Confirmed with Link: Sandin to Washington for Erik Gustafsson and 1st (BOS)

[ULF_55]

Actually, Schenn was decently mobile when he first came into the league. He bulked up too much, and it killed his mobility, and eventually he slimmed down to an ideal build for him.

Decently mobile, isn't saying a lot.
Bulking up just made him worse.
He wasn't ready for the NHL, but very few wanted to let him develop in the minors.
I suggested that here and that went over like a lead balloon.
Wasted pick through wishing he was ready when he wasn't.

 

[TIGERCOOL]

Ya I just made a similar comment on the mainboard thread - already the worst regular on the Caps in terms of xGA/60, getting buried on chances, etc.

A lot of statwatchers that are dooming are going to quietly dissapear once his production normalizes and the honeymoon phase ends. Last night he looked a lot like Toronto Sandin - couldn't keep up, bad decisions in his zone, could handle the forecheck, etc.

TBH you're describing most small offensive defencemen in the league.

 

[ULF_55]

Curious to see who we end up taking with the pick. For my money of the guys that are ranked around there, I wouldn't mind taking Hunter Brzustewics. Similiar type of player to Sandin, a bit better frame and better skater at same age. Not as good of a shooter. Seems like someone we could mold in a similar fashion, and he's been one of the few bright spots on a horribly coached Kitchener team which I think has hurt his stock somewhat.

Many questions about that pick.
Who is going to use it?
If Dubas, can he get a 2nd. and 4th. for it? The value is likely after 28th. in the draft, so moving from the 2nd. round to 28th.-32nd. isn't a huge win for anyone. I don't see a 2nd. and 3rd., unless that's someone drafting late in the 2nd. and are moving 20 spots, then maybe a late 2nd. and late 3rd.?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Decently mobile, isn't saying a lot.
Bulking up just made him worse.
He wasn't ready for the NHL, but very few wanted to let him develop in the minors.
I suggested that here and that went over like a lead balloon.
Wasted pick through wishing he was ready when he wasn't.

Decently mobile is really all Schenn needed for his playstyle. And it's a good lesson that it's not always better to go bigger. There are tradeoffs.
We shouldn't have picked a defenseman like that at 5, and we probably played him too fast, but then again, I'm not sure how beneficial big, physical players excelling against kids because of their size actually is to their development. The real issue was how much bulk he put on after starting out decently in the NHL.
I don't know if that was his decision or Leaf management, but it was the wrong one.
The concern with Sandin is that you can't just shave off some pounds and make him faster, and his playstyle requires mobility a lot more.

 

[ULF_55]

Ya I just made a similar comment on the mainboard thread - already the worst regular on the Caps in terms of xGA/60, getting buried on chances, etc.

A lot of statwatchers that are dooming are going to quietly dissapear once his production normalizes and the honeymoon phase ends. Last night he looked a lot like Toronto Sandin - couldn't keep up, bad decisions in his zone, could handle the forecheck, etc.

Look left, look right, now look in the middle. Don't give credit to the fringe.
He isn't a #1 defender ... no poop!
He's played around 150 NHL games, and he's supposed to be a #1 defender?

The fringe are going to places that is unrealistic, trying to say Team A won the trade by a mile.
He's a #1 versus he's not a #1.

He's a developing defender, who has good and bad assets, getting a tonne of minutes as the season winds down.

 

[Mess]

Every draft pick is like a lottery 649 ticket before the drawing of numbers, as you don't know if you have a winner yet.

The higher the pick the better the potential return.

Rasmus Sadin was a 1st round pick in the past and became a successful NHL player so that lottery ticket paid off it was a winner, unlike many of the draft picks that bust and are losers as a result of never making the NHL.

Now you trade that winning lottery ticket Sandin, for a new unknown lottery 649 ticket in a future draw and start all over from scratch with the objective being what?.

That the new lottery ticket return becomes > better > player than Sandin in the future, and not only the Sandin today at age 22 but what still might be ahead of him?

PS. Washington in only 5 games has gotten a return of 1 goal 8 assists and 9 points for their future lottery 649 ticket.

 

[Stephen]

Fox is a good example. I used Krug before. Also a good example. He was used very effectively in Boston paired with dmen who knew their business.

You get everything right, but I do not agree with your conclusions. Basically, you are saying that Sandin could be useful, if Leaf incompetent management were able to create the right blueline mix to fit him in. Your conclusion is: let's get rid of Sandin because he doesn't fit into current 'system'.
My conclusion is: fire incompetent management and keep Sandin.

No, what I’m saying is “if” Leafs management wanted to build around Sandin, they would surround him with redwoods to maximize his effectiveness and to insulate him. He can’t be a six pack of other random defensemen. And whether he’s worth building around is a second question.

Like I always say, the Leaf blueline is built with a lot of poor puzzle pieces.

