Sabres Management and Coaching Thread

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I addressed multiply things you put forth. If you don't want to respond to what I posted that's fine. But spare me this nonsense that there wasn't anything to reply to.




Who cares? This is another of your pointless statements/arguments.

The question should be,

Is this current roster playing to its potential? If not, then why is that the case?
If tactics matter so much why do fired coaches keep getting jobs?

No one can ever answer this question for me. No one ever responds to me when I say fired coaches win cups.

Most fanbases say the same stuff when their teams aren't playing well.

The great thing about having Ruff here for so long is we got to see Ruff evolve from a good coach to a bad coach and back to a good coach and back to a bad coach. We got to see him develop young players and and also ruin young players.

Fans were all over the place with praise and criticism of Ruff over the years.

People really want me to believe coaches somehow forget how to be successful? No. The quality of the players change.

Bylsma and Ruff are similar IMO. Both coaches walked into winning teams. Both coaches won immediately with those teams. Bylsma continued to win because the team continued to be talented. Ruff had down stretches because the talent changed constantly. I don't know how many captains Ruff had.

So part of my thinking that coaches have much less impact on the game then GM's/players is because of the Ruff era. Also I look around the league and there are fired coaches everywhere winning and having success.

It may be a flawed argument but I don't think I will ever change my position.
 
No problem with this, but where is the tough love for the other players?

Agreed.

It's fine to be tough on a young player, even one as talented as Eichel. As talented as he is, and as much as he has improved this year, there are still things he needs to work on.

However, tough love has to have a purpose. You can't be tough on someone just to flex your manly muscles. Also, you need consistency. If you are going to bench Eichel for making a mistake or two, you also need to do the same for others in similar situations. When you don't, it defeats the purpose and sends the wrong message.
 
If tactics matter so much why do fired coaches keep getting jobs?

No one can ever answer this question for me. No one ever responds to me when I say fired coaches win cups.

Most fanbases say the same stuff when their teams aren't playing well.

The great thing about having Ruff here for so long is we got to see Ruff evolve from a good coach to a bad coach and back to a good coach and back to a bad coach. We got to see him develop young players and and also ruin young players.

Fans were all over the place with praise and criticism of Ruff over the years.

People really want me to believe coaches somehow forget how to be successful? No. The quality of the players change.

Bylsma and Ruff are similar IMO. Both coaches walked into winning teams. Both coaches won immediately with those teams. Bylsma continued to win because the team continued to be talented. Ruff had down stretches because the talent changed constantly. I don't know how many captains Ruff had.

So part of my thinking that coaches have much less impact on the game then GM's/players is because of the Ruff era. Also I look around the league and there are fired coaches everywhere winning and having success.

It may be a flawed argument but I don't think I will ever change my position.

For me, building a good team is like cooking a dish.

Coaches and players are ingredients. In some cases, a coach just doesn't work with the players on that team at that time.

In some cases the coach can make a team more than the sum of it's parts.

And in some cases, the players are so good that they make the coach look better than he really is.

The fact that the Sabres now look like Penguins at the end of Bylsma's tenure leads me to believe that the sooner Bylsma is replaced, the better.

And I a few months ago, I was all about being patient with Bylsma. But, that ship has sailed for me.
 
If tactics matter so much why do fired coaches keep getting jobs?

No one can ever answer this question for me. No one ever responds to me when I say fired coaches win cups.

Most fanbases say the same stuff when their teams aren't playing well.

The great thing about having Ruff here for so long is we got to see Ruff evolve from a good coach to a bad coach and back to a good coach and back to a bad coach. We got to see him develop young players and and also ruin young players.

Fans were all over the place with praise and criticism of Ruff over the years.

People really want me to believe coaches somehow forget how to be successful? No. The quality of the players change.

Bylsma and Ruff are similar IMO. Both coaches walked into winning teams. Both coaches won immediately with those teams. Bylsma continued to win because the team continued to be talented. Ruff had down stretches because the talent changed constantly. I don't know how many captains Ruff had.

So part of my thinking that coaches have much less impact on the game then GM's/players is because of the Ruff era. Also I look around the league and there are fired coaches everywhere winning and having success.

It may be a flawed argument but I don't think I will ever change my position.

Not every coach gets fired for the same reason. Once again you overgeneralize.
 
If tactics matter so much why do fired coaches keep getting jobs?

No one can ever answer this question for me. No one ever responds to me when I say fired coaches win cups.

