Confirmed with Link: Sandin signs 2 x 1.4

[Hellcat]

That mindset for a GM would work in a soft cap world but not in a hard cap. Going over the cap to sign your own guys would be great if Dubas was running the Raptors but thats not how it works in the NHL. You gotta negotiate the best you can with every player. Matthews is Matthews but the rest you gotta do your best. Hard caps suck.

Sure you can try to negotiate with Marner and Matthews but they don't need to negotiate with Dubas. they both know if they walk this team is no better than Ottawa is now. They have 95% of the leverage. Austin's contract expires the season after next, Marner gets to wait and see what Matthews gets and his contract demands will springboard off Matthews contract. Matthews is going to expect to be paid more than MacKinnon ($12.6 mil per). Marner is going to be expect to be paid as well as Matthews. You can beg both to give you a break because of the hard cap but both are going to tell Dubas, the hard cap sounds like a you problem not a me problem. There are very few players in Matthews and Marners stratosphere, they will dictate terms.

I'm sure there are teams that would offer both players the max, $16.5 mil. Heck in 2019-20 and 2020-21, Matthews salary was $15.9 mil, he's already got the taste of what it means to make 16 mil per year. In those same two season Mitch got paid $16 mil and $15 mil... Players don't care about cap, they care about salary.

 

[justashadowof]

William Nylander and Rasmus Sandin have the same agent, btw.

In actuality Sandin is getting paid more than Liljegren because he's getting $1.4M a year earlier than Liljegren did. This definitely could have been settled months ago.

I guess somebody is going on the LTIR.

 

[CanadasTeam]

Dubas never ever said he wouldn't be traded, what he said was

“The discussion that William and I had had a couple of times was a fear of his was that I think especially as it went on into October and November and obviously the deadline was looming and there began to be rumors of trades and more and more teams were calling the fear was that he would be signed and traded, that he was being signed to be traded and my discussion with him I just affirmed my intention with him that was not our intention whatsoever. Our intention was as long as I was here that I saw him as a part of the Toronto Maple Leafs.”​

Projecting your vision of what you see and an agreement to not trade a player are two completely different things.

Whatever you want to call it (projecting your vision) still boils down to affirming the player:

"In his first session with the Toronto media since signing a new contract, William Nylander revealed that general manager Kyle Dubas pledged to him on multiple occasions that as long as he's running the Maple Leafs, the Swede won't be traded."

Dubas to Nylander: As long as I'm here, you won't be traded - TSN.ca

TSN Toronto reporter Mark Masters checks in daily with news and notes on the Maple Leafs. The Maple Leafs practised on Monday at the MasterCard Centre before travelling to Buffalo.

www.tsn.ca

 

[Dekes For Days]

You're wrong on both and clearly don't understand how negotiations work. A limited NTC for a guy like Mrazek (plus that awful AAV) was a mistep and its clear he caved in negotiations in order to get a back up which he never did in the past. Who in their right mind would give that? He gave it because he was in a bidding war for him and wanted him. Not that difficult to understand. It back fired and he corrected it in the off-season. Marner's contract was an overpay at the time and Dubas came up right before training camp because he didnt want another Nylander situation. Maybe you dont understand what caving means by definition but its pretty common in negotiations depending where the leverage is.

The only one not understanding how negotiations work here is you. Marner's contract was not an overpay at the time. His contract is consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts, based on his pre-signing period, and that has been proven countless times. He was an elite 21-year old two-way forward, who played and was excellent in all situations (ES, PP, and PK), coming off production in his overall pre-signing period that compared with the best of the best in the cap era, and coming off one of the best pre-signing ELC seasons ever. If you think he was worth less, that's you not understanding how good and valuable he was. As for Mrazek, there's nothing wrong or unusual about a goalie like him getting that AAV and a 10-team NTC in UFA.

In a normal negotiation, both sides start at a figure, and then move towards a central figure. "Caving" suggests that the GM moved significantly off their figure and simply went with the player's figure. There is zero indication that Dubas did that in either, and there was nothing wrong or unusual with either contract you're referencing.

