Salary Cap: Salary Cap Summer | The Hunt for 3C | Updated cap info in Post #1

[Honour Over Glory]

Rutherford's moves this offseason strike me far more closer to 2014 than 2015 or 16.

Who exactly do you see us acquiring that could have a Bonino like effect here for the pieces we gave up for him? We are going to have to move big picks or major pieces to fill in a player like Bonino's role with the team especially with teams like the Islanders, Columbus, Montreal, etc.

Also, like Honour said we are back to back champs. Nobody is looking to help us out let alone as a team that they want to see get stronger.

The only benefit we have as back 2 back champs is maybe getting an older veteran player to play for 1yr on a cheap deal, the problem is most are wingers and the only 2 half decent C's are Jokinen and Cullen and the latter seems like he's probably going to end up in Minnesota (maybe Pittsburgh because he supposedly said it, but we all know how much that means with anyone) or just retire.

That leaves the trade option, teams will want to gouge the Pens in any deal.

When you've beaten everyone to get to the top, you have very little friends. Worth it, of course, to be at the top, but man does it suck when you need to fill a spot and no one is ready from within. Remember the Hawks after their cups? They lost key player after key player for picks or nothing.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I like Sheary, but on the other hand, I am also weary of more than a 2yr deal for him if he isn't able to produce away from Crosby. A guy like Guentzel would produce on virtually any line on this team because he's not just talented and hard working, but that brain of his is what separates him from a lot of the wingers on this team. I mean for example, imagine Yakupov if he thought the game like Guentzel, he'd be the next Kovalchuk.

Weighing all options...if we lose Sheary, we still have Hornqvist and Kessel as well as Rust and now Reaves to anchor that 4th line and Archibald as a back-up. For prospects, we have Sprong.

For a 3C? We thought Sundqvist would be it, but 2yrs of games up on the big club, the guy impressed as much as Derrick Pouliot, less even. Who's next? Rowney seems like he could be a decent 4C for a few years, word is still out on Bluegers, Simon, and others. If Sheary is the person a team wants for their young-ish 3C that can grow on this team, then thank's for the memories Shears, I wish you the best of luck on your new team kiddo.

That is if it comes down to that.

 

[WayneSid9987]

JR's gonna search and get a longer term solution.
In fact the potential UFA C list next summer is almost worth it to wait + the potential RNH option with EDM's impending cap crunch.
Some of those may be available at the deadline.
Slow play it. Don't panic.
Wait for Sakic's decision.
Wait for Cullen's decision.
Pay a dirt cheap vet to fill in on a 1yr deal if need be.
Let Sam Ventura do the homework to land the most effective guy longer term.

JR's proved here in PIT he's willing to be patient then pounce on the target he really wants.
First season he brought in some vets on 1yr deals. Comeau, Erhoff, Downie and bought a valuable asset in Perron.
Second season, Phil became available. Pounced. Bones became available. Pounced. Hags and Daley became available mid-season. Pounced.

Right now, he's probably pouncing on Duchene and waiting to see what the final outcome is there.
If nothing happens, he'll gladly look at a cheap vet for a stop gap, imo or move on to a guy he can trade for that can play well enough in the meantime and still remain a valuable/moveable asset like Perron was.

 

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

Before Guentzel with Sid, no one knew what a winger that thought the game like him would look like on his LW, then we do, and now people are ok with him being moved to 3C duties and go back to Sheary who doesn't think the game like Crosby and that's ok? Because it worked? One worked fairly well, the other worked insanely well.


That's like eating steak at ****ing Denny's all your life, then finally tasting an expensive cut of beef and saying you know what, if I had the option of either and money wasn't the issue, I am ok with the Denny's cut.

That's just ****ing stupid, mate.

On the other hand, using Guentzel as a C opens up the possibility of having three top scoring lines, which has also worked insanely well. I think it's something that they should seriously consider, now that what they did last year (two top scoring lines and two secondary scoring lines) is impossible. Swapping Cullen off the fourth line and Reaves onto it pretty much means the 4th line can't be a secondary scoring line. It's a stupid grinder line now.

Guentzel with Crosby is more fun to watch. Is it actually more productive, though? Ultimately, I only care about winning hockey games, not whether Crosby has his perfect linemate. The change certainly doesn't effect Crosby's production as much as it effects how the line looks, if it does so at all. If Guentzel to C makes the Crosby line a little less productive but gives the team three top scoring lines, I say it's a serious consideration. If it doesn't effect the line's production, then I say it's a no-brainer.

