Value of: Ryan Nugent Hopkins to Boston

[SundherDome]

It's also a message board where precedent has been set for locking outlandish and one sided discussions, but whatever.

For Edmonton, unless it's Nuge (or Nuge+ in all fairness) for McAvoy, it's hard to see the point in discussing it. And there is no reason for Boston to consider that move.

How is it outlandish and one sided, jfc

 

[Viqsi]

How is it outlandish and one sided, jfc

Because RNH is indespensible to the Oilers; he has particularly high value to that team in particular, whereas on just about any other team (or if he always had to drive things himself and be The Guy) he'd be considered Good But Expendable. Folks want to believe that the latter - since it applies on more teams - is the true market value to get him, but that's not the case because those teams don't own him; Edmonton does, and they're not looking to sell (they're the ones you have to convince), so their opinion is the one that matters. The gap is an irreconcilable one.

See also: the number of sour grapes types who kept whining about how Boone Jenner was "the most overrated player ever" when we kept telling them he just wasn't available. It's a common pattern for certain players who just fit especially well with certain team circumstances, and yet there's always at least some folks who just absolutely refuse to believe that such a thing could ever be possible and get really offended when you don't buckle down in the face of their arguments.

 

[SundherDome]

Because RNH is indespensible to the Oilers; he has particularly high value to that team in particular, whereas on just about any other team (or if he always had to drive things himself and be The Guy) he'd be considered Good But Expendable. Folks want to believe that the latter - since it applies on more teams - is the true market value to get him, but that's not the case because those teams don't own him; Edmonton does, and they're not looking to sell (they're the ones you have to convince), so their opinion is the one that matters. The gap is an irreconcilable one.

See also: the number of sour grapes types who kept whining about how Boone Jenner was "the most overrated player ever" when we kept telling them he just wasn't available. It's a common pattern for certain players who just fit especially well with certain team circumstances, and yet there's always at least some folks who just absolutely refuse to believe that such a thing could ever be possible and get really offended when you don't buckle down in the face of their arguments.

My issue is this is a community message board and someone asked the value. Even if the value, as you pointed out, is ridiculous. It shouldn't matter if it is poor value or impossible value, a discussion should still be able to be had around it. Nobody should be saying to lock up the thread because a certain players value was inquired.

 

[iCanada]

That's an insane ask for a #2C that doesn't really excel at anything sans being the third most important piece to an all time power play.

But agree its not happening so not worth discussing.

He's definitely not the third most important piece on that pp, I'd honestly probably argue he's the most important piece.

He's the lynch pin that makes the Oilers PP tick. The Oilers PP drops higher percentage when he's out by a factor of two compared to one of McDavid or Draisaitl being out. Oilers PP is ~14 GF/60 normally. You take out Nuge? 7 GF/60. You take out one of McDavid or Draisaitl? 10 GF/60.

McDavid or Draisaitl on their own could be the qb of an elite PP. The reason the oilers PP is so good though is because RNH let's them both shine.

A Draisaitl PP would look a lot like the Washington pp has for years. Drai standing in his office ripping one timers. A McDavid PP would look like the Hawks PP where you have a focus on creating and winning small 2 on 1s, creating 4 on 3s or 3 on 2s for strong scoring chances.

RNH let's the oilers PP be both of those at the same time. Normally you can't because large amount of movements are required for one, and static positioning is required for the other. Trying to do both typically means you suck at one and lose possession, or you are very susceptible to pressure and odd man rushes against. But Nuge is simultaneously the oilers pressure relief valve, McDavid's overload running mate, and the guy that always maintains a passing lane for Draisaitl's one timer.

Also worth noting - RNH's red deer rebels team set a WHL all time high for PP conversion at the time, might still be the high water mark. Which is pretty remarkable because that team was pretty much RNH and mediocrity that worked hard. And trust me - I watched him a lot in the WHL, including the entire Oil Kings vs Rebels playoffs series; the oilers were awful and was a good chance they'd draft RNH, and the Oil Kings won the memorial cup that year.

 

[ManofSteel55]

My issue is this is a community message board and someone asked the value. Even if the value, as you pointed out, is ridiculous. It shouldn't matter if it is poor value or impossible value, a discussion should still be able to be had around it. Nobody should be saying to lock up the thread because a certain players value was inquired.

Nobody said to lock the thread because it was inquired. I suggested it should be locked after a number of people already had said what continues to be said. Nuge's value to the Oilers would necessitate a value that Boston would find ridiculous.