If anything, this Sandin negotiation is the unusual one, because unlike a normal negotiation where you converge towards common ground, the leverage dynamic here allowed Dubas to take a hardline stance and seemingly not move at all. That doesn't suddenly mean that every negotiation that isn't like that (or any contract you don't personally like or understand) is the GM caving.

 

[The Masters]

Sure you can try to negotiate with Marner and Matthews but they don't need to negotiate with Dubas. they both know if they walk this team is no better than Ottawa is now. They have 95% of the leverage. Austin's contract expires the season after next, Marner gets to wait and see what Matthews gets and his contract demands will springboard off Matthews contract. Matthews is going to expect to be paid more than MacKinnon ($12.6 mil per). Marner is going to be expect to be paid as well as Matthews. You can beg both to give you a break because of the hard cap but both are going to tell Dubas, the hard cap sounds like a you problem not a me problem. There are very few players in Matthews and Marners stratosphere, they will dictate terms.

I'm sure there are teams that would offer both players the max, $16.5 mil. Heck in 2019-20 and 2020-21, Matthews salary was $15.9 mil, he's already got the taste of what it means to make 16 mil per year. In those same two season Mitch got paid $16 mil and $15 mil... Players don't care about cap, they care about salary.

No one is negotiating with Matthews. As I said, he's a top 3 player in the NHL and will command whatever he wants. But the hard cap does present problems if you are giving the max to 2 players on the team as you try to fill out the rest of the roster (especially in a flat cap world) as we've seen the last few years.

 

[The Masters]

The only one not understanding how negotiations work here is you. Marner's contract was not an overpay at the time. His contract is consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts, based on his pre-signing period, and that has been proven countless times. He was an elite 21-year old forward, who played and was excellent in all situations (ES, PP, and PK), coming off production in his overall pre-signing period that compared with the best of the best in the cap era, and coming off one of the best pre-signing ELC seasons ever. If you think he was worth less, that's you not understanding how good and valuable he was. As for Mrazek, there's nothing wrong or unusual about a goalie like him getting that AAV and a 10-team NTC in UFA.

In a normal negotiation, both sides start at a figure, and then move towards a central figure. "Caving" suggests that the GM moved significantly off their figure and simply went with the player's figure. There is zero indication that Dubas did that in either, and there was nothing wrong or unusual with either contract you're referencing.

If anything, this Sandin negotiation is the unusual one, because unlike a normal negotiation where you converge towards common ground, the leverage dynamic here allowed Dubas to take a hardline stance and seemingly not move at all. That doesn't suddenly mean that every negotiation that isn't like that (or any contract you don't personally like or understand) is the GM caving.

Nope. You don't really understand what went on in either scenario lol.

Marner's contract was clearly an overpay at the time. I think you may have just woken up and biased based on his play the last few years but he did cave in the negotiations at the time and wanted marner for the start of training camp. Dubas went up to Marner's number - that is a cave. Have a read. I just found this but these were the reports back then.

Just when you think a magician has no tricks left, he pulls another bunny from the hat, In Dubas’s case; another extension of a big player. Unfortunately, that doesn’t mean the trick was good. Heck, it wasn’t.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad Marner is still a Toronto Maple Leaf, relieved even.

The contract, however, is horrible. Not to mention it took Dubas 3 month’s to cave and end up paying Marner what he wanted anyway, seriously? He could’ve spared everyone nerve-wracking moments and just offered him the amount from the start.

Dubas kept his word, he managed to sign them all under the salary cap, by doing that he surprised probably even himself, but he definitely dropped the ball on the last one. Marner is a $9.5 million per year winger at most, no growth in the salary cap is going to make that go away. It’s not a team-friendly deal now, nor is it going to be, ever.

One 94 points season is not enough to justify the amount Marner will now be paid the coming 6 years. Compared to contract like those of Kucherov, Kane and even Pastrnak; the Toronto Maple Leafs are overpaying Marner.