 

[Peat]

Rutherford's moves this offseason strike me far more closer to 2014 than 2015 or 16.

Who exactly do you see us acquiring that could have a Bonino like effect here for the pieces we gave up for him? We are going to have to move big picks or major pieces to fill in a player like Bonino's role with the team especially with teams like the Islanders, Columbus, Montreal, etc.

Also, like Honour said we are back to back champs. Nobody is looking to help us out let alone as a team that they want to see get stronger.

Sorry to be that guy but I don't really feel like going through every post full of 3C speculation I've made.

In any case, my argument is I trust the GM. He's the one paid to do it and he's done a fantastic job recently. He said he had five potential trades lined up the other day, I trust him to get one done. The cost? We'll see. Again, I trust him to have worked out ahead of time whether it would be tolerable and sign Bonino if it wasn't.

I don't think your points are baseless but with Rutherford, I don't think they're good odds to happen.

Is it actually more productive, though?

Pretty sure the wingers who did the best things for Sid's numbers last season were Sheary and Horny.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

JR's gonna search and get a longer term solution.
In fact the potential UFA C list next summer is almost worth it to wait + the potential RNH option with EDM's impending cap crunch.
Some of those may be available at the deadline.
Slow play it. Don't panic.
Wait for Sakic's decision.
Wait for Cullen's decision.
Pay a dirt cheap vet to fill in on a 1yr deal if need be.
Let Sam Ventura do the homework to land the most effective guy longer term.

Most of the guys you're licking your chops about for the free agency pool are going to go for the big contracts.

You also forget that the team will need to sign quite a few guys in 2018. Here's the list.

Hornqvist is a UFA
Rust is an RFA
Wilson is an RFA
Kuhnhackl is an RFA
Reaves is UFA
Cole is UFA
Guentzel will need his extension as he will be on his final year, still RFA after that.


It would actually be smarter to sort it out now, because the 3C isn't the only problem this team has. It still needs to address the defense and the depth. As it stands, we lost Daley as the only real regular for most of last season and replaced him with Matt Hunwick. Even before that, when Daley and Letang were out, the team went out and traded for Streit and Hainsey and ended up playing Ruhwedel more than Streit and Hainsey was hit or miss most of the time. That's a step backwards. Even if Schultz, Dumo & Maatta get (even) better next year, it still leaves a weak 3rd pair.

Unless absolutely no one was paying attention to the Preds this post season vs the Pens, having a solid top 4 is nice, but you eventually have to ice that 3rd pair and man can it be damaging if that 3rd pair is weak. We got fairly lucky. That won't happen again.

I think we're virtually good to go everywhere else, but we need that 3rd pair to be stronger on D and that 3C job is insanely important. On a team that struggles with injuries to key players, that 3C is more than just a 3C, that's a potential 2nd or 1st line C on this team.

 

[deakka]

When did guentzel last play center tho? How is he at faceoffs? Is his defensive game good enough for the NHL as a center?

We have to remember that our 3c and 4c need to kill penalties too. If we dont wanna start put sid or geno out there...

 

[Honour Over Glory]

On the other hand, using Guentzel as a C opens up the possibility of having three top scoring lines, which has also worked insanely well. I think it's something that they should seriously consider, now that what they did last year (two top scoring lines and two secondary scoring lines) is impossible. Swapping Cullen off the fourth line and Reaves onto it pretty much means the 4th line can't be a secondary scoring line. It's a stupid grinder line now.

Guentzel with Crosby is more fun to watch. Is it actually more productive, though? Ultimately, I only care about winning hockey games, not whether Crosby has his perfect linemate. The change certainly doesn't effect Crosby's production as much as it effects how the line looks, if it does so at all. If Guentzel to C makes the Crosby line a little less productive but gives the team three top scoring lines, I say it's a serious consideration. If it doesn't effect the line's production, then I say it's a no-brainer.

I can't speak for his College stats, but can you point out his production as a C? Because if that's what you think is a good option, then I am curious what his actual #'s are when he's centering a line.

Potentially seeing this as our team?

