Confirmed with Link: Sandin to Washington for Erik Gustafsson and 1st (BOS)

[thusk]

The reason McCabe is starting in the defensive zone is because he's useless on offense and will never see a powerplay. Unfortunately he's only marginally better on defense.

And the reason why sandin starting in offensive zone is because hes useless on defence

 

[Mess]

It’s weird, our system is not conducive for d-men to get a lot of points? It’s not like the D doesn’t have talented forwards to give the puck to. I don’t get the lack of points from our D. Puzzling. I mean the total lack of them is puzzling.

Leafs are always looking for secondary scoring beyond the core 4 forwards and that could include the D core as well chipping in offensively.

That was the point of my post above where Sandin since traded for some reason is now producing 9 points in 5 games with Washington, and Leafs entire Dcore combined for 3 measly assists during that time.

If Sandin was doing in Toronto what he is doing now in Washington it would be foolish to trade him for a future draft pick, that helps little today with Leafs Cup chances.

So you have to wonder what's happening here and how did this trade make the Leafs better?

 

[rocketman588]

Leafs are always looking for secondary scoring beyond the core 4 forwards and that could include the D core as well chippi8ng in offensively.

That was the point of my post above where Sandin since traded for some reason is now producing 9 points in 5 games with Washington, and Leafs entire Dcore combined for 3 measly assists during that time.

If Sandin was doing in Toronto what he is doing now in Washington it would be foolish to trade him for a future draft pick, that helps little today with Leafs Cup chances.

So you have to wonder what's happening here and how did this trade make the Leafs better?

We didn't really give him opportunity and played him on the off side

It's why he wanted out in the first place. We're doing the same shit with lily

The trade in itself is fine we had a log jam ( look what has happened to Timmins)

The frustrating part is that it highlights how insanely dumb Keefe is with his lineup useage

 

[Mess]

We didn't really give him opportunity and played him on the off side

It's why he wanted out in the first place. We're doing the same shit with lily

Speaking of Lily.

He was also a former 1st round pick by Toronto, and I was curious for those that like this trade if they would have been just has happy had the kept Sandin and trade Liljegren instead for a late 1st or if opnions would then change and we should be keeping our youth and "playing the kids" instead?

Sandin is blocked by 39 year old Giordano for his year and next, who is the oldest Dman in the league currently, if you're trading 22 year old for players about to turn 40 are you seeing the long-term big picture or is this all about the here and now only?

If so how does trading a young player not even in his prime yet for a future pick helping the Leafs today, and in the here and now in terms of Cup improvement?

 

[rocketman588]

Speaking of Lily.

He was also a former 1st round pick also, and I was curious for those that like this trade if they would have been just has happy had the kept Sandin and trade Liljegren instead for a late 1st?

Lily has been significantly better imo so probably not

Unless we just f*** his development up over the next two years

 

[Ziggdiezan]

One of the things Zeke used to talk most about on these boards was how often bottom pairing defensemen would put up good advanced statistics but it wasn't always a good indicator that they could easily move up in the lineup and many times very far from the case.

I was pretty shocked when I looked at the usage of all our players and how Sandin was being sheltered. Lowest Dzone start % on team, highest start shift on the fly % on team and even leading this stat leaguewide. He also had alot of defensive zone giveaways for someone that wasn't spending all that much time actually in that zone.

He's got great offensive skills, thinks the game very well and is suprisingly physical for a smaller player. There are very serious concerns with his ability to defend and I'm not talking about looking at his xGF at the end of the night type of defence. I'm talking when the other team has possession in our end and he needs to do things like clear the front of the net, break up the cycle. win foot races to loose pucks and not turn the puck over under pressure. Whether it was Keefe, Dubas or both combined, they didn't seem that sold on him in regard to that part of the game.

If I had to guess, He will be someone that is close to elite offensively if given the minutes and #1 PP usage but will be someone that could get exposed in the playoffs and against certain opponents or playstyle.

For a long time the leafs have had one of the most sheltered third pairing in the league. Makes it fairly easy to break into the NHL I guess but then very hard to make the transition to a top 4 role with much more difficult usage. Dermott being a pretty good example

 

[JT AM da real deal]

OMG last night I watched Caps v Rangers on da boob tube .. folks nothing at all has changed with Sandin except he is getting more ice time with Caps .. i could care less about game so all i did was watch Sandin .. and he was brutal .. he got beat off blue line in offensive end 4X due to his lack of foot speed and he got beat 3X to puck in his own end with lead positions on da retrieval (twice he should have received interference penalties but refs did not call them) .. he also got beat with foot speed on races to net for defensive position which cost Caps 2 goals against .. bottom line all his fault and he was a well deserved -2 on game .. he just can't skate at NHL level and against good teams like in Atlantic playoffs he would be our 8th man after Holl

 

[Hellcat]

Speaking of Lily.

He was also a former 1st round pick by Toronto, and I was curious for those that like this trade if they would have been just has happy had the kept Sandin and trade Liljegren instead for a late 1st or if opnions would then change and we should be keeping our youth and "playing the kids" instead?