I’ll tell you one thing that grinds my gears. This Dubas regime has stocked up on a lot of Krug, Enstrom, Fox type defensemen on the premise that the league prejudices skill and there is a market inefficiency to exploit. Over the past number of years it turns out the scarcity is actually the Jake Muzzin type big body all situations guy whom they’ve never been able to adequately fill. They got the market wrong.

 

[Mess]

Look left, look right, now look in the middle. Don't give credit to the fringe.
He isn't a #1 defender ... no poop!
He's played around 150 NHL games, and he's supposed to be a #1 defender?

"History tends to repeat itself" as the saying goes.

Remember Randy Carlyle who became one of the worst Leafs trades of all time?

Randy Carlyle Gets Traded and Becomes NHL’s Best Defenseman

The Trade:

• Toronto Maple Leafs acquire: Dave Burrows
• Pittsburgh Penguins acquire: Randy Carlyle and George Ferguson

Randy Carlyle drafted #30 overall by Toronto in 1976, after the Sudbury, ON native had ripped up junior hockey in his hometown before joining the Toronto Maple Leafs and looked like a great prospect.

However, after not producing much at the NHL-level, two years later Carlyle was sent to the Pittsburgh Penguins with George Ferguson for an aging veteran defenseman named Dave Burrows.

Burrows was at the end of his career, while Carlyle was just getting started, and boy did he ever take off. Two years after getting traded from the Toronto Maple Leafs, Carlyle turned into one of the best defenseman in the NHL. His 1980-81 season will always be remembered in Pittsburgh, as he scored 16 goals, registered 83 points and won the Norris Trophy.

And it’s not like Carlyle was a flash in the pan or anything that one season. For the next decade after the Toronto Maple Leafs moved on from him, he continued to produce year-after-year. Even when he got traded to the Winnipeg Jets, he continued to have a great career, playing over 1000 NHL games and nearly 650 points.

PS. Nobody knows what might happen in the future with young developing players that teams give up on too early only to have it turn out badly on them, as the ending of this story is still not written so all possibilities remain on the table.

 

[Mess]

Since the Sandin trade, last 5 games played.

Rasmus Sandin .. 5 games 1 goal 8 assists 9 points

vs.

Leafs entire Defense core (including playing 7 dmen now) last 5 games

Rielly ................. 5 games 0-2-2 points
Giordano ........ 5 games 0-0-0 points
Brodie .............. 5 games 0-0-0 points
Holl ....................5 games 0-1-1 points
McCabe .......... 5 games 0-0-0 points
Liljegren ......... 4 games 0-0-0 points
Gustafsson ... 4 games 0-0-0 points
Schenn ........... 2 games 0-0-0 points

Leaf Total Defense [8 Dmen] scoring 35 games 0 goals 3 assists 3 points

 

[Leafblooded]

This trade was absolutely reGarded. Dubas making trades for the sake of making trades like he's playing NHL 2000. So stupid.

 

[Martin Skoula]

The real issue was Rielly's contract. If we didn't resign him we could have properly insulated Sandin and had him step into a proper offensive role. The team seemed to perform as a more cohesive unit without Rielly, who has the constant inclination to jump up in the play even though he doesn't have the foot speed to cover for his poor judgement anymore. I think Sandin would have been the better option in Rielly's role with more upside. Even if he's slower, he's more positionally responsible.

Tough call in hindsight, letting your "#1 D" and great locker room guy walk during your cup window would send a weird message to the team... but those calls are why GMs are paid to make those decisions despite the optics.

Honestly trading Rielly or letting him walk would still have us in the same scenario we are now, I don’t see a scenario where Rielly leaves and we just keep Sandin-Muzzin-Gio on LHD. We would have signed at least a Brodie-tier UFA or made a trade for someone with term, especially with Muzzin’s health already being a big question mark at the time of Rielly’s signing.

 

[TIGERCOOL]

Honestly trading Rielly or letting him walk would still have us in the same scenario we are now, I don’t see a scenario where Rielly leaves and we just keep Sandin-Muzzin-Gio on LHD. We would have signed at least a Brodie-tier UFA or made a trade for someone with term, especially with Muzzin’s health already being a big question mark at the time of Rielly’s signing.

Like I said, hindsight in 20/20. It would have been a very tough call. We had that stretch of games this year without Rielly that put things in perspective: the team is more cohesive without him. Sandin doesn't have all of Rielly's tools but he doesn't put every teammate on the ice into a frenzy trying to cover for his ill-advised rushes and pinches every shift. He's more of a crafty pass-first puck mover with vision that is better suited for our structure. Both are generally a tire-fire defending against a heavy forecheck so that's a wash.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Like I said, hindsight in 20/20. It would have been a very tough call. We had that stretch of games this year without Rielly that put things in perspective: the team is more cohesive without him. Sandin doesn't have all of Rielly's tools but he doesn't put every teammate on the ice into a frenzy trying to cover for his ill-advised rushes and pinches every shift. He's more of a crafty pass-first puck mover with vision that is better suited for our structure. Both are generally a tire-fire defending against a heavy forecheck so that's a wash.