Because GMs are afraid to take a chance on something new, so they would prefer to go with "proven" talent. It happens in all the major sports.
 
Not every coach gets fired for the same reason. Once again you overgeneralize.

Should we go around and read boards from every team out of the playoffs? Maybe not every coach, but you have to admit the majority are fired for the same reasons, at least the same reasons fans complain about.
 
The problem here is a system problem, which was the same problems he had in his previous stint, and has only changed for maybe one period at a time throughout this whole season, before going back to this useless system that makes them look silly and get frustrated playing.
 
The dum dum talk on this thread is only made stronger by the willful desire to push said dum dum beliefs, without evidence or thought put in to dum dum arguments. Followed by confused indignation.

We don't need moderators to protect posters from moderate name calling, we need them to protect the forum from utter thought pollution.
 
Should we go around and read boards from every team out of the playoffs? Maybe not every coach, but you have to admit the majority are fired for the same reasons, at least the same reasons fans complain about.

Name something Dan Bylsma does well.
 
So what is the difference in performance that a team can expect to get out of a top tier coach versus a poor coach? Talking in general terms and also if you want Bylsma as well.

If you took a coach in the top five coaches and put them on a team to replace a bottom five coach and could re-run the season what would the difference be in terms of wins? Is a 5 game spread reasonable?
 
Because GMs are afraid to take a chance on something new, so they would prefer to go with "proven" talent. It happens in all the major sports.

Baseball and hockey by far the most retreads.

I dont think GMs actually hire systems. So if thats the case, how important are systems?
 
The dum dum talk on this thread is only made stronger by the willful desire to push said dum dum beliefs, without evidence or thought put in to dum dum arguments. Followed by confused indignation.

We don't need moderators to protect posters from moderate name calling, we need them to protect the forum from utter thought pollution.
I'm guessing I'm one of the posters with the dum dum beliefs.
 
Job that prioritizes experience with 31 opportunities to gain said experience has issues with retreads, more at 11.

So GM's prefer experience over system? That's what you're saying? Do you think dump and chase and long stretch passes were even brought up when Bylsma interviewed for the Sabres job?
 
So GM's prefer experience over system? That's what you're saying? Do you think dump and chase and long stretch passes were even brought up when Bylsma interviewed for the Sabres job?

I'd say the expectation for an NHL coach does not include having one particular system you're married to regardless of provided personnel. Coaches are hired to get the most out of the roster. GMs don't care how the coach does that, only that he does.
 
If tactics matter so much why do fired coaches keep getting jobs?

No one can ever answer this question for me. No one ever responds to me when I say fired coaches win cups.


Most fanbases say the same stuff when their teams aren't playing well.

The great thing about having Ruff here for so long is we got to see Ruff evolve from a good coach to a bad coach and back to a good coach and back to a bad coach. We got to see him develop young players and and also ruin young players.

Fans were all over the place with praise and criticism of Ruff over the years.

People really want me to believe coaches somehow forget how to be successful? No. The quality of the players change.

Bylsma and Ruff are similar IMO. Both coaches walked into winning teams. Both coaches won immediately with those teams. Bylsma continued to win because the team continued to be talented. Ruff had down stretches because the talent changed constantly. I don't know how many captains Ruff had.

So part of my thinking that coaches have much less impact on the game then GM's/players is because of the Ruff era. Also I look around the league and there are fired coaches everywhere winning and having success.

It may be a flawed argument but I don't think I will ever change my position.

Sorry for the wall of text

Coaches aren't fired JUST because of tactics. They are fired for a collection of things. The coach could be fired because he doesn't fit with the players, he has serious issues personally/professionally with the players, the GM might not like him and his handling of players in development situations. They may get fired for a multitude of issues that are behind closed doors. But with all those issues, teams may feel that they might have the right combination of factors that might make that coach workable for their team.

We're not calling Bylsma's firing for JUST tactics. We're calling for his firing because of a collection of things. His tactics/system is a big part of it, and if he actually changed it up and learned from his own system, then there would be a smaller amount of people calling for his head on that basis.

His inability or refusal to change spreads through so many issues wrong with this team. From his refusal to tweak or accept the fact that the player personnel he has to work with doesn't mesh with his system, to the idea that pairs are the way to go, and constantly leads to circumstances that may not be best for the players/team. For example, Bylsma's thinking Reinhart needs to be with Eichel or ROR, is limiting the combinations and not allowing him to use Reinhart as a center, because Reinhart is a top 6 talent(which I think he is, but doesn't mean he needs to be used exclusively in the top 6). Only time Reinhart is allowed to play center, seems to be when there are injuries, and even then he there are times he uses players who shouldn't be used as centers(E-Rod, Ennis) as centers. Those type of decisions are decisions that affect the development of the players(see: What he was brought in here to accomplish) and a big reason why so many people are down on Bylsma.

