Ryan Johansen Watch IV
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I hope this is the case. I am having dead horse night-mares.
This horse has been beaten to death, buried, dug up, and beaten to death, again, more than once. It must end soon, for all our sanity. Clearly, though, it's already too late for some.
SuperGenius
For Duty & Humanity!
- Mar 18, 2008
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You know as well as anyone that a contract is about previous performance as much as future potential. You cannot only consider the good when moving forward with a commitment like this. Surely you know this. You've plenty to argue about. There's no reason to be obtuse about this simple notion.
Seems to me that today's the day something has to happen. I would have thought yesterday so he could get one preseason game in, but we'll see.
Inquiring Minds
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Why don't you all just agree with me, and start making sense?
Fro
Cheatin on CBJ w TBL
Bob was by himself last night at a table for autographs, i was waiting on them to introduce Joey at the Zoo event and to announce the signing...
Previous performance matters but I mean rookie year and even second year in the league are developmental years, I don't think you really use those too much. Stamkos and Seguin were healthy scratches as rookies, Seguin could barely get on the ice during the playoffs. Can't imagine someone claiming he didn't deserve his extension because of his rookie year numbers.
I'm not asking for agreement. But if you're going to have an argument, you should at least be able to back it up with some reasoning.
Saying "He is not penciled in as the leading goal scorer. Any Jacket is free to become the leading goal scorer without threat of reprisal from management" doesn't make any sense at all because I never claimed there was a threat of management reprisal, or that other Jackets weren't able to be goal scorers, just made the logical statement that Joey would be our number one center and leading goal score based off the roster and his position last year.
Why the hell are you still arguing this?
We all know that it's not because he's a RFA, it's because he's a RFA that we're looking to complete a bridge deal with. What they offered is comparable with other players that have been in his position.
The Jackets offered far more than the 3 million on two longer term deals. That was certainly in-line with what others players of his talents got in the past. Actually those players tended to have performed better than Johansen did during is ELC; thus the slightly lower offer from the Jackets.
Whether you agree or not the REASONING, it's insanely easy to understand. Inflating the contract would influence other negotiations for players with little bargaining power.
Do you really not understand the concept of precedent?
The Jackets are sticking to what the market has offered in the past. As I stated they can probably easily justify a marginal increase to the other owners, but nothing like the lastest 4.7 cap hit offer.
The agent is trying to argue that Johansen is a special case. That distinction wouldn't be all the relevent to the next player looking on a bigger bridge contract. What the point of a bridge deal, beyond limiting risk on term, if you offer them fair market value? At that point you weaken your position that you want to see more. I wouldn't even have offered him a long term deal to be honest with you.
As I said, I would seek a one year deal for 2.5-3 million and tell them we'll see you next off-season for a long term deal or arbitration.
Fro
Cheatin on CBJ w TBL
KJ Dangler
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Cyclones Rock
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It's pretty easy to understand JDs mindset.
He's already made comments to the effect that once RFAs have arbitration rights that they hold management over the barrel.
His cap philosophy is simple. It's all about advantage. Players gain the advantage/leverage at one point (arbitration rights) and up until that point management has all of the advantage/leverage.
And dog gone it, JD is going to use his leverage and his "rights". He's gonna win this thing, because, he can. He's gonna hold them son of guns over the barrel.
The performance over the length of the ELC nonsense, and it is nonsense, doesn't hold any water to a fair-minded person. Joey took two years (one and a half, actually) to develop to a level where most high draft pick and top performing RFAs receive 6 year, $30-36 million deals. And make no mistake. Joey was a top tier RFA last season. It cannot be argued otherwise. The extra half season of developmental time is a lame excuse to shove a bridge down his throat. It's shoddy reasoning, at best. Prevaricating and disingenuous is probably a better description. Almost every other player who performed at his level was rewarded with a long term deal. But that doesn't matter to JD. Leverage and rights, ya know.
OK, then part with $9 million over two years on a bridge. Evidently that's doable for the Johansen camp. But not JD. He's going to use his "rights" and get his #1 Center for $3 million a year-about a $3-4 million discount over what most #1 centers make, dad gum it. That there is already a $5 million plus bridge deal on the books for the team doesn't matter to good ole JD. He's got his "rights" and his "leverage".
He's also got his prized big money UFA on the IR and his up and coming forward on it as well. He's risking the momentum of a historically 3rd (or 4th) rate franchise over a million bucks or so per year. He'll risk the development process of his prospects by rushing them to the NHL before they are ready. None of this matters to JD. He's got his "rights" and "leverage" and he's gonna show this KO (who, by the way, doesn't have any other unsigned clients).