 

[12ozPapa]

Oilers would be dumb to not ask for Swayman, Debrusk, 1st rounder, etc.

Absolutely zero reason to even try to put a value on a player like him on a contract like that.

 

[crowi]

RNH is not going to be a #1C Boston needs.

 

[SundherDome]

Nobody said to lock the thread because it was inquired. I suggested it should be locked after a number of people already had said what continues to be said. Nuge's value to the Oilers would necessitate a value that Boston would find ridiculous.

That is a very generous context you are giving yourself to your original statement lol

 

[ManofSteel55]

That is a very generous context you are giving yourself to your original statement lol

We clearly disagree. I think we're done here. I would hope we both have better things to do than discuss this further.

 

[bucks_oil]

He's definitely not the third most important piece on that pp, I'd honestly probably argue he's the most important piece.

He's the lynch pin that makes the Oilers PP tick. The Oilers PP drops higher percentage when he's out by a factor of two compared to one of McDavid or Draisaitl being out. Oilers PP is ~14 GF/60 normally. You take out Nuge? 7 GF/60. You take out one of McDavid or Draisaitl? 10 GF/60.

McDavid or Draisaitl on their own could be the qb of an elite PP. The reason the oilers PP is so good though is because RNH let's them both shine.

A Draisaitl PP would look a lot like the Washington pp has for years. Drai standing in his office ripping one timers. A McDavid PP would look like the Hawks PP where you have a focus on creating and winning small 2 on 1s, creating 4 on 3s or 3 on 2s for strong scoring chances.

RNH let's the oilers PP be both of those at the same time. Normally you can't because large amount of movements are required for one, and static positioning is required for the other. Trying to do both typically means you suck at one and lose possession, or you are very susceptible to pressure and odd man rushes against. But Nuge is simultaneously the oilers pressure relief valve, McDavid's overload running mate, and the guy that always maintains a passing lane for Draisaitl's one timer.

Also worth noting - RNH's red deer rebels team set a WHL all time high for PP conversion at the time, might still be the high water mark. Which is pretty remarkable because that team was pretty much RNH and mediocrity that worked hard. And trust me - I watched him a lot in the WHL, including the entire Oil Kings vs Rebels playoffs series; the oilers were awful and was a good chance they'd draft RNH, and the Oil Kings won the memorial cup that year.

Agreed... people forget that RNH was drafted 1st overall for a reason - playmaking & vision. This guy was completely overcoached to become the very passive/safe player that we see at 5v5, but on the power play he has always, let himself take some risks and has been exceptional.

His rookie season he QB'd the third ranked power play in the league (it was 1st before he went down injured) and scored at 7.39/60. That's an impressive number, the 2nd highest number of his career (including all the seasons with McDrai) and he's been consistently around 5-6/60 on the power play for his entire career whether playing with McDrai or not.

He may no longer be "THE STRAW" when you are comparing to two 1st ballot HOFers, but he's an excellent playmaker on any power play. The fact that Edmonton have three guys capable of QBing an elite power play is the reason it is so strong... the attack can start from anywhere.

 

[Cup or Bust]

It would have to be a very important need coming back for the Oilers to trade RNH. He is very good value for his contract. Unless some quality need can be filled by trading him, there is no reason to trade him.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

In reality Boston don't got much to offer for any center. I think some bruins fans are kidding themselves thinking they will get a legit center for basically nothing. They sound like Montreal fans thinking they can pawn off garbage for legit talent. Boston ain't getting a lindholm Scheifele or rnh.

 

[wintersej]

In reality Boston don't got much to offer for any center. I think some bruins fans are kidding themselves thinking they will get a legit center for basically nothing. They sound like Montreal fans thinking they can pawn off garbage for legit talent. Boston ain't getting a lindholm Scheifele or rnh.

The only one of those Boston fans want is Lindholm.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

In reality Boston don't got much to offer for any center. I think some bruins fans are kidding themselves thinking they will get a legit center for basically nothing. They sound like Montreal fans thinking they can pawn off garbage for legit talent. Boston ain't getting a lindholm Scheifele or rnh.

I kinda think they could get Scheifele, depending on if Jets fans wanna play Russian Roulette.

Scheifele might fetch a 1st from them right now.

And then the Jets need to look at the Boston roster and wonder if they will implode the same way Ottawa did without Karlsson. (That's the trade that got Colorado Cale Makar for 1 year of Matt Duchene).

