Confirmed with Link: Sandin signs 2 x 1.4

[Dekes For Days]

Source what. Read the situations. I just told you he got maneuvered into giving Mrazek a NTC last season. If you understand how negotiations work, you would understand Dubas caved. The Marner deal is another easy situation to understand. He overpaid Marner because he didnt want to go through another Nylander situation.

He didn't "cave" in either situation. Marner is paid in line with the history of post-ELC contracts, and there's nothing unusual about a goalie like Mrazek getting a 10-team NTC in UFA.

 

[DarkKnight]

At this rate, Dubas won’t be voted best GM by agents this year.

 

[francis246]

Rielly is on the top PP unit because he is the better PP option. It has nothing to do with the amount of money he makes.

People really overrate the factor of a shot on the PP, short of it being someone like Makar or Josi, and the Leafs would need to change their system to actually use their defenseman more actively as a shooter on the PP if we want anyone to be a factor.

Rielly has as many PP goals over the past 3 years as Hughes and Fox. And he played 20+ fewer games than them too. Giordano has had 6. Those 3 extra goals over 3 years are not putting the PP over the top.

If we really want our defense to get more involved, maybe allowing to shoot at a time beyond near the end of their shift would be helpful. Even last game against the Habs, there were more than a couple of times when both Rielly and Gio could have let a solid wrister off for at least a tip by one of the two guys in front of the net but instead passed it off to a winger and the PP was kept to the perimeter for the most part the entire time.

Beyond that, he is 39 years old. If we get to where we want to go, and he plays a full schedule, he would have to play triple digit games this year. I would rather he sit some games and be able to sustain his high level of play in 20 minutes a game than to run out of steam at the end of the year when it really matters... And that will almost certainly happen as it does with everyone else. Maybe we won't have that luxury, but if we do, we certainly should be giving him as much rest as we possibly can.

I disagree with the notion that Giordano needs to be load managed because he’s 39. If Giordano can play 82, he can play 82. You load manage if a player is clearly on a decline or physically they cannot keep up with the physical demands of the game anymore. By all accounts Giordano despite his age is one of the guys on our team that is in the best shape. Additionally his skating has not dropped off significantly. Reducing minutes nightly is a great way to help maintain longevity, but being older doesn’t automatically equate to needing to be load managed. It’s really a case by case scenario based on many different factors. Some players definitely need it, but others don’t. I think Gio falls into the later, would it benefit him? Potentially, but it’s not like if he plays 82 he’s going to fall off a cliff

 

[The Masters]

Here are Marner's stats from the last 3 years since he began his deal...

2019-2020 - Finished 18 Overall Points (17TH PPG)
2020-2021 - Finished 4 Overall Points (8th PPG)
2021-2022 - Finished 10 Overall Points (8th PPG)

He's just turned 25 and has 3 more prime years on his deal where he will most likley be top 10, possibly top 5 scorer, in the league while helping setup Matthews and being one of our most important contributors on the PK. We're talking a perennial offensive all-star (also NHL first team all star) who will be consistently putting up 30-40 goal/100 point seasons.

If you think 10.9M is an overpay at the time when all indications were the cap was going up then it couldn't have been by vey much given his performance so far. Maybe 1M at most and even then it only would have impacted us because of the flat cap period due to covid.

I am not talking about the value of Marner after he signed. I am talking about how Dubas caved in his negotiations with him and overpaid him AT THAT TIME. He did this because he didnt want another Nylander situation.

He didn't "cave" in either situation. Marner is paid in line with the history of post-ELC contracts, and there's nothing unusual about a goalie like Mrazek getting a 10-team NTC in UFA.

Disagree. He caved in both.

I'm sure there are complexities we're not aware of. I have more contention with the price to be honest, NTC's are not uncommon for older players - it's circumstantial.

Also depends how broad of a definition we are using for caving. We find ourselves backed into a corner far too often forsure and we pay for it.

That's mainly what I am getting at. I am just talking about pure negotiation and how its handled. Is Dubas learning? Could be. He handled the Sandin situation to perfection and didnt get desperate even after the injuries.

 

[ToneDog]

I am not talking about the value of Marner after he signed. I am talking about how Dubas caved in his negotiations with him and overpaid him AT THAT TIME. He did this because he didnt want another Nylander situation.


Disagree. He caved in both.


That's mainly what I am getting at. I am just talking about pure negotiation and how its handled. Is Dubas learning? Could be. He handled the Sandin situation to perfection and didnt get desperate even after the injuries.

If you ignore Mrazek and Ritchie, he has been better since the 3 amigos. True test will be when the 3 amigos are up for renewal, if he is still here.

 

[notbias]

At this rate, Dubas won’t be voted best GM by agents this year.

That vote doesn't really prove anything, would have loved more insight into it.

Did they say that cause Toronto hands out signing bonuses?