If you think giving Mrazek a LNTC is fine, you are looking even worse. That was a bad deal and he caved to throw that in to get his back up goalie. Not sure why you are dismissing that like its nothing. You are because you don't have an argument for it and dont want to admit he caved in that scenario. But that's fine.

The Sandin negotiation was pretty much perfect because he took the same deal he was offered in June. No issue there and Dubas won that negotiation. He's getting better at negotiating deals and thats most important.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

For people still hung up on Marner, start the conversation with the list of ELC players to outperform Marner the last 30 years.

 

[ACC1224]

For people still hung up on Marner, start the conversation with the list of ELC players to outperform Marner the last 30 years.

He's worth every penny.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Nope. You don't really understand what went on in either scenario lol.

Marner's contract was clearly an overpay at the time. I think you may have just woken up and biased based on his play the last few years but he did cave in the negotiations at the time and wanted marner for the start of training camp. Dubas went up to Marner's number - that is a cave.

If you think giving Mrazek a LNTC is fine, you are looking even worse. That was a bad deal and he caved to throw that in to get his back up goalie. Not sure why you are dismissing that like its nothing. You are because you don't have an argument for it and dont want to admit he caved in that scenario. But that's fine.

I understand perfectly what went on in each scenario. Marner's contract was not an overpay at the time. That's a fact that has been extensively proven. It was consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts (which you clearly have not researched). He received the 10th highest value post-ELC contract in the cap era, and based on his pre-signing period, he actually earned about the 6th best. Dubas did not just go up to Marner's number. They negotiated towards a central figure, which is how negotiations work. A goalie like Mrazek getting that AAV and a 10-team NTC in UFA is not unusual at all. That is indicative of a normal UFA negotiation, not caving.

You have provided zero evidence that Dubas caved in either of those situations. You have just made baseless assumptions and claims based entirely on your personal feelings about the entirely normal resulting contracts. Not every negotiation can be like this Sandin one where Sandin had very little leverage.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

That doesn't matter. In the end it looks like sandin got 100k extra on his QO. Not sure if true maybe it was always 1.2 and 1.6 but no way to know. 100k is a lot of money not sure why people laugh about it. Go try make 100k see how hard it is.

What matters is that Gross seems to be able to not create bad blood while him and client exhausts all patience. He at least gives a long window where some more money or benefits can be juiced and if it fails you spin back to the deal you're also okay with made back in July. That's not a stupid GM (oops, agent)just people who are entitled when it comes to their patience.

Sandin's qualifying offer is completely meaningless. He won't be making that money unless something goes very wrong for him

 

[Hellcat]

Whatever you want to call it (projecting your vision) still boils down to affirming the player:

"In his first session with the Toronto media since signing a new contract, William Nylander revealed that general manager Kyle Dubas pledged to him on multiple occasions that as long as he's running the Maple Leafs, the Swede won't be traded."

Dubas to Nylander: As long as I'm here, you won't be traded - TSN.ca

TSN Toronto reporter Mark Masters checks in daily with news and notes on the Maple Leafs. The Maple Leafs practised on Monday at the MasterCard Centre before travelling to Buffalo.

www.tsn.ca

People hear what they want to hear, humans are notoriously bad listeners. What Dubas said he told Willie and what Willie heard are clearly two different things, what is important is what Dubas said, he's the guy who has the power to trade Willie.

 

[DarkKnight]

Yeah, another learning moment, to be expected when you hire someone with no past experience.
I think he has learned to be more careful when speaking after that one.

And he didn’t even travel to Europe this time to make sure Sandin’s feelings weren’t hurt.

 

[ShaneFalco]

And he didn’t even travel to Europe this time to make sure Sandin’s feelings weren’t hurt.

But I'm sure Sandin mentioned that he cares deeply. And that's all that matters in Leaf land these days.

 

[GrizzLeaf]

I'll never understand some so called fans.

Just enjoy the fact that he's signed at a great number and can still get some time in camp before the season starts.