Sandin is blocked by 39 year old Giordano for his year and next, who is the oldest Dman in the league currently, if you're trading 22 year old for players about to turn 40 are you seeing the long-term big picture or is this all about the here and now only?

If so how does trading a young player not even in his prime yet for a future pick helping the Leafs today, and in the here and now in terms of Cup improvement?

No, Sandin had to go, do you know how expensive it is to replace remotes? Sandin induced RSAW "Remote Smashing Against Wall" syndrome for many Leaf fans..

OMG last night I watched Caps v Rangers on da boob tube .. folks nothing at all has changed with Sandin except he is getting more ice time with Caps .. i could care less about game so all i did was watch Sandin .. and he was brutal .. he got beat off blue line in offensive end 4X due to his lack of foot speed and he got beat 3X to puck in his own end with lead positions on da retrieval (twice he should have received interference penalties but refs did not call them) .. he also got beat with foot speed on races to net for defensive position which cost Caps 2 goals against .. bottom line all his fault and he was a well deserved -2 on game .. he just can't skate at NHL level and against good teams like in Atlantic playoffs he would be our 8th man after Holl

It sounds like he's actually improved

 

[Gabriel426]

OMG last night I watched Caps v Rangers on da boob tube .. folks nothing at all has changed with Sandin except he is getting more ice time with Caps .. i could care less about game so all i did was watch Sandin .. and he was brutal .. he got beat off blue line in offensive end 4X due to his lack of foot speed and he got beat 3X to puck in his own end with lead positions on da retrieval (twice he should have received interference penalties but refs did not call them) .. he also got beat with foot speed on races to net for defensive position which cost Caps 2 goals against .. bottom line all his fault and he was a well deserved -2 on game .. he just can't skate at NHL level and against good teams like in Atlantic playoffs he would be our 8th man after Holl

That’s exactly what I had been saying, most here are watching the scoreboard and stating Sandin is doing great without actually watching the Caps play.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

That’s exactly what I had been saying, most here are watching the scoreboard and stating Sandin is doing great without actually watching the Caps play.

Just watch - there will be radio silence in a couple weeks. No "oh maybe Leaf fans were right". Rasmus is the same guy, just with more minutes and a bit of puck luck. I don't think any contending team wants that type of player in their top 4.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

That’s exactly what I had been saying, most here are watching the scoreboard and stating Sandin is doing great without actually watching the Caps play.

Really only watched because of a few things i read on this thread and leafs were not playing and march madness has not started yet .. and like i figured Sandin did not relearn his skating stride in a few days hahahaha .. he is getting more minutes and PP so putting up more points as he does have amazing hands and he is a strong little f*cker in his core .. it was a great trade by Dubie to get a 1st round pick in a great draft and he replaced Sandin's skills with Gusto who actually skates better but has crappy hands

 

[ICBM]

Over the past number of years it turns out the scarcity is actually the Jake Muzzin type big body all situations guy whom they’ve never been able to adequately fill. They got the market wrong.

They got the game wrong. They do not understand how to win in this league. No goalie, no dmen. Not only Muzzin types, no pp quarterback too. They got beaten at their own game. No power forwards.
House cleaning is inevitable. The sooner, the better.

 

[Anthrax442]

I really wanted it to work with this guy, home grown talent, on the cheap, somewhat physical. He is still young and who knows what his ceiling might be, but from every angle it looks like it was a good and fair deal.

 

[Menzinger]

Speaking of Lily.

He was also a former 1st round pick by Toronto, and I was curious for those that like this trade if they would have been just has happy had the kept Sandin and trade Liljegren instead for a late 1st or if opnions would then change and we should be keeping our youth and "playing the kids" instead?

Sandin is blocked by 39 year old Giordano for his year and next, who is the oldest Dman in the league currently, if you're trading 22 year old for players about to turn 40 are you seeing the long-term big picture or is this all about the here and now only?

If so how does trading a young player not even in his prime yet for a future pick helping the Leafs today, and in the here and now in terms of Cup improvement?

Though aside from the being former first rounders, it's not exactly a straight comparison, is it? Lily has shown capable of handling tougher usage, especially defensively (has near split offensive and defensive zone starts for example). The right side of the depth chart also has a different outlook moving forward than any lhd would face

For a long time the leafs have had one of the most sheltered third pairing in the league. Makes it fairly easy to break into the NHL I guess but then very hard to make the transition to a top 4 role with much more difficult usage. Dermott being a pretty good example

Dermott is the perfect example of the dangers of being too enthusiastic about a young d man with very sheltered usage

 

[Martin Skoula]

Leafs are always looking for secondary scoring beyond the core 4 forwards and that could include the D core as well chippi8ng in offensively.

That was the point of my post above where Sandin since traded for some reason is now producing 9 points in 5 games with Washington, and Leafs entire Dcore combined for 3 measly assists during that time.

If Sandin was doing in Toronto what he is doing now in Washington it would be foolish to trade him for a future draft pick, that helps little today with Leafs Cup chances.