KO ought to stop negotiating with this clown and REALLY use his leverage. Give ole blood and glory, man of principle JD a bridge final offer and a 6 year final offer and tell him not to call until he accepts one or the other. Let the buffoon sweat until he caves.
And he will.
He's already made comments to the effect that once RFAs have arbitration rights that they hold management over the barrel.
His cap philosophy is simple. It's all about advantage. Players gain the advantage/leverage at one point (arbitration rights) and up until that point management has all of the advantage/leverage.
And dog gone it, JD is going to use his leverage and his "rights". He's gonna win this thing, because, he can. He's gonna hold them son of guns over the barrel.
The performance over the length of the ELC nonsense, and it is nonsense, doesn't hold any water to a fair-minded person. Joey took two years (one and a half, actually) to develop to a level where most high draft pick and top performing RFAs receive 6 year, $30-36 million deals. And make no mistake. Joey was a top tier RFA last season. It cannot be argued otherwise. The extra half season of developmental time is a lame excuse to shove a bridge down his throat. It's shoddy reasoning, at best. Prevaricating and disingenuous is probably a better description. Almost every other player who performed at his level was rewarded with a long term deal. But that doesn't matter to JD. Leverage and rights, ya know.
OK, then part with $9 million over two years on a bridge. Evidently that's doable for the Johansen camp. But not JD. He's going to use his "rights" and get his #1 Center for $3 million a year-about a $3-4 million discount over what most #1 centers make, dad gum it. That there is already a $5 million plus bridge deal on the books for the team doesn't matter to good ole JD. He's got his "rights" and his "leverage".
He's also got his prized big money UFA on the IR and his up and coming forward on it as well. He's risking the momentum of a historically 3rd (or 4th) rate franchise over a million bucks or so per year. He'll risk the development process of his prospects by rushing them to the NHL before they are ready. None of this matters to JD. He's got his "rights" and "leverage" and he's gonna show this KO (who, by the way, doesn't have any other unsigned clients).
KO ought to stop negotiating with this clown and REALLY use his leverage. Give ole blood and glory, man of principle JD a bridge final offer and a 6 year final offer and tell him not to call until he accepts one or the other. Let the buffoon sweat until he caves.
And he will.
KJ Dangler
Registered User
Seems like you dont like the way the nhl does business, guess what... Too bad. And no they wont give in, if Joey wants to be greedy, and he is only one left, all others have taken 1/2 of what hes asking, he will end up sitting all year. They are running a team, Ryan Johansen is just another player. They have a ton of youth coming up, and no way they are able to keep all thos players if they cave in and pay Ryan way more than he deserves. You want to guess what Ryans leverage will be if he sits out for a year. and what type of contract he could get at that point
Sometimes I read these threads and just have to think we are being trolled, as no rational person / peoples (two) keep making these absurd arguements. Just to summarize who may have been correct in their market value. Ryjo started at 6.5 mill, he is now down to 4.5 mill. Bluejackets started at 3 mill, they are now at 3.25. Also, your incorrect, he was offered a long term deal, 6 years 32 mill, which is a hair under Jeff Skinner who has badly outproduced Johan, has been to all star, and won a calder, and the second long term deal offered was 8 yrs 46 mill
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Except, you know...Couture, Stepan, Schwartz, Duchene, PK Subban if you want to go defense...facts, man.
Cyclones Rock
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You are kidding?
Johansen was the 17th leading scoring center in the NHL last season (63 points). There are 30 teams. How is he not a #1 center? Please explain.
Among other forwards, Foligno, our top scoring LW was tied for 35 the among LWs in scoring (39 points). Our leading scoring right wing was 34th among LWs in scoring-Atkinson (40 points).
Our second leading scoring center, Dubinski (50 points) was tied for 35th among all centers in scoring.
If Johasen isn't a #1 center, then we don't have ANY legit first liners on the entire squad.
One hell of a way to go into a season, don't you think?
We Want Ten
Johnny Gaudreau
I'm not sure why some people are posting here when clearly they just the CBJ to do poorly so they can say I told you so.
Cyclones Rock
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I already covered why Duchene got a bridge. His 3rd year performance was 43% off in points per game relative to a second year. He deserved a bridge. Signed to $6 million/year after one year of the bridge.
Subban was handled poorly by Montreal. They're paying $9 million per year now when he could have been had for under $6 million. That worked out real well. For Subban, anyway.