Did they poll agents with star clients? Obviously, Toronto pays star players.

They clearly didn't poll the mid-tier player agents because Dubas doesn't overpay those like many GMs.

Does this just reflect that Toronto gave out some big contracts and there was recency bias?

Lou was voted toughest GM in the same poll and look at their contracts/team.

Here was a quote from one of the agents: “Kyle is smart and he understands that the negotiation is not a competition to beat the agent or beat the player. Kyle worked in the agent business for a while, he sees both sides of it.”

 

[Dekes For Days]

Disagree. He caved in both.

He didn't cave in either, and there's really no legitimate argument otherwise. Just because you personally dislike or don't understand a contract does not mean the GM caved to the player.

 

[ShaneFalco]

He's still passing all of the tests

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

At this rate, Dubas won’t be voted best GM by agents this year.

Not sure about that.

It's a good relationship if you know you can sit on a deal forever and wake up any morning you want to say okay we will take this one instead of the one we were fighting for.

Sandin probably could go on vacation for 2 months and say okay I'm ready for the 2 x 1.4 now when he comes back.

Different ways to look at things. People calling Gross stupid too are wrong. How is an agent stupid if his client has a 2 x 1.4 locked up since July and can sit on it as long as he wants with no fear it will be pull off the table.

 

[zeke]

At this rate, Dubas won’t be voted best GM by agents this year.

Tfw when you realize they only ever asked that question (for the first time) because the Leafs GM just made a bunch of big signings.

 

[LeafEgo]

Not sure about that.

It's a good relationship if you know you can sit on a deal forever and wake up any morning you want to say okay we will take this one instead of the one we were fighting for.

Sandin probably could go on vacation for 2 months and say okay I'm ready for the 2 x 1.4 now when he comes back.

Different ways to look at things. People calling Gross stupid too are wrong. How is an agent stupid if his client has a 2 x 1.4 locked up since July and can sit on it as long as he wants with no fear it will be pull off the table.

That's not much of a win. Gross wasn't able to get his client the money he wanted, or a penny more than what was offered, and then embarrassingly disrupted the team and player by holding out past camp with no leverage just to buckle a few days later.

 

[Dekes For Days]

That vote doesn't really prove anything, would have loved more insight into it.

Did they say that cause Toronto hands out signing bonuses?

Did they poll agents with star clients? Obviously, Toronto pays star players.

They clearly didn't poll the mid-tier player agents because Dubas doesn't overpay those like many GMs.

Does this just reflect that Toronto gave out some big contracts and there was recency bias?

Lou was voted toughest GM in the same poll and look at their contracts/team.

Here was a quote from one of the agents: “Kyle is smart and he understands that the negotiation is not a competition to beat the agent or beat the player. Kyle worked in the agent business for a while, he sees both sides of it.”

Yeah, it's pretty sad how a few votes within a vague question in a poll from years ago was twisted and manipulated to suggest things that were never said.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

That's not much of a win. Gross wasn't able to get his client the money he wanted, or a penny more than what was offered, and then embarrassingly disrupted the team and player by holding out past camp with no leverage just to buckle a few days later.

That doesn't matter. In the end it looks like sandin got 100k extra on his QO. Not sure if true maybe it was always 1.2 and 1.6 but no way to know. 100k is a lot of money not sure why people laugh about it. Go try make 100k see how hard it is.

What matters is that Gross seems to be able to not create bad blood while him and client exhausts all patience. He at least gives a long window where some more money or benefits can be juiced and if it fails you spin back to the deal you're also okay with made back in July. That's not a stupid GM (oops, agent)just people who are entitled when it comes to their patience.

 

[The Masters]

He didn't cave in either, and there's really no legitimate argument otherwise. Just because you personally dislike or don't understand a contract does not mean the GM caved to the player.

Well you're wrong on both. He did in both cases. You aren't understanding how negotiations / leverage work and that's fine but don't respond saying there's no argument when there clearly is for both (as I layed out clearly in previous posts).

 

[Dekes For Days]

Well you're wrong on both. He did in both cases. You aren't understanding how negotiations / leverage work and that's fine but don't respond saying there's no argument when there clearly is for both (as I layed out clearly in previous posts).

I'm not wrong on either. He did not "cave" in either situation, and you have not laid out any argument otherwise. I understand negotiations, leverage and contract valuation a lot more than you seem to. Really the only thing you've done is complain about Marner's cap hit and Mrazek's limited NTC, but not only are neither representative of "caving", there's not even anything wrong or unusual with either. Marner (who had a ton of leverage, for the record) received a contract that is factually consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts, and it occurred within a normal negotiation dynamic where both sides saw movement towards a central figure. A veteran goalie getting a 10-team NTC in UFA is not unusual in the slightest.