So you have to wonder what's happening here and how did this trade make the Leafs better?

You understand there’s a difference between creating offense and getting points right? If a goal is scored off a Matthews-Tavares-Marner passing play, we don’t get more goals if Rielly makes the pass Marner made instead even though the “points by defensemen” goes up by one.

Our top forwards come back lower in the zone than most other teams, the Jarnkrok goal last game for example was off a Matthews breakout pass to Marner. If we had Matthews floating and Rielly making that same breakout pass instead nothing would change about our offense.

 

[Pebble live]

OMG last night I watched Caps v Rangers on da boob tube .. folks nothing at all has changed with Sandin except he is getting more ice time with Caps .. i could care less about game so all i did was watch Sandin .. and he was brutal .. he got beat off blue line in offensive end 4X due to his lack of foot speed and he got beat 3X to puck in his own end with lead positions on da retrieval (twice he should have received interference penalties but refs did not call them) .. he also got beat with foot speed on races to net for defensive position which cost Caps 2 goals against .. bottom line all his fault and he was a well deserved -2 on game .. he just can't skate at NHL level and against good teams like in Atlantic playoffs he would be our 8th man after Holl

Watched the game as well and agree with this. Sandin struggled with his defensive assignments. He's still young and the caps are willing to give him the time. But I suspect the ceiling will be a number 2 or 3 d-man playing sheltered minutes putting up 50 pts a season.

He's not the next EK65.

That would be a big win for the Caps.

 

[Stephen]

They got the game wrong. They do not understand how to win in this league. No goalie, no dmen. Not only Muzzin types, no pp quarterback too. They got beaten at their own game. No power forwards.
House cleaning is inevitable. The sooner, the better.

I mean I’m TBD on the playoffs and regime change but the philosophy seems to boil down to we will outskill everyone else overwhelmingly but cut corners on D, G, size and other traditional inefficient fluff.

But why? The mission statement has always been to win. The recipe can be as conventional as anything but just get it right. Reinventing the wheel isn’t really required.

 

[RoadWarrior]

And the reason why sandin starting in offensive zone is because hes useless on defence

McCabe is useless at both ends.

 

[RoadWarrior]

How can you say McCabe is the same defensively as Sandin when they weren't even being deployed anything close to each other?

McCabe Dzone start % 5v5 12.8%
Sandin Dzone start % 5v5 7.5%

McCabe start shift on the fly % 5v5 57.5%
Sandin start shift on the fly % 5v5 70.1%

Defensive zone giveaways 5v5

McCabe 16
Sandin 27

So McCabe with more minutes played, tougher usage but turns the puck over much less.

You can't give the puck away unless you posses it. Sandin is the better puck possession player.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

You can't give the puck away unless you posses it. Sandin is the better puck possession player.

Who da f8ck cares? It is a completely useless stat .. watch last night Rangers v Caps game and see it for yourself .. Sandin was da reason Caps did not get a point .. he flat out got beat all over da ice for pucks .. D men need SIZE and SPEED to keep offensive guys away from ur nest .. yes he is good at possession but someone needs to feed him pucks with enough time and space to make a play

 

[therealkoho]

I heard Sandin already has 200 pts and that he said he hates the leafs

He also said that Dubas was the worst GM in the league, and that Keefe isn't even qualified to coach Pee Wee double A's.

At least I think that was him it could've been Malgin

 

[Leafblooded]

This post is stupid. How are you going to say Dubas made a bad trade when you don't even know what we are getting back yet? That pick could turn out to be better than Sandin... And Sandin was a late first BTW which is what we got back.

I've been saying it's a bad trade since the moment he made it. Exactly the reason being is we don't know what we get back, other than a rental in Gustafson. Giving up homegrown talent for unknown futures, especially considering our all-in position otherwise, is inexplicable and was not at all what we needed. Sandin could've been traded this offseason. Why did we need the draft pick now? I just don't understand that reasoning, therefore it is regarded.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Funniest shit is seeing the mains who said he was a bust now saying he is a top pairing dman literally 2 weeks later

 

[Sypher04]

Funniest shit is seeing the mains who said he was a bust now saying he is a top pairing dman literally 2 weeks later

The main boards are like all our worst posters in this section, but if it was everyone. Just wall to wall baiting and bad faith arguments. It’s a cesspool honestly

 

[thusk]

Leafs are always looking for secondary scoring beyond the core 4 forwards and that could include the D core as well chipping in offensively.

That was the point of my post above where Sandin since traded for some reason is now producing 9 points in 5 games with Washington, and Leafs entire Dcore combined for 3 measly assists during that time.

If Sandin was doing in Toronto what he is doing now in Washington it would be foolish to trade him for a future draft pick, that helps little today with Leafs Cup chances.

So you have to wonder what's happening here and how did this trade make the Leafs better?

Its also the same team who had gustafsson with 38 pts in 61 games ( more than any leafs D)...

Sandin would not having the same production staying in toronto than in washington