Agree with concept. From FO view, I like it. From middle view, I like the increase to Year 2. However, from Joey view, $4.25M for year 1, not so much. His agent won't let him sign for that...Year 1 will likely need to be $5M or a bit north of that, with increase to $5.75-$6M for Year 2. That isn't to say FO or Joey wrong, just part of the process, and partly due to the limited market that a few other teams have apparently set (thank you, not so much, to NYR and MTL). That's the other thing different about sports franchises - it isn't just your own business model you need to work; your own business plan as a sports franchise manager is more influenced by what competitors are doing (and will do) than in most industries.
Ryan Johansen II (contract etc)
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Agree with concept. From FO view, I like it. From middle view, I like the increase to Year 2. However, from Joey view, $4.25M for year 1, not so much. His agent won't let him sign for that...Year 1 will likely need to be $5M or a bit north of that, with increase to $5.75-$6M for Year 2. That isn't to say FO or Joey wrong, just part of the process, and partly due to the limited market that a few other teams have apparently set (thank you, not so much, to NYR and MTL). That's the other thing different about sports franchises - it isn't just your own business model you need to work; your own business plan as a sports franchise manager is more influenced by what competitors are doing (and will do) than in most industries.
EspenK
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http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2014/08/07/report-short-term-deals-on-the-table-in-johansen-contract-talks-with-jackets/related/
From Porty
Nothing new to see but it is somewhat disconcerting if Joey still has a 4 year proposal sitting out there. That ain't going to happen. I know all the sentiment around here seems to lean toward nothing to worry about it's all negotiating but negotiating means giving and taking. If that was really going on a deal should have been struck by now. My sense is both sides are dug in and this isn't going to happen anytime soon.
From Porty
Nothing new to see but it is somewhat disconcerting if Joey still has a 4 year proposal sitting out there. That ain't going to happen. I know all the sentiment around here seems to lean toward nothing to worry about it's all negotiating but negotiating means giving and taking. If that was really going on a deal should have been struck by now. My sense is both sides are dug in and this isn't going to happen anytime soon.
WannabeFinn
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I don't know why you think a deal should have been struck by now. There doesn't seem to be a consensus regarding comparable deals, and there is still a fair amount of time before camp (too long for many of us I'm sure!). I don't feel like there's nothing to worry about but there's a window for the deal to be made and it isn't starting to close yet.
EspenK
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To me the issue is that the Jackets hold all the cards and inorder for the deal to get done Joey's camp has to give. If they still have a 4 year on the table to me that shows either they don't get it or they are just being obstinate for the sake of it. To me the negotiating should be pretty simple at this point.
Jackets: It's either 2 years or three
Joey's team : Okay then we want $X.
Jackets: Too much-we offer $Y
Joey's team: How about we split the difference and get this done.
I mean at this point what else is there to negotiate?
Hopefully it is not Joey who is dragging this out but rather his agent. The longer it takes it just has to have a negative impact, imo.
Jackets have sucked at the start of seasons; they don't need a late to or missed camp Joey.
Jackets: It's either 2 years or three
Joey's team : Okay then we want $X.
Jackets: Too much-we offer $Y
Joey's team: How about we split the difference and get this done.
I mean at this point what else is there to negotiate?
Hopefully it is not Joey who is dragging this out but rather his agent. The longer it takes it just has to have a negative impact, imo.
Jackets have sucked at the start of seasons; they don't need a late to or missed camp Joey.
Timeless Winter
SaveD the Crew
TaketheCannoli
RIP
I'm not sure this about anger. It's probably more about Johansen's camp trying to find a way to create leverage.
punk_o_holic
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If he signs a 3 year deal and then when that contract is up, he signs a 1 year deal via offer sheet he would become a UFA after that one year? If a team like Vancouver(home team) offers him a low contract and promises to give him a massive contract after that one year, the compensation would be bad if we let him walk. If we keep him, we can't trade him right because of the offer sheet rule? If that is the case, we can't trade him at the deadline and lose him for nothing?
CBJWerenski8
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Hello Johnny
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Mayor Bee
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This undoubtedly would trigger an immediate investigation by the NHL, with a high likelihood of Vancouver absolutely getting hammered in compensatory penalties.
