RW Pavel Buchnevich (2013, 75th, NYR)

[Peter25]

Just keep Buchnevich out of North American leagues until he turns 20! Otherwise he will also be ruined.

 

[FeedDaPuck]

Incorrect. The competition in the MHL is older than USHL.


Zharkov was used sparringly by the Silver Lions; Dikushin would have not gotten a chance with Red Army.


I don't understand half of what you're trying to say.

Anyhow, of all the former Soviet-state players to ever play in the USHL (since mid 1990s), a grand total of only 1 has made the NHL.
And considering these guys play there to get a head start on an NHL career, that's a HORRIBLE track record. How many played in the USHL? If you look at the number of "potential" stars that were growing up in Russia who got lost over the same span of years - it would be hard to argue their futility record also. Bottom line, USHL > MHL at this point. If you are looking to develop your game defensively, its the league to be in. I am glad Lysenko is also there this year.

As for Gogolev - he is past his draft age; very promising kid, who stalled in his development. Same goes for Apalkov and Grigorenko (Magnitogorsk)

 

[vorky]

Dikushin would have not gotten a chance with Red Army.

not true

Zharkov did not impress me at WC 18, Slepyshev, Yakimov, Nichuskin, Barabanov and Osnovin are muuuch better

 

[scoutman1]

Just keep Buchnevich out of North American leagues until he turns 20! Otherwise he will also be ruined.

ya like staying over Russia helped guys like Svitov, Chistov, Yuri Alexandrov, and a lot of Russians since have been having trouble being what they were suppose to be like Zherdev, Vishnesvsky, and guy l ike Filitov is all over the board

coming over never hurt a guy like Kulikov, Yakupov, Grigorenko, Burmistrov, Radulov

this is like any other player there are just as many successes as busts and it is like that with all players, it is not a league way of hurting them because a lot of guys thrive, I think over europe a lot of players get a high hype but put them in the North American way of playing and they are not the same player and this will not work itself out by playing longer over Europe because when they fave the NA game it will still be a shock to their game...the guys who work the hardest make the best of their training and it is as simple as that.

 

[vorky]

ya like staying over Russia helped guys like Svitov, Chistov, Yuri Alexandrov, and a lot of Russians since have been having trouble being what they were suppose to be like Zherdev, Vishnesvsky, and guy l ike Filitov is all over the board

coming over never hurt a guy like Kulikov, Yakupov, Grigorenko, Burmistrov, Radulov

this is like any other player there are just as many successes as busts and it is like that with all players, it is not a league way of hurting them because a lot of guys thrive, I think over europe a lot of players get a high hype but put them in the North American way of playing and they are not the same player and this will not work itself out by playing longer over Europe because when they fave the NA game it will still be a shock to their game...the guys who work the hardest make the best of their training and it is as simple as that.

I remind you that Russian changed developing system, so your examples are irellevant. I recommend you to study it first.
Lets say about current situation. Guys like Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Orlov, Bobrovsky, Sergei Kalinin, Pivtsakin etc have not suffer from staying at home. All of them played/play KHL regularly. Guys like Grigorenko, Yakupov, Khokhlachev, Telegin play junior hockey all the time.
Please tell about last 3 years, not before. It is not fair. Sweden did not produce so many great players in 1950´s. Is it fair to compare their development with current situation? I dont think so. You do it with Russians, it is not fair.

 

[scoutman1]

I remind you that Russian changed developing system, so your examples are irellevant. I recommend you to study it first.
Lets say about current situation. Guys like Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Orlov, Bobrovsky, Sergei Kalinin, Pivtsakin etc have not suffer from staying at home. All of them played/play KHL regularly. Guys like Grigorenko, Yakupov, Khokhlachev, Telegin play junior hockey all the time.
Please tell about last 3 years, not before. It is not fair. Sweden did not produce so many great players in 1950´s. Is it fair to compare their development with current situation? I dont think so. You do it with Russians, it is not fair.

Filitov is a guy from now and for guys in the last 3 years you can not really say much yet as they are still prospects and not busts nor NHL stars so your argument would have to waint another 2 to 3 years for that one....Burmistorv being a guy recent in the CHL got himself drafted and into the NHL, Yakupov solidified his 1st overall in the CHL, Grigorenko is better all around now playing in the CHL in Russia like Patrick Roy said he only blocked 1 shot all year and this year he had 10 shot blocks and his work ethic is better...Dmitri Kulikov played CHL and got himself a 1st round draft and doing well for Florida, Radulov played CHL and if played in the NHL the full time would be an NHL all star every year IMO...and unlike you i am not saying there is a right and wrong developement path as I think both are good, but curious as to way all the top russians are coming over CHL now, before you would never get Grigorenko, Yakupov, Burmistrov, Nemestnikov, Khokhlachev all come over....Tarasenko and Kuznetsov would have been good no matter what league they played in.

