Ryan Johansen Watch IV

[Crede777]

I am not a fan of greedy owners. But why would any fan of the CBJ want to see the team spend more than they have to, until they have to, to earn the play of their budding star? I don't get why any poster would be sitting here defending Ryan's position. Are you agents or something? Fans want wins. Period. (Don't fans want roster space and flexibility within the budget of their team? Yes.)


Everyone knows that after a few years, Ryan'll be able to get whatever the highest bidder will pay. For now, he can't. It's the same in any sport with RFA and UFA. What's the debate? Do you really worry that he'll be so grossly underpaid that he'll leave? Is that what's going on? When he signs for 2 years at 3.85/season, we'll know that he got less than he wanted but a lot of money to prove that he's worth 7 to 8/season in a bigger deal. I hope he's a Jacket for life.

And I get that the debate is over the right number, but that debate takes place again when he's a UFA...

Spot on.

 

[Nanabijou]

Last two years:

Skinner 113 games/78 points
Johansen 112 games/75 points

2013-14 Skinner was a -14, the second worst on his team despite getting 66.7% of his ES faceoffs in the offensive zone. He finished in the offensive zone 51.9% of the time,a -14.8% differential.

Johasen was 8th best on the CBJ at +3. He only started 45.1% of the time ES in the offensive zone. Finished 51.5%. +6.4% differential.

In the lockout season, Sinner was a team worst -21 while Johansen was a team 3rd worst at -8. Johansen's minus was driven by a lack of scoring, not piss poor defense like Skinner.

So over the past two seasons, which includes Johansen's putrid 12 points in 40 games performance, Johansen is already on par with Skinner offensively.

Defensively, Johansen is a potential Selke winner while Skinner is a huge liability.

That a Skinner equivalent offer wasn't on the table in June is mind boggling.

Anyone want Skinner over Johansen? Anyone really think that he's worthy of a 6 year deal and Johansen just a bridge?

Have fun making that case. (Not directed at Nanabijou).

CR, you have been taken to task many times for being too selective in the stats you choose to promote. Why compare the last two years? I'm talking about the 3 years Skinner had on his ELC versus the 3 years Joey had on his ELC. Skinner excelled right from the get-go and was rewarded with a 34.4 M contract over 6 years. Joey struggled initially (not that unexpected) and figured out how to put it together. Even though his track record was more unbalanced he still was given an offer of $32 M over 6 years. I imagine the initial offer to Skinner was similar, but they were able to come to an agreement. Not sure why it mattered that the offer was given in August versus June (and we don't know that it wasn't).

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Actually Couture centers the line that plays agains't the top competition with Marleau and Nieto and Thornton's line gets the easier matchup.
So nope , you don't seem to know what you are talking about. But it is consistent atleast.

He is a second line center and I'll submit that I oopsed on the defensive comment. Lotta comments to respond to. Messed up on one.

Oh well. There goes my entire case

 

[EDM]

Zherdev my response was to your silly notion that he was "penciled in" as the leading scorer. Clearly no one is penciled in as the leading scorer. It was your own hyperbole which set you up for my response. Agreed, my response was a bit absurd. But it was intended as such to illustrate the absurdity of your claim.

And by the way, in the playoffs it is not at all clear that RyJo was "penciled in" as the Number 1 Center. It was quite clear that it was Dubie who was "penciled in" to play against Crosby.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

CR, you have been taken to task many times for being too selective in the stats you choose to promote. Why compare the last two years? I'm talking about the 3 years Skinner had on his ELC versus the 3 years Joey had on his ELC. Skinner excelled right from the get-go and was rewarded with a 34.4 M contract over 6 years. Joey struggled initially (not that unexpected) and figured out how to put it together. Even though his track record was more unbalanced he still was given an offer of $32 M over 6 years. I imagine the initial offer to Skinner was similar, but they were able to come to an agreement. Not sure why it mattered that the offer was given in August versus June (and we don't know that it wasn't).

I just tossed out that two years because I'd never compared them before. Those offensive numbers-which include a terrible performance from Johansen-illustrate that Joey is more than worthy of a longer term deal. The defensive numbers are incredibly tilted for Johansen. More than enough icing on the cake to tell me who I'd rather have inked long term.