CBJWerenski8
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Sore Loser
Sorest of them all
This conversation is strikingly similar to the one being had regarding Johansen last summer ... the only difference is, instead of worrying about him being a bust and not making the team because he was scratched in the AHL, everyone is worried about whether or not he will make the team because of his contract.
Have we gone full circle yet?
A deal will get done, sooner or later. I don't think we would ever trade him (see Jarmo's comments about offer sheets - would a trade offer be much better than a bevy of draft picks? I doubt it) ... and there's no way he's going to sit out the season, that's terrible for both sides. It will get done, and my bet is it's done well before camp.
Have we gone full circle yet?
A deal will get done, sooner or later. I don't think we would ever trade him (see Jarmo's comments about offer sheets - would a trade offer be much better than a bevy of draft picks? I doubt it) ... and there's no way he's going to sit out the season, that's terrible for both sides. It will get done, and my bet is it's done well before camp.
Timeless Winter
SaveD the Crew
I don't love him just yet but I don't want him to leave either. I think he's important in helping us win our first playoff series.
I wouldn't just give him anything he wants but I would loosen up a bit and go closer to his number he's asking.
Reason is I don't want to go into the next negotiations in a few years with him wanting full market value and not a penny less. (which may happen regardless).
I think that if he's being lowballed too much he'll have hard feelings towards the front office if they go and try to sign him long term next time around.
I agree. With that said, things could have changed since Jarmo said that about offer sheets. He may not think that anymore.
EspenK
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I don't think your scenario makes sense because we wouldn't let him walk on a low ball offer. And if it was a decent long term offer we would match.
If he signs a 3 year, at the end I believe he would have arbitration rights so if he wants to go UFA he would elect arbitration, the club would elect a 2 year deal and at the end of that contract it is adios. Same with a 2yr deal I believe.
Sore Loser
Sorest of them all
Agreed as well. But, has Johansen's value gone down because of this? I definitely don't think so ... I think a trade would have to be something very favorable to the CBJ, not just something that gets done because they are tired of negotiating.
punk_o_holic
Registered User
*This would be based on him signing a 3 year deal.
So this would be the Summer when his 3 year deal is finished
The team that offers him an offer sheet would offer him ONLY a ONE year deal with a low cap hit so they don't give up a lot of assets. The long term offer would be for when his one year deal is up and would be based on a gentlemen's agreement(I think if it's a team like Vancouver, both sides would stick with the deal). Columbus won't have a long term contract to match, it would only be that one year deal. And you say Columbus would match if it was a low ball offer but I think if you match an offer sheet, you can't trade him for a year. If Johansen tells Jarmo that he will test the UFA market, he won't be able to deal him at the deadline so essentially we would lose him for nothing. So if Columbus matches the one year deal, he plays out the season. Hits UFA and then signs with the team that originally offer sheeted him.
If the team files for arbitration, not sure if he can still sign offer sheets.
If it still doesn't make sense, maybe Mayor Bee can explain it better. Seemed like he knew what I was getting at.
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Mayor Bee
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Here's what I think he's getting at. Right now, Johansen has three years of pro experience and is four years away from being a UFA.
If I understand correctly, then he's asking about the following possibility.
1) Johansen signs a new contract with Columbus for three years (taking him to July 1, 2017).
2) Upon the expiration of that contract, he will still be an RFA with arbitration rights.
3) It would theoretically be possible for a new team (in this case, Vancouver) to give Johansen a one-year offer sheet for an obscenely low amount, with a handshake agreement to give him a massive contract either as a UFA or as a new contract extension.
3A) If Columbus matches the offer sheet, they could not trade Johansen for one calendar year from the date of matching. (Article 10.3(b) - "The Prior Club may not Trade that Restricted Free Agent for a period of one year from the date it exercises its Right of First Refusal.")
3B) If Columbus declines to match the offer sheet, they lose Johansen as an RFA for basically nothing.
