a tremendous organization here that many teams wish they had.

He's also picked 20th or lower in every draft save 2 in a league where winners are built on high picks or extremely lucky picking.

Edit: In the past 10 years, Lebron has 3 titles (one with Bosh and Wade, one with Kyrie and Love, and one with AD, Rondo and Dwight Howard), Stef Curry has 4 (Iguodala before he started to fall off, 2x Durant and Iguodala, and the last one with the old guard and newer high picks). The other winners are San Antonio (had Duncan but largely fell outside this), Milwaukee (Giannis plus depth, made a trade for Holliday that was their difference maker), and Toronto.