JDs comments indicated that the long term deals were offered in the week or so prior to his public, um, statements regarding contract details.

At this point in time, given what you know about the two players and projecting forward the best that you can, do you think that Johansen is worthy of only a bridge and Skinner was worthy of his deal?

 

[Nanabijou]

I just tossed out that two years because I'd never compared them before. Those offensive numbers-which include a terrible performance from Johansen-illustrate that Joey is more than worthy of a longer term deal. The defensive numbers are incredibly tilted for Johansen. More than enough icing on the cake to tell me who I'd rather have inked long term.

JDs comments indicated that the long term deals were in the week or so prior to his public, um, statements.

At this point in time, given what you know about the two players and projecting forward the best that you can, do you think that Johansen is worthy of only a bridge and Skinner was worthy of his deal?

No, but I understand why a bridge would be desirable in Joey's case, to both the player and the team. We have heard that the Jackets offered him a deal very similar deal to Skinner - that's the other point I was trying to make - so clearly they do think he is worthy of a similar deal to Skinner. I've yet to hear anything to convince me that Joey has seriously been interested in anything other than a 2 or 4 year contract.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

Zherdev my response was to your silly notion that he was "penciled in" as the leading scorer. Clearly no one is penciled in as the leading scorer. It was your own hyperbole which set you up for my response. Agreed, my response was a bit absurd. But it was intended as such to illustrate the absurdity of your claim.

And by the way, in the playoffs it is not at all clear that RyJo was "penciled in" as the Number 1 Center. It was quite clear that it was Dubie who was "penciled in" to play against Crosby.

OK EDM, not sure if English is your second language, but "penciled in" is a saying that means what is expected, but not something that's definite. It's something that can change. Get it? Because pencils are erasable? So it's not a sure thing?

How is it a silly notion to expect our number one center and leading scorer be that again? Especially since he is young and still on the upswing of his career? Who knows, maybe he "takes his ball and goes home" and sits like a "greedy punk" and your boy Josh Anderson becomes our leading goal scorer, but that doesn't mean for right now, we can't pencil in Joey as our #1C and top scorer.

Also - Dubi being matched up against Crosby for defensive purposes doesn't make Dubi our number one center....Dubi isn't our number one center, I don't even understand how you could make that argument. Sami Pahlsson often matched up against top offensive players because of his defensive ability.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

And by the way, in the playoffs it is not at all clear that RyJo was "penciled in" as the Number 1 Center. It was quite clear that it was Dubie who was "penciled in" to play against Crosby.

Matchups are not typically done top line vs top line. At least not necessarily done that way. Thus why a traditional third line is often referred to as a shut-down line.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Y
If Johasen isn't a #1 center, then we don't have ANY legit first liners on the entire squad.

One hell of a way to go into a season, don't you think?

Um, the entire first line IS out, if you haven't heard...

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

Um, the entire first line IS out, if you haven't heard...

Wait, so our first line isn't Wenny, Zaar, and Anderson? I mean we were leading the pre-season in scoring!

 

[DarkandStormy]

Defensively, Johansen is a potential Selke winner while Skinner is a huge liability.

LOL ok there bud. Think he's a class (or two) below Bergeron, Toews, Kopitar on the defensive end.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

LOL ok there bud. Think he's a class (or two) below Bergeron, Toews, Kopitar on the defensive end.

po·ten·tial
pəˈten(t)SHəl/
adjective
1.
having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.


Nowhere in Cyclones Rock's post did he say Joey was currently or even close to being better than Bergy or Toews. Never good when you have to resort to arguing against points never made in the first place.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Um, the entire first line IS out, if you haven't heard...

Did you understand the context of my post and to what I was responding?

 

[EspenK]

Last two years:

Skinner 113 games/78 points
Johansen 112 games/75 points

2013-14 Skinner was a -14, the second worst on his team despite getting 66.7% of his ES faceoffs in the offensive zone. He finished in the offensive zone 51.9% of the time,a -14.8% differential.

Johasen was 8th best on the CBJ at +3. He only started 45.1% of the time ES in the offensive zone. Finished 51.5%. +6.4% differential.

In the lockout season, Sinner was a team worst -21 while Johansen was a team 3rd worst at -8. Johansen's minus was driven by a lack of scoring, not piss poor defense like Skinner.