Both Ruff and Byslma walked into Stanley Cup contending rosters. What the difference was with Ruff and Bylsma was that one had a GM who was fiercely loyal to Ruff and even at the times of bad times, Ruff had the trust of the GM who believed Ruff would be able to mentor our team in the rebuilding/re-tooling years(2001-2003) and what made Ruff and the post-lockout teams of 2005-2007 so effective was Ruff's ability to adapt to the roster Darcy was able to put together regardless of the year. Ruff played a more wide open style that allowed the players to use their skill and natural ability. Yes it helped he had talented players, but he was able to adapt to bring more out of his team. He learned year to year. For example he used Roy in a shutdown role in 2005-2006, and used him more in an offensive role the next year when he was with Vanek and Afinogenov.

Ruff was fired because he lost the locker room. Darcy felt he brought the most out of the players that he could and after 17 years needed a new boss behind the bench. Coaches usually don't last that long.

People are able to break down the system and see the ineffectiveness of the system regardless of the talent level of the players. For Bylsma, at the point where Crosby and co were in their development they were already Stanley Cup Contenders so they had some experience to their resume, and were afforded much more freedom when they were able to get off track from his system. When their talented was able to shine through that's when they were at their best. But when the playoffs come around and there's a more reliance on tighter defense play and coaching decisions, Bylsma failed for the majority of the time and was quickly found out after the Stanley Cup.

Now the reason why Bylsma, a Stanley Cup winner who was fired, was hired by the Buffalo Sabres, and he went on record about this, was because he took the year off and he was able to learn more about the game. Day 1, he implements a system that was criticized by those in hockey communities, and Day 656 We're looking at the same system. Why we are expecting different results with the same experiment is insanity.
 
Gerard Gallant
Marc Crawford
Paul MacLean
Bob Hartley
Kevin Dineen
Adam Oates
John Stevens
Ralph Krueger
Todd Nelson
Travis Green
Sheldon Keefe
Todd Reirden
Kirk Muller
Gilles Bouchard
Ryan Huska
Kris Knoblach
 
So GM's prefer experience over system? That's what you're saying? Do you think dump and chase and long stretch passes were even brought up when Bylsma interviewed for the Sabres job?
I'm saying that "NHL coaches keep getting re-hired" isn't a valid argument when experience is a virtual prerequisite and there aren't many avenues to get it.

And Bylsma's has frequently and eloquently discussed modern tactics and his own failings - even in regards to Risto and O'Reilly. His issue is putting that stuff into practice, not talking about it.

Also, Bylsma's system is fine. It's not perfect but it's fine. His main failings are that he doesn't have an audible when teams sit on the stretch pass, makes life harder for all his top talent, and repeatedly bets on the wrong supporting guys.
 
Ruff was fired because he didn't want to tank and play young players just because the GM wanted to see them play, and the GM respected him too much to force him to do that. Then they brought in Nolan to do exactly that, since nobody really actually respected him.

Problem was Babcock left us in the dirt and they scrambled. Signing an unknown, high risk coach would have lost the fanbase at that point. Just like with the hiring of Rex, Pegula was not willing to take those risks back 2 years ago. He's learned as an owner in football and canned the huge mistake that was Rex, the same needs to happen in hockey.
 
I'd say the expectation for an NHL coach does not include having one particular system you're married to regardless of provided personnel. Coaches are hired to get the most out of the roster. GMs don't care how the coach does that, only that he does.

I think that is it. Is Bylsma getting the most out of this roster? Probably not, but its hard to know because they haven't won anything. This also may be protecting Bylsma. We have heard Murray say multiple times they have to learn to win. So take a team like Pittsburgh that knows how to win, when they lose it falls on the coach.

I found a good quote from the Pens GM on why Sullivan is winning. The last part is what caught my attention. He has good system yes, but Rutherford adds "that's work."

By the way I dont think Murray could say any of this about Bylsma.

“He connects well with the players. He communicates well. He holds them accountable. He has a good system that’s worked. Makes sense.â€
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/...livan-contract-extension/stories/201612260100
 
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