 

[ACC1224]

Well you're wrong on both. He did in both cases. You aren't understanding how negotiations / leverage work and that's fine but don't respond saying there's no argument when there clearly is for both (as I layed out clearly in previous posts).

Most agree that the caving to Nylander is what started it all but he has seemed to have gotten better since.

 

[Hellcat]

So stupid.

Might want to get a new agent

This was on the player, he had no leverage, the agent would have told him that.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Most agree that the caving to Nylander is what started it all but he has seemed to have gotten better since.

He never caved to Nylander. It's literally the exact opposite. He held firm at his price point that worked for the team, and Nylander, by his own admission, called him up and took his offer in the last minutes.

 

[CanadasTeam]

Most agree that the caving to Nylander is what started it all but he has seemed to have gotten better since.

Definitely gotten better. Only rookie GMs make future promises to players such as "As long as I'm in Toronto, you won't be traded".

 

[Hellcat]

good deal
same deal he got offered in june

dubas growing some balls

Not sure its was Dubas growing anything, Sandin is still a developing player with no leverage, they signed a fair deal for both sides. Matthews, Marner, Nylander have all the leverage, with the exception of "sign or I will trade you", which I'm not sure trading either player before their next contract is a real option. So when Marner and Matthews sign north of $12.6 mil per year, people will say Dubas caved and he needs to grow a pair but again, sometimes your the bug and sometimes your the windshield. Dubas will go to both with a blank contract, tell them to write in their number and that is what their next contract will be.

 

[The Masters]

I'm not wrong on either. He did not "cave" in either situation, and you have not laid out any argument otherwise. I understand negotiations, leverage and contract valuation a lot more than you seem to. Really the only thing you've done is complain about Marner's cap hit and Mrazek's limited NTC, but not only are neither representative of "caving", there's not even anything wrong or unusual with either. Marner (who had a ton of leverage, for the record) received a contract that is factually consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts, and it occurred within a normal negotiation dynamic where both sides saw movement towards a central figure. A veteran goalie getting a 10-team NTC in UFA is not unusual in the slightest.

You're wrong on both and clearly don't understand how negotiations work. A limited NTC for a guy like Mrazek (plus that awful AAV) was a mistep and its clear he caved in negotiations in order to get a back up which he never did in the past. Who in their right mind would give that? He gave it because he was in a bidding war for him and wanted him. Not that difficult to understand. It back fired and he corrected it in the off-season. Marner's contract was an overpay at the time and Dubas came up right before training camp because he didnt want another Nylander situation. Maybe you dont understand what caving means by definition but its pretty common in negotiations depending where the leverage is. Nevertheless, he did in both cases and that's just reality. Good thing for us is that he's learning.

 

[zeke]

It's nice to have Sandin and Lilly locked in for not much higher than their ELC amounts.

I've been really annoyed that the Leafs didn't take advantage of having two talents like this on ELCs in the last two playoffs, as all cup winners need key cheap breakthrough young talent to win, but this buys us another couple of years of pseudo-ELC contract level to do that.

But for the love of god, please play these two kids in the playoffs this year. Enough with the shitty grunts.

 

[The Masters]

Not sure its was Dubas growing anything, Sandin is still a developing player with no leverage, they signed a fair deal for both sides. Matthews, Marner, Nylander have all the leverage, with the exception of "sign or I will trade you", which I'm not sure trading either player before their next contract is a real option. So when Marner and Matthews sign north of $12.6 mil per year, people will say Dubas caved and he needs to grow a pair but again, sometimes your the bug and sometimes your the windshield. Dubas will go to both with a blank contract, tell them to write in their number and that is what their next contract will be.

That mindset for a GM would work in a soft cap world but not in a hard cap. Going over the cap to sign your own guys would be great if Dubas was running the Raptors but thats not how it works in the NHL. You gotta negotiate the best you can with every player. Matthews is Matthews but the rest you gotta do your best. Hard caps suck.

 

[Hellcat]

Definitely gotten better. Only rookie GMs make future promises to players such as "As long as I'm in Toronto, you won't be traded".

Dubas never ever said he wouldn't be traded, what he said was

“The discussion that William and I had had a couple of times was a fear of his was that I think especially as it went on into October and November and obviously the deadline was looming and there began to be rumors of trades and more and more teams were calling the fear was that he would be signed and traded, that he was being signed to be traded and my discussion with him I just affirmed my intention with him that was not our intention whatsoever. Our intention was as long as I was here that I saw him as a part of the Toronto Maple Leafs.”​

Projecting your vision of what you see and an agreement to not trade a player are two completely different things.

 

[ACC1224]

Definitely gotten better. Only rookie GMs make future promises to players such as "As long as I'm in Toronto, you won't be traded".

Yeah, another learning moment, to be expected when you hire someone with no past experience.
I think he has learned to be more careful when speaking after that one.