 

[Hookslide]

In reality Boston don't got much to offer for any center. I think some bruins fans are kidding themselves thinking they will get a legit center for basically nothing. They sound like Montreal fans thinking they can pawn off garbage for legit talent. Boston ain't getting a lindholm Scheifele or rnh.

And Boston should not want any of them ,their cost would more harmful to them than helpful............

 

[jukon]

Leaving Oilers

R
N ot
H appening

Really?
Nothing to see
Here

 

[russ99]

Nuge is an Oilers fan favorite, but let's not go overboard here.

He's a support player at this time in his career, if say Holloway has a leap forward this season he can take over his power play spot, as can Kane if he rebounds. He had a career season last year, but let's not expect that as he heads into the usual decline years.

Funny how months ago some of our fans were disgusted with his postseason are now proclaiming how indispensable he is. Truth is, if the Oilers are going to re-up both Connor and Leon, he's going to have to go at some point.

 

[dredeye]

Why has this not been locked yet?

 

[Hookslide]

Why has this not been locked yet?

second that.........

 

[McSuper]

For this to be true, EDM would have to be calling which they won't. RNH is never waiving

This is probably true but a GM isn't doing their job if they don't listen to offers. If the offers make the Oilers better you make the call and see what RNH thinks. As an NHL GM you have to make the tough calls

 

[Three On Zero]

1. Don't trade rnh
2. I don't think he's what Boston needs anyways

The only enticing part for Boston is he’s cost controlled, Boston needs a higher ceiling center to play 1C

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

The only enticing part for Boston is he’s cost controlled, Boston needs a higher ceiling center to play 1C

Ya RNH is probably the perfect 2C, but getting a 1C via trade is easier said than done. You really need to find a situation where a player wants out (Eichel) or is a soon to be UFA and isn't going to re-sign or something (Dubois).

 

[Jumptheshark]

I believe all players are available for trade.

But what it would cost to the bruins to get Nuge from the Oilers? No team would pay it.

 

[HighLifeMan]

Ya RNH is probably the perfect 2C, but getting a 1C via trade is easier said than done. You really need to find a situation where a player wants out (Eichel) or is a soon to be UFA and isn't going to re-sign or something (Dubois).

I am probably going to catch flack for this since I am a flames fan, but whatever.

RNH is really not a perfect 2C as he does nothing exceptionally well outside of complement elite talent on the PP. That's the problem. He's honestly in the perfect spot from an individual standpoint, and I think he knew that when signing long term for a reasonable number.

He doesn't drive play
He's not a high end matchup guy
He can't be relied upon to win key faceoffs
He's soft/easy to play against
His playoff track record is abysmal (outscored 19-33 at five on five)
He's simply not a guy that can raise his game to another level when needed

Honestly, I'd argue that Edmonton could have legitimately made a finals appearance had they had a high end 2C these past two playoffs. Nuge has had his head beat in at five on five over the past two runs. I think Oiler's fan know this, but struggle to admit it. He fills a very nice role where he is, and I think teams know that. This notion that he's "indispensable" however seems laughable.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I am probably going to catch flack for this since I am a flames fan, but whatever.

RNH is really not a perfect 2C as he does nothing exceptionally well outside of complement elite talent on the PP. That's the problem. He's honestly in the perfect spot from an individual standpoint, and I think he knew that when signing long term for a reasonable number.

He doesn't drive play
He's not a high end matchup guy
He can't be relied upon to win key faceoffs
He's soft/easy to play against
His playoff track record is abysmal (outscored 19-33 at five on five)
He's simply not a guy that can raise his game to another level when needed

Honestly, I'd argue that Edmonton could have legitimately made a finals appearance had they had a high end 2C these past two playoffs. Nuge has had his head beat in at five on five over the past two runs. I think Oiler's fan know this, but struggle to admit it. He fills a very nice role where he is, and I think teams know that. This notion that he's "indispensable" however seems laughable.

Ya I see what you're saying... perfect is clearly the wrong word, but there is tremendous value in a guy who under certain circumstances can put up the amount of points he can at the cap hit that he is at. Maybe the problem is if RNH isn't going to be the best play driver/defensively responsible guy then you need to surround him with wingers that can take that responsibility. This is where cap structure construction and cap flexibility comes in. Certain teams have it and certain teams don't and that leads to imbalanced rosters where you are filling holes with players that aren't slotted at the right level. Oilers have that as do the Leafs.