Don’t get me wrong I’m the furthest thing from a Rielly fan and was hoping we’d trade him or move on, but even if we did Sandin would still be a #5-7 here frustrated with his contract and playing time. The only potential improvement is that whoever we brought in for #1/2 LD would have less term and he wouldn’t feel as blocked longterm. Sandin in the top-4 full time is something we could have gambled on in 2017 when we had time to experiment and less expectations.

 

[NJG]

This trade was absolutely reGarded. Dubas making trades for the sake of making trades like he's playing NHL 2000. So stupid.

This post is stupid. How are you going to say Dubas made a bad trade when you don't even know what we are getting back yet? That pick could turn out to be better than Sandin... And Sandin was a late first BTW which is what we got back.

 

[Suntouchable13]

It’s weird, our system is not conducive for d-men to get a lot of points? It’s not like the D doesn’t have talented forwards to give the puck to. I don’t get the lack of points from our D. Puzzling. I mean the total lack of them is puzzling.

 

[notbias]

Every draft pick is like a lottery 649 ticket before the drawing of numbers, as you don't know if you have a winner yet.

The higher the pick the better the potential return.

Rasmus Sadin was a 1st round pick in the past and became a successful NHL player so that lottery ticket paid off it was a winner, unlike many of the draft picks that bust and are losers as a result of never making the NHL.

Now you trade that winning lottery ticket Sandin, for a new unknown lottery 649 ticket in a future draw and start all over from scratch with the objective being what?.

That the new lottery ticket return becomes > better > player than Sandin in the future, and not only the Sandin today at age 22 but what still might be ahead of him?

PS. Washington in only 5 games has gotten a return of 1 goal 8 assists and 9 points for their future lottery 649 ticket.

Lottery tickets are luck, player evaluation and development are not.

This analogy is pointless.

Since the Sandin trade, last 5 games played.

Rasmus Sandin .. 5 games 1 goal 8 assists 9 points

vs.

Leafs entire Defense core (including playing 7 dmen now) last 5 games

Rielly ................. 5 games 0-2-2 points
Giordano ........ 5 games 0-0-0 points
Brodie .............. 5 games 0-0-0 points
Holl ....................5 games 0-1-0 points
McCabe .......... 5 games 0-0-0 points
Liljegren ......... 4 games 0-0-0 points
Gustafsson ... 4 games 0-0-0 points
Schenn ........... 2 games 0-0-0 points

Leaf Total Defense [8 Dmen] scoring 35 games 0 goals 3 assists 3 points

Since the Sandin trade, in the last 5 games played

Leafs: 3-2-0
Capitals: 2-3-0

Leafs won the trade.

 

[rocketman588]

Is there any doubt that this first is going to become a second and a third.( Most likely with the media telling us that player is who we would have drafted anyways)

It's what we do

 

[rocketman588]

Lottery tickets are luck, player evaluation and development are not.

This analogy is pointless.



Since the Sandin trade, in the last 5 games played

Leafs: 3-2-0
Capitals: 2-3-0

Leafs won the trade.

We currently have 0 Dubas draft picks in the lineup and a total of 3 are in the league so maybe we shouldn't be overvaluing our player development.

The caps have played the
Rangers
Devils
Kings
Isles
Sharks

And have one fewer (point they're 2-2-1)

Then we do with an easier schedule. They also conceded on the year and sold off a bunch of pieces. Comparing us to them record wise basically shows how much trouble we're actually in.

I don't think the trade was that bad

But we'll definitely lose it if we continue to play moronic lineups

 

[RoadWarrior]

Lottery tickets are luck, player evaluation and development are not.

This analogy is pointless.



Since the Sandin trade, in the last 5 games played

Leafs: 3-2-0
Capitals: 2-3-0

Leafs won the trade.

LMAO!

 

[weems]

Ya I just made a similar comment on the mainboard thread - already the worst regular on the Caps in terms of xGA/60, getting buried on chances, etc.

A lot of statwatchers that are dooming are going to quietly dissapear once his production normalizes and the honeymoon phase ends. Last night he looked a lot like Toronto Sandin - couldn't keep up, bad decisions in his zone, could handle the forecheck, etc.

One of the things Zeke used to talk most about on these boards was how often bottom pairing defensemen would put up good advanced statistics but it wasn't always a good indicator that they could easily move up in the lineup and many times very far from the case.

I was pretty shocked when I looked at the usage of all our players and how Sandin was being sheltered. Lowest Dzone start % on team, highest start shift on the fly % on team and even leading this stat leaguewide. He also had alot of defensive zone giveaways for someone that wasn't spending all that much time actually in that zone.