So over the past two seasons, which includes Johansen's putrid 12 points in 40 games performance, Johansen is already on par with Skinner offensively.

Defensively, Johansen is a potential Selke winner while Skinner is a huge liability.

That a Skinner equivalent offer wasn't on the table in June is mind boggling.

Anyone want Skinner over Johansen? Anyone really think that he's worthy of a 6 year deal and Johansen just a bridge?

Have fun making that case. (Not directed at Nanabijou).

When you were a kid, did your mother ever ask you "If everyone else jumped off the bridge (no pun intended) would you?

 

[Cyclones Rock]

LOL ok there bud. Think he's a class (or two) below Bergeron, Toews, Kopitar on the defensive end.

Did you not understand that I was comparing Skinner and Johansen?

IHZ explained my point very well (thanks).

But, here's a few numbers which ought to turn a few heads:

Player/OZ ES starts/OZ even strength finishes/Differential
Kopitar 53.7%/55.2%/+1.8%
Bergeron 46.0%/ 53.7%/ +7.7% Won Selke
Johansen 45.1%/51.5%/+6.4%

While one stat doesn't tell an entire story, the fact that Johasen is already being asked to take a huge percentage of his starts in the defensive zone and he's pushing the puck into the offensive zone at the rate that he is relative to these two defensive stalwarts makes the claim of a potential Selke not an absurd one.

Compare these with Skinner's 66.7%/51.9%/-14.8% numbers and one can just imagine why Johansen and KO view the offers the Jackets have made as insulting.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

When you were a kid, did your mother ever ask you "If everyone else jumped off the bridge (no pun intended) would you?

Good pun. LOL

She did. And I said, "maybe".

Reminds me of the time my father caught me coming into the house completely hammered in high school. Told me that I smelled like a distillery. I replied that I'd been drinking beer and that I should smell like a brewery. Got a pass on that one.

 

[SuperGenius]

Previous performance matters but I mean rookie year and even second year in the league are developmental years, I don't think you really use those too much. Stamkos and Seguin were healthy scratches as rookies, Seguin could barely get on the ice during the playoffs. Can't imagine someone claiming he didn't deserve his extension because of his rookie year numbers.

I think it's probably more his attitude and intangibles than the numbers or lack thereof that give them pause to back up a truck of $$$ to the kid.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I think it's probably more his attitude and intangibles than the numbers or lack thereof that give them pause to back up a truck of $$$ to the kid.

Cue "benching in AHL doesn't count" in 3...2...

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

Even though I'm not allowed to quote Porty, figured I'd share this in regards to Kerby Rychel:

The Blue Jackets didn't like his attitude, his practice habits or his game tendencies. Otherwise ...
You'll recall Rychel was an early cut, sent back to his junior club in the Ontario Hockey League.
"I remember," Richards said. "It’s a big difference this year. To me it's a huge difference. His work ethic. His attitude. Big difference. Big change, all for the better.
"There’s a guy … I watched him play in Nashville (on Monday) and he worked his butt off. There weren’t too many times when he was gliding on the ice, and when you go back to last season and, in particular, that game we played in Carolina … I couldn’t put him out on the ice at the end of the game, just because of his work habits.

Funny, all the haters of Joey in this thread cite Joey's attitude issues and work ethic and the fact that we have young guys like Rychel to make up for the offense..well well, turns out Rychel is the one with the attitude and work ethic concerns.

Also serves as a friendly remind...Fro, EDM, and jacks Johsnon, you'll want to bring this up and obsess over it in a few years during the "Kerby Rychel Watch" thread. I know how much one-off issues as a teenager bother you guys during contract talks after a player proves himself in the NHL a couple years later.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Even though I'm not allowed to quote Porty, figured I'd share this in regards to Kerby Rychel:

The Blue Jackets didn't like his attitude, his practice habits or his game tendencies. Otherwise ...
You'll recall Rychel was an early cut, sent back to his junior club in the Ontario Hockey League.
"I remember," Richards said. "It’s a big difference this year. To me it's a huge difference. His work ethic. His attitude. Big difference. Big change, all for the better.
"There’s a guy … I watched him play in Nashville (on Monday) and he worked his butt off. There weren’t too many times when he was gliding on the ice, and when you go back to last season and, in particular, that game we played in Carolina … I couldn’t put him out on the ice at the end of the game, just because of his work habits.