My statement was that, although this is theoretically possible, there are too many elements to consider this as realistic:
- Columbus would raise holy hell about this, as would every other team
- The NHL would immediately investigate, with a pretty good likelihood of hammering Vancouver with penalties
- The NHLPA would be absolutely livid with Johansen and his agent for both taking a low salary (even for a single year) and then skipping the UFA market entirely
Now, let's say that Johansen does in fact sign a three-year deal with Columbus this offseason, making this scenario technically possible. There is a mechanism to possibly prevent the doomsday plot above from happening, and it's in Section 12.4(a). It states:
"A Club electing salary arbitration pursuant to Section 12.3(a) above must do so by making a written request, in accordance with Exhibit 3 hereto, utilizing the form attached hereto as Exhibit 22, to the parties listed in Section (c) below by not later than 5:00 p.m. New York time on the later of June 15 or 48 hours after the conclusion of the Stanley Cup Finals in the League Year prior to the League Year for which the Club seeks to determine a Player's Paragraph 1 Salary by salary arbitration."
This means that Columbus could elect to offer arbitration to Johansen two full weeks before the three-year contract expires, thus severely cramping the time frame. Johansen could sign an offer sheet, but it would have to be done by July 5 of that year (Section 12.3(a)(iv)).
In addition, the number that Columbus would file on Johansen would have to be equal to or higher than what he would have just made the previous year (2016-17). The likelihood of him taking a one-year offer sheet from Vancouver for much less than the club-filed offer in arbitration is extremely low, and it would (again) undoubtedly trigger an NHL investigation.
EspenK
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Mayor pretty much covers all the bases as to why I don't think we would lose him.
Question though- I assume if the Jackets file for arbitration they could still match any offer sheet - right?
Biggest risk in the scenario where the club files for arb after a three year deal is that the player can opt for a one year deal and after that he is a UFA.
Question though- I assume if the Jackets file for arbitration they could still match any offer sheet - right?
Biggest risk in the scenario where the club files for arb after a three year deal is that the player can opt for a one year deal and after that he is a UFA.
Xoggz22
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It is my understanding that if the club files for arbitration no other club can offer an offer sheet. It effectively controls the player for exclusive negotiating rights.
also, the NHLPA nor NHL would permit a lowball offer for 1 year. That would be circumvention beyond what happened with Kovalchuck. The possibility exists that Joey could be gone in 4-5 years depending on contract circumstances but I find it unlikely.
also, the NHLPA nor NHL would permit a lowball offer for 1 year. That would be circumvention beyond what happened with Kovalchuck. The possibility exists that Joey could be gone in 4-5 years depending on contract circumstances but I find it unlikely.
Iron Balls McGinty
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Its negotiating.
I can't name a single player who walked because he got mad over negotiations. Ryan O'Reilly is still an Avalanche player. P.K. Subban is still a Canadien. Shea Weber even signed an offer sheet with Philly and he is committed to Nashville until the end of time.
Heck Scott Stevens was awarded to the New Jersey Devils and didn't want to go there, held out and had a couple of contentious contract negotiations and ended up spending the rest of his career as a Devil.
EspenK
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Here's the official word form the CBA:
A Player subject to a Club-elected salary arbitration pursuant to this
Section 12.3(a) shall remain eligible to negotiate and sign an Offer Sheet
with any other Club pursuant to Section 10.3 of this Agreement by no later
than 5:00 p.m. New York time on July 5 immediately following the Club's
election of salary arbitration.
Mayor Bee
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A player facing club-elected arbitration could still receive and sign an offer sheet. The provision is Section 12.3(a) - Club-Elected Salary Arbitration For Players With Paragraph 1 NHL Salaries plus
Signing, Roster, and Reporting Bonuses Greater Than $1,750,000 In The Prior League Year. The relevant part is Section 12.3(a)(iv), which reads:
Section 10.3 of the CBA deals with offer sheets and compensation. However, there's a time limit of July 5 on the receipt of an offer sheet to/from the player. For it to be valid, Central Registry would have to have it in-hand by 5:00 PM on July 5 of that year (2017).
Portzline has reported that the team has both a two-year and a three-year offer on the table for Johansen. I can't imagine there being a three-year offer on the table from the team unless there's been a lot of research done to make sure that the doomsday scenario above cannot actually take place.
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