He's got great offensive skills, thinks the game very well and is suprisingly physical for a smaller player. There are very serious concerns with his ability to defend and I'm not talking about looking at his xGF at the end of the night type of defence. I'm talking when the other team has possession in our end and he needs to do things like clear the front of the net, break up the cycle. win foot races to loose pucks and not turn the puck over under pressure. Whether it was Keefe, Dubas or both combined, they didn't seem that sold on him in regard to that part of the game.

If I had to guess, He will be someone that is close to elite offensively if given the minutes and #1 PP usage but will be someone that could get exposed in the playoffs and against certain opponents or playstyle.

 

[thusk]

Leafs had to choose between sandin or rielly

To perform rielly need to play in maximum of offensive situation without playing toughest matchup all night long

To perform Sandin need to play in maximum of offensive situation without playing toughest matchup all night long

So keeping those 2 player together, how cann you give everything those player need to have succes... it would like exactly like rielly/gardiner

One season rielly played tougheet matchup, next season gardiner did it...with defensive result coming with it.

Mccabe is a better D for the leafs than sandin whatever number of pts sandin will have... because hes giving something leafs didn't having and giving opportjnity to move rielly out of toughest matchup and bring back best of rielly...

 

[RoadWarrior]

Leafs had to choose between sandin or rielly

To perform rielly need to play in maximum of offensive situation without playing toughest matchup all night long

To perform Sandin need to play in maximum of offensive situation without playing toughest matchup all night long

So keeping those 2 player together, how cann you give everything those player need to have succes... it would like exactly like rielly/gardiner

One season rielly played tougheet matchup, next season gardiner did it...with defensive result coming with it.

Mccabe is a better D for the leafs than sandin whatever number of pts sandin will have... because hes giving something leafs didn't having and giving opportjnity to move rielly out of toughest matchup and bring back best of rielly...

McCabe is about the same defensively as Sandin without the points. Neither are great skaters.

The McCabe/Lafferty acquisitions were a lateral move at best. To be honest I'd rather have Engvall and Sandin.

O'Reilly and Accari have actually added something. Too early to tell with Schenn.

 

[thusk]

McCabe is about the same defensively as Sandin without the points. Neither are great skaters.

The McCabe/Lafferty acquisitions were a lateral move at best. To be honest I'd rather have Engvall and Sandin.

O'Reilly and Accari have actually added something. Too early to tell with Schenn.

Youre joking right...

Sandin was the d playing weakest defensive matchup amount all leafs D and should be better than a guy who playing toughest matchup in both Chicago/Toronto...

A guy who started 57,2% at 5v5 of the time in offensive zone, 61 % in every situation and raise at 67,6 in washington at 5v5 and 74,5% in every situation...

If sandin would be as good defensivly, he would be in top 4 long time ago... Sandin IS NOT an all around D, hes a pure offensive D, thats it

Sandin is good in washington because they used it in every offensive situation they can, the same reason why gustafsson had strong season too in Washington

 

[RoadWarrior]

Youre joking right...

Sandin was the d playing weakest defensive matchup amount all leafs D and should be better than a guy who playing toughest matchup in both Chicago/Toronto...

A guy who started 57,2% at 5v5 of the time in offensive zone, 61 % in every situation and raise at 67,6 in washington at 5v5 and 74,5% in every situation...

If sandin would be as good defensivly, he would be in top 4 long time ago... Sandin IS NOT an all around D, hes a pure offensive D, thats it

Sandin is good in washington because they used it in every offensive situation they can



Youre joking right...

Sandin was the d playing weakest defensive matchup amount all leafs D and should be better than a guy who playing toughest matchup in both Chicago/Toronto...

A guy who started 57,2% of the time in offensive zone, raise at 67,6 in washington...

If sandin would be as good defensivly, he would be in top 4 long time ago... Sandin IS NOT an all around D, hes a pure offensive D so need to play

The reason McCabe is starting in the defensive zone is because he's useless on offense and will never see a powerplay. Unfortunately he's only marginally better on defense.

 

[weems]

McCabe is about the same defensively as Sandin without the points. Neither are great skaters.

The McCabe/Lafferty acquisitions were a lateral move at best. To be honest I'd rather have Engvall and Sandin.

O'Reilly and Accari have actually added something. Too early to tell with Schenn.

How can you say McCabe is the same defensively as Sandin when they weren't even being deployed anything close to each other?

McCabe Dzone start % 5v5 12.8%
Sandin Dzone start % 5v5 7.5%

McCabe start shift on the fly % 5v5 57.5%
Sandin start shift on the fly % 5v5 70.1%

Defensive zone giveaways 5v5

McCabe 16
Sandin 27

So McCabe with more minutes played, tougher usage but turns the puck over much less.