Sheary, Crosby, Hornqvist
Hageln, Malkin, Kessel
Wilson, Guentzel, Rust
Kuhnhackl, Rowney, Reaves

I don't know...If we could magically put Kessel with Guentzel, I'd be more for this, but then there's that RW gap on the 2nd line.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

When did guentzel last play center tho? How is he at faceoffs? Is his defensive game good enough for the NHL as a center?

We have to remember that our 3c and 4c need to kill penalties too. If we dont wanna start put sid or geno out there...

Yeah, I mean technically, Bryan Rust is also a Center and so is Phil Kessel, doesn't mean we should freaking use that as an option, you know?

Guentzel took 17 faceoffs this past season, won 47.1% of them. Which I mean, it was better than Malkin, Porter, and Sundqvist and 1% less effective than Bonino, but again...just 17 tries at faceoffs.

People need to remember that the Pens need a solid faceoff guy in the bottom 6. Especially when you consider Sid the last 3yrs has been sub 50% twice. Geno has never been above 50% in the regular season. Cullen is a beast at faceoffs an Bones is for the most part, fairly consistent at 47-50%.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Most of the guys you're licking your chops about for the free agency pool are going to go for the big contracts.

You also forget that the team will need to sign quite a few guys in 2018. Here's the list.

Hornqvist is a UFA
Rust is an RFA
Wilson is an RFA
Kuhnhackl is an RFA
Reaves is UFA
Cole is UFA
Guentzel will need his extension as he will be on his final year, still RFA after that.


It would actually be smarter to sort it out now, because the 3C isn't the only problem this team has. It still needs to address the defense and the depth. As it stands, we lost Daley as the only real regular for most of last season and replaced him with Matt Hunwick. Even before that, when Daley and Letang were out, the team went out and traded for Streit and Hainsey and ended up playing Ruhwedel more than Streit and Hainsey was hit or miss most of the time. That's a step backwards. Even if Schultz, Dumo & Maatta get (even) better next year, it still leaves a weak 3rd pair.

Unless absolutely no one was paying attention to the Preds this post season vs the Pens, having a solid top 4 is nice, but you eventually have to ice that 3rd pair and man can it be damaging if that 3rd pair is weak. We got fairly lucky. That won't happen again.

I think we're virtually good to go everywhere else, but we need that 3rd pair to be stronger on D and that 3C job is insanely important. On a team that struggles with injuries to key players, that 3C is more than just a 3C, that's a potential 2nd or 1st line C on this team.

Depends how you interpret "now".
JR has time to see if he lands a Duchene.
To see if other names pop up if Duchene is dealt to another team.
More names may pop up from seasons start to the 2018-TDL.
When the 15-16 season started Daley/Hagelin were securely on their teams rosters.

Who exactly do you want on D to make it better right now thats attainable?
Don't forget that getting another D likely means you either have to give Pouliot or Corrado away for peanuts or lose them to waivers.

 

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

I can't speak for his College stats, but can you point out his production as a C? Because if that's what you think is a good option, then I am curious what his actual #'s are when he's centering a line.

Potentially seeing this as our team?

Sheary, Crosby, Hornqvist
Hageln, Malkin, Kessel
Wilson, Guentzel, Rust
Kuhnhackl, Rowney, Reaves

I don't know...If we could magically put Kessel with Guentzel, I'd be more for this, but then there's that RW gap on the 2nd line.

Guentzel had 118 points in 109 games in college. Those are still college stats, but they're really good college stats. You don't see a lot of PPG seasons and careers in the NCAA, especially compared to juniors. The defenders are better coached and the goalies are older.

What do you mean by "RW gap?"

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Depends how you interpret "now".
JR has time to see if he lands a Duchene.

That's a huge if, if Sakic doesn't get his ask, he'll end up moving him a month or two into the season, by then JR should have a plan in place.

To see if other names pop up if Duchene is dealt to another team.

That's a huge risk as well, there are other teams that know they are out of the Duchene running and will likely go after those other options. That window isn't as wide open as you would like to believe. Have you looked around at teams that are trying to best the Pens? You think the Pens have the assets to win a battle against the Jackets to land Duchene? I sure as **** don't. I don't want JR to get into that bidding war either.

Rangers need some centers too, I am probably forgetting a few more teams as well, oh right, Arizona too. Teams that have better assets than we do if JR waits out the Duchene saga.