Couture got a 5 year$30 million deal after one year of the bridge. He's a second line center and not as good as Joey defensively.
The others aren't in the same class.
Just the facts, man.........
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KJ Dangler
Registered User
why did you skip over my post ? U said he wasnt offered a long term deal. i pointed out Jeff Skinner who Johans long term deal resembled.
Cyclones Rock
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Seems like you dont like the way the nhl does business, guess what... Too bad. And no they wont give in, if Joey wants to be greedy, and he is only one left, all others have taken 1/2 of what hes asking, he will end up sitting all year. They are running a team, Ryan Johansen is just another player. They have a ton of youth coming up, and no way they are able to keep all thos players if they cave in and pay Ryan way more than he deserves. You want to guess what Ryans leverage will be if he sits out for a year. and what type of contract he could get at that point
Throwout offers which weren't part of the landscape but for a minute.
If you really think Jeff Skinner has outperformed Johansen and is a better player, then
Nanabijou
Booooooooooone
Throwout offers which weren't part of the landscape but for a minute.
If you really think Jeff Skinner has outperformed Johansen and is a better player, then
I think Joey will be a better player. I think Skinner has easily outperformed Johansen when looking at their careers as a whole since their draft year.
KJ Dangler
Registered User
Throwout offers which weren't part of the landscape but for a minute.
If you really think Jeff Skinner has outperformed Johansen and is a better player, then
So the offer wasnt able to be taken by Joey... gotcha
Have you compared their stats ? Skinners Calder, and allstar game appearance.
You realize Skinner matched Joeys career high in points, his rookie season, while Joey racked up a whopping 21 points, his rookie season
Disgraced Cosmonaut
Registered User
I am not a fan of greedy owners. But why would any fan of the CBJ want to see the team spend more than they have to, until they have to, to earn the play of their budding star? I don't get why any poster would be sitting here defending Ryan's position. Are you agents or something? Fans want wins. Period. (Don't fans want roster space and flexibility within the budget of their team? Yes.)
Everyone knows that after a few years, Ryan'll be able to get whatever the highest bidder will pay. For now, he can't. It's the same in any sport with RFA and UFA. What's the debate? Do you really worry that he'll be so grossly underpaid that he'll leave? Is that what's going on? When he signs for 2 years at 3.85/season, we'll know that he got less than he wanted but a lot of money to prove that he's worth 7 to 8/season in a bigger deal. I hope he's a Jacket for life.
And I get that the debate is over the right number, but that debate takes place again when he's a UFA...
Everyone knows that after a few years, Ryan'll be able to get whatever the highest bidder will pay. For now, he can't. It's the same in any sport with RFA and UFA. What's the debate? Do you really worry that he'll be so grossly underpaid that he'll leave? Is that what's going on? When he signs for 2 years at 3.85/season, we'll know that he got less than he wanted but a lot of money to prove that he's worth 7 to 8/season in a bigger deal. I hope he's a Jacket for life.
And I get that the debate is over the right number, but that debate takes place again when he's a UFA...
Helistin
Registered User
Actually Couture centers the line that plays agains't the top competition with Marleau and Nieto and Thornton's line gets the easier matchup.
So nope , you don't seem to know what you are talking about. But it is consistent atleast.
Eric Staal is the Hurricanes #1 center, not Skinner. Skinner is also frail and injury prone whereas Joey is a thoroughbred.
Inglewood JACKets
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Cyclones Rock
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Last two years:
Skinner 113 games/78 points
Johansen 112 games/75 points
2013-14 Skinner was a -14, the second worst on his team despite getting 66.7% of his ES faceoffs in the offensive zone. He finished in the offensive zone 51.9% of the time,a -14.8% differential.
Johasen was 8th best on the CBJ at +3. He only started 45.1% of the time ES in the offensive zone. Finished 51.5%. +6.4% differential.
In the lockout season, Sinner was a team worst -21 while Johansen was a team 3rd worst at -8. Johansen's minus was driven by a lack of scoring, not piss poor defense like Skinner.
So over the past two seasons, which includes Johansen's putrid 12 points in 40 games performance, Johansen is already on par with Skinner offensively.
Defensively, Johansen is a potential Selke winner while Skinner is a huge liability.
That a Skinner equivalent offer wasn't on the table in June is mind boggling.
Anyone want Skinner over Johansen? Anyone really think that he's worthy of a 6 year deal and Johansen just a bridge?
Have fun making that case. (Not directed at Nanabijou).
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