Funny, all the haters of Joey in this thread cite Joey's attitude issues and work ethic and the fact that we have young guys like Rychel to make up for the offense..well well, turns out Rychel is the one with the attitude and work ethic concerns.

Also serves as a friendly remind...Fro, EDM, and jacks Johsnon, you'll want to bring this up and obsess over it in a few years during the "Kerby Rychel Watch" thread. I know how much one-off issues as a teenager bother you guys during contract talks after a player proves himself in the NHL a couple years later.

Overhardt is his agent. You can pretty much book it (if you don't count the ELC squabble already).

 

[Ar-too]

And if he puts up a 60 point season this year or next, it'll be a nice problem to have.

 

[EDM]

Well, Z, if it is not a "sure thing" that RyJo will be the leading scorer, why should they be paying him like it is a sure thing he will be the leading scorer? See, once a contract is signed, and they start paying Joey, the amount they pay him is not "penciled in" so that it can be lowered if he does not perform as the leading scorer. Now since you have admitted that he may not be the leading scorer this year, do you understand why the Jackets are now wiling to break open the bank for Joey base upon one good year? Silly me, of course you don't.

 

[CentreKeeper12]

Even though I'm not allowed to quote Porty, figured I'd share this in regards to Kerby Rychel:

The Blue Jackets didn't like his attitude, his practice habits or his game tendencies. Otherwise ...
You'll recall Rychel was an early cut, sent back to his junior club in the Ontario Hockey League.
"I remember," Richards said. "It’s a big difference this year. To me it's a huge difference. His work ethic. His attitude. Big difference. Big change, all for the better.
"There’s a guy … I watched him play in Nashville (on Monday) and he worked his butt off. There weren’t too many times when he was gliding on the ice, and when you go back to last season and, in particular, that game we played in Carolina … I couldn’t put him out on the ice at the end of the game, just because of his work habits.

Funny, all the haters of Joey in this thread cite Joey's attitude issues and work ethic and the fact that we have young guys like Rychel to make up for the offense..well well, turns out Rychel is the one with the attitude and work ethic concerns.

Also serves as a friendly remind...Fro, EDM, and jacks Johsnon, you'll want to bring this up and obsess over it in a few years during the "Kerby Rychel Watch" thread. I know how much one-off issues as a teenager bother you guys during contract talks after a player proves himself in the NHL a couple years later.

The difference is Rychel was in his 1st year with the team and had those problems and got knocked of his high horse pretty quick. Joey was a healthy scratch in an AHL playoff game when he had a chance to show his true character, much like Cam and Calvert who in the same playoff series gave it their all. None of those 3 were thrilled to be in the AHL, especially after just missing out on the NHL playoffs, but Joey was the only one who decided to quit.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

I think it's probably more his attitude and intangibles than the numbers or lack thereof that give them pause to back up a truck of $$$ to the kid.

I don't see how advocating for the front office to engage in good-faith negotiations and be open to doing something more that just a minimum salary deal (and not throw public tantrums in the press) equates to "backing up a truck full of $$$" or implies advocated for reckless spending and poor cap management. I did advocate for a long term deal on this board as have some others though.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

The difference is Rychel was in his 1st year with the team and had those problems and got knocked of his high horse pretty quick. Joey was a healthy scratch in an AHL playoff game when he had a chance to show his true character, much like Cam and Calvert who in the same playoff series gave it their all. None of those 3 were thrilled to be in the AHL, especially after just missing out on the NHL playoffs, but Joey was the only one who decided to quit.

So last regular season and the playoffs weren't indicative of his character and the Springfield experience (after the end of the Jackets season) was?

I may have impugned Johansen's character as much as anyone on the board at the time of the Springfield incident. I felt that he deserved it. Last season dispelled any of the issues I had with character. It was very easy for me to put the AHL thing in the rear view mirror.

He was (is) a young kid who was pissed that he was in the minors. He shouldn't have behaved as he did. He's fessed up to that.

Assigning that AHL incident as a measure of his "true character" and dismissing the entire following NHL season is wrongheaded. Not too much perspective going on.