More names may pop up from seasons start to the 2018-TDL.
When the 15-16 season started Daley/Hagelin were securely on their teams rosters.

Yeah and Mike Johnston was also our coach. Those moves happened because of a coach being fired and a new philosophy/style in place on the team, a speed first approach and those two were bred for that game.

Who exactly do you want on D to make it better right now thats attainable?

We were fine for LHD, we now have an abundance of LHD, which might have us see Hunwick on the right side, or did you think he was going to get scratched at his cap hit? Because he won't. He was signed to be a regular, but his past few seasons he's been a LD for Toronto. Can you tell me when he was a RD? Is Cole back to RD? Do YOU remember when Cole was RD and how magical that was?

Don't forget that getting another D likely means you either have to give Pouliot or Corrado away for peanuts or lose them to waivers.

Ok and?

 

[deakka]

Depends how you interpret "now".
JR has time to see if he lands a Duchene.
To see if other names pop up if Duchene is dealt to another team.
More names may pop up from seasons start to the 2018-TDL.
When the 15-16 season started Daley/Hagelin were securely on their teams rosters.

Who exactly do you want on D to make it better right now thats attainable?
Don't forget that getting another D likely means you either have to give Pouliot or Corrado away for peanuts or lose them to waivers.

Corrado will get sent through waivers either way. And chances are really good he clears imo.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Guentzel had 118 points in 109 games in college. Those are still college stats, but they're really good college stats. You don't see a lot of PPG seasons and careers in the NCAA, especially compared to juniors. The defenders are better coached and the goalies are older.

What do you mean by "RW gap?"

As much as I like Rust and I am a huge Rust supporter, I don't know if I want to see a Hagelin, Malkin, Rust line for most of the season, it almost seems unfair to Geno if Guentzel gets Kessel and Sid gets Hornqvist while he gets Hagelin and Rust, both fantastic wingers, but yeah, you get my drift right?

And are those 118pts as a C? I asked what his stats were as a C. If he was a C mostly in College, then cool, let's roll with that and let's see if JR sees that as an opportunity as well.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

As I have read, wasn't he LW with Montpetit (C) and Ortega (RW)?

 

[WayneSid9987]

That's a huge if, if Sakic doesn't get his ask, he'll end up moving him a month or two into the season, by then JR should have a plan in place.


That's a huge risk as well, there are other teams that know they are out of the Duchene running and will likely go after those other options. That window isn't as wide open as you would like to believe. Have you looked around at teams that are trying to best the Pens? You think the Pens have the assets to win a battle against the Jackets to land Duchene? I sure as **** don't. I don't want JR to get into that bidding war either.

Rangers need some centers too, I am probably forgetting a few more teams as well, oh right, Arizona too. Teams that have better assets than we do if JR waits out the Duchene saga.




Yeah and Mike Johnston was also our coach. Those moves happened because of a coach being fired and a new philosophy/style in place on the team, a speed first approach and those two were bred for that game.



We were fine for LHD, we now have an abundance of LHD, which might have us see Hunwick on the right side, or did you think he was going to get scratched at his cap hit? Because he won't. He was signed to be a regular, but his past few seasons he's been a LD for Toronto. Can you tell me when he was a RD? Is Cole back to RD? Do YOU remember when Cole was RD and how magical that was?



Ok and?

Yea, i said JR would have a plan in place if Sakic keeps doing what he's doing. Either a cheap stop gap on a 1yr or a lesser trade that keeps the flexibility to pounce on a target he'd like. ie. acquiring Perron. Or simply going with what he has.

JR isn't in a bidding war for Duchene. He likely has his best offer in and thats that. But still doesn't mean he can't wait to see what options he has if Duchene is dealt to another team. But like i said above, JR will have a plan in place.

You missed the point i made about Daley/Hags.
They were 100% not available to start the 15-16 season. That was my point.

Cole can play RD quite comfortably and theres Ruhwedel and Corrado.
Maatta can do it in a pinch too.
RD isn't a huge issue.

On the Pouliot/Corrado leaving you don't much care about, i do care about.
They're good depth to have atm with the way we play.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Still think we should get a cheap player that can play center and wing. Still hoping for grigorenko or jokinen. Depending on how the 3c hunt going and how they view Rowney, they can either play center, wing or healthy scratch.