Dubas did good in signing him at that price. And as others have said, both Sandin and his agent knew they, at worst, would get this particular deal. Why blame them for taking a shot at a better deal? As we hear all the time, hockey is a business.

I deff give Sandin and his agent credit for realising that this moment in time is the best opportunity he has to sign and get to camp. Some agents and players might have played it out well past what makes sense.

Credit to both camps for getting it done.

 

[NastyKnies]

Thank f***

 

[Leaf Fans]

He never caved to Nylander. It's literally the exact opposite. He held firm at his price point that worked for the team, and Nylander, by his own admission, called him up and took his offer in the last minutes.

Who are you going to believe? Nylander or a hockey's future poster? The answer should be obvious as we are on the board.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

People hear what they want to hear, humans are notoriously bad listeners. What Dubas said he told Willie and what Willie heard are clearly two different things, what is important is what Dubas said, he's the guy who has the power to trade Willie.

I've been forever baffled since day one where people get the concept that Nylander has a guarantee from? Of course that's like a GM saying they are interested in #1 overall and people reading that as they are guaranteeing they will land it at all costs.

 

[123offtheglass]

 

[zeke]

I think 178 was his draft day weight, no last year's weight.

actually even some of his draft day profiles had him at 190 already back then,

 

[DarkKnight]

I think 178 was his draft day weight, no last year's weight.

actually even some of his draft day profiles had him at 190 already back then,

You should contact him and tell him he’s mistaken about his weight gain. Nice try Rasmus!

 

[zeke]

You should contact him and tell him he’s mistaken about his weight gain. Nice try Rasmus!

That was probably Alter adding in his hockeydb weight after ras told him he was at 194 now.

 

[DarkKnight]

That was probably Alter adding in his hockeydb weight after ras told him he was at 194 now.

The article said he was listed at that last year.

 

[zeke]

The article said he was listed at that last year.

Yeah exactly I don't think Ras said he was 178 last year he just told them that he was up at 194 this year and they looked up his listed weight from last year and added it in.

Of course he was listed over 180lbs on most sites last year.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I disagree with the notion that Giordano needs to be load managed because he’s 39. If Giordano can play 82, he can play 82. You load manage if a player is clearly on a decline or physically they cannot keep up with the physical demands of the game anymore. By all accounts Giordano despite his age is one of the guys on our team that is in the best shape. Additionally his skating has not dropped off significantly. Reducing minutes nightly is a great way to help maintain longevity, but being older doesn’t automatically equate to needing to be load managed. It’s really a case by case scenario based on many different factors. Some players definitely need it, but others don’t. I think Gio falls into the later, would it benefit him? Potentially, but it’s not like if he plays 82 he’s going to fall off a cliff

Gio started his NHL career late and has barely played any playoff games. He's got less mileage on him than guys 5+ year younger than him. I'd be more worried about a Hedman or Pietrangelo dealing with nagging injuries they got on deep playoff runs where they were targeted for 4 rounds.

 

[Hellcat]

Adding bulk to a small frame is not always a good thing, people get this misguided focus on size, size, size .. gotta be over 6 foot, gotta be over 200lbs .. I'd rather a 185 lbs Rasmus that has improved his first step and decision making vs a bulky Rasmus with the same poor first step. It's not his size that was his problem last year, it was him pinching when he should have fallen back, it was his getting beaten in a foot race. He needs to improve his hockey IQ not the number on the scale. Don't take that as me saying Rasmus is a bad hockey player, he's not but he does have a few youthful inexperience warts to his game that he needs to focus on before he focuses on bulking up.

There is also the increased risk of injury if you bulk up the wrong way. I'm sure the sports science department was watching him closely but when people say they bulk up quickly, it always raises concerns in my mind.

With all that said, it looks like the Leafs have focused on their base, Marner gained bulk, Rasmus gained bulk, Robertson gained significant lower body bulk, other players look like tree trunks from the waist down. Leafs are really committing to the "get the puck and never give it up" mentality. (The stronger your base is the more you improve your chances to come out of a 50/50 standing up and with the puck.)