Grigorenko signed with CSKA Moscow. He's done with the NHL for now.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Also, I'm guessing we'll see action pick back up heading into this weekend. A couple big dominoes fell into place around the NHL just before the 4th of July, and I'd imagine the league will respond to those moves over the next few days.

I also believe JR is waiting to make his center acquisition until he has the RFAs signed. Any potential trade pieces could be impacted by what Dumoulin and Sheary end up signing for.

Example: Say Pens have framework of a deal with Vegas for Cody Eakin, but there are two versions. If Sheary/Dumoulin sign lesser deals, Pens take on all of Eakin's contract in return for just picks. If they're more expensive, maybe Vegas eats some of the contract in exchange for a better return.

Stuff like that could very well be in the works.

Patience.

 

[froods]

Also, I'm guessing we'll see action pick back up heading into this weekend. A couple big dominoes fell into place around the NHL just before the 4th of July, and I'd imagine the league will respond to those moves over the next few days.

I also believe JR is waiting to make his center acquisition until he has the RFAs signed. Any potential trade pieces could be impacted by what Dumoulin and Sheary end up signing for.

Example: Say Pens have framework of a deal with Vegas for Cody Eakin, but there are two versions. If Sheary/Dumoulin sign lesser deals, Pens take on all of Eakin's contract in return for just picks. If they're more expensive, maybe Vegas eats some of the contract in exchange for a better return.

Stuff like that could very well be in the works.

Patience.

Or is it the other way around? Is he waiting to sign Dumo and Sheary once he gets his 3C? Also, how does Cullen play into it? To your point, a lot of moving pieces and we need to be patient. That is very hard to do

 

[Randy Butternubs]

JR, please trade for that guy.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

JR, please trade for that guy.

What is the obsession with Antoine Vermette? A few years ago everybody here wanted him badly, and then his game went into the toilet. Now we still want him?

He makes over $1 million to win face-offs, basically. He is THIS close to becoming Manny Malhotra. Vermette's offensive game is completely gone.

He is a 4C now, no more.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Are people getting antsy? Honest question because I haven't read every page in this thread.

Which 3Cs are gone that people wanted JR to acquire that's causing all this angst? Or is it just because the Pens don't yet have a replacement for Bonino by July 4th?

Just a few

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Faksa, Tierney and Lowry are all on teams who already have a good amount of centers. Surely a reasonable move can be made for one of them.

 

[WayneSid9987]

One stat to look at for any potential 3C and something Bones was terrific at was his Takeaway to Giveaway ratio. Even with a somewhat down year last year, it was good.
The 2 years with the Pens he was basically double TK to GV.

15-16 season = 32TK 17GV PO's = 12TK 9GV
16-17 season = 41TK 24GV PO's = 15TK 6GV

Course we all know he was a good shot blocker/FO guy as well.
Just some stats to dig deeper into when looking at potential guys.

ETA: Also probably a big stat JR/his staff looked at when trading for Bones. Last season with VAN 54TK 24GV.

 

[ColePens]

It isn't about panic moves. Going into July 4th of last offseason we had both Bonino and Fehr signed to shore up our 3C and 4C. Fehr was a 4C. We have no 3C. Last year we could afford to play the waiting game with Cullen, because we effectively had two proven NHL centers. This year we can't. Desharnais and Hemsky are completely different players. Signing Desharnais to a one million dollar, one year contract is exactly the type of bargain bin signing that contenders make and your example of Guentzel, Sheary, Wilson, Rust, etc has nothing to do with that because we had winger depth that allowed those players to ease in. Having a roster with Hagelin, Kunitz, Kessel and Hornqvist all to fall back on if Sheary and Rust didn't play as well in 2016-17 helped. Having players like Wilson and Guentzel waiting in the wings also helped. We literally have nobody to fill in for the center position.

Hopefully, we make two smart moves towards the end of July like we did in 2015 in the Sutter trade and Fehr signing. The main issue is that the more we wait the more we have to trade an actual roster player versus signing a UFA for free. Whatever. This board always thinks I'm an idiot.

Pixie - since you are one of maybe 5 complaining about this offseason, what are your thoughts on below and can you explain why you are not being patient when the following happened:

Just a reminder: Rutherford didn't make the Sutter-Bonino trade until July 28, 2015. The man is patient.

In addition Cully was signed in August