 

[vorky]

and unlike you i am not saying there is a right and wrong developement path as I think both are good, but curious as to way all the top russians are coming over CHL now, before you would never get Grigorenko, Yakupov, Burmistrov, Nemestnikov, Khokhlachev all come over....

it is agent´s job. Agent wants to make money as soon as possible. Especially Larionov guy. Grigorenko, Yakupov, Namestnikov, Khokhlachev were drafted in KHL. They had do sign contracts for 3 or 5 seasons. They refused because agents ordered it. Agents said to them: "you have to leave as soon as possible if you want to be drafted by NHL". That is not about bad russian development system, but agents attitude. If these guys stayed at home, they would have the same quality or be better. Zharkov is another story, he was not drafted by KHL club, so he chose CHL.

Tarasenko and Kuznetsov would have been good no matter what league they played in.

the same Grigorenko, Yakupov, Burmistrov, Namestnikov, Khokhlachev if they stayed.

 

[scoutman1]

it is agent´s job. Agent wants to make money as soon as possible. Especially Larionov guy. Grigorenko, Yakupov, Namestnikov, Khokhlachev were drafted in KHL. They had do sign contracts for 3 or 5 seasons. They refused because agents ordered it. Agents said to them: "you have to leave as soon as possible if you want to be drafted by NHL". That is not about bad russian development system, but agents attitude. If these guys stayed at home, they would have the same quality or be better. Zharkov is another story, he was not drafted by KHL club, so he chose CHL.


the same Grigorenko, Yakupov, Burmistrov, Namestnikov, Khokhlachev if they stayed.

i wasn't blaming the russian system for these guys coming over I was curous as to why they were because it nevver happened before now seems like tons of high profile russian players are coming over, I was not blaming the system.

Also I was not singeling out a league on russian being horrible for development I was saying the CHL is not a bad place to develop either eh, we did have guys like most of the NHL greats come from the CHL, Crosby and Stamkos, Giroux, Hossa, Staal, Getzlaf, an the list keeps going on and on...and when Euro players come over I know they come over highly profiled and are always given every oppertunity to play top 2 lines and teams bend over backward for the players so the system is just as good....thing is if a player is going to turn out they are going to, if not then they will not.

 

[vorky]

Hossa did not play CHL

i wasn't blaming the russian system for these guys coming over I was curous as to why they were because it nevver happened before now seems like tons of high profile russian players are coming over, I was not blaming the system.

ok, I said you why russian are coming over these days. Blame agents for it. Russians, Swedes, Finns dont need to go over, they have good developing system at home. Only Russians have to go over if they want to be drafted (at least, NHL GMs think so). That is problem and reason of leaving russian these days. No another reason!

 

[NMF78]

ya like staying over Russia helped guys like Svitov, Chistov, Yuri Alexandrov, and a lot of Russians since have been having trouble being what they were suppose to be like Zherdev, Vishnesvsky, and guy l ike Filitov is all over the board

coming over never hurt a guy like Kulikov, Yakupov, Grigorenko, Burmistrov, Radulov

.

so far from those players only Radulov has achieved something at the senior level

 

[Garl]

Hossa did not play CHL


ok, I said you why russian are coming over these days. Blame agents for it. Russians, Swedes, Finns dont need to go over, they have good developing system at home. Only Russians have to go over if they want to be drafted (at least, NHL GMs think so). That is problem and reason of leaving russian these days. No another reason!

Marian Hossa played in WHL, that's for sure.

 

[vorky]

ok, he played.

 

[scoutman1]

ok, he played.

you know but what I replied to is the person who said if the player comes to play in North America he will get ruined like all the others, and im saying the only way they do not turn out is if they do not want to work for it, that was the whole reason for post...the CHL is stats wise the top producing league in the world to NHL product and superstars of European, USA, Canadian etc have all came through the league and turned out fine....im sure players want to come over as well due to the fact to learn the north american game plus got MORE exposure than in Russia...here are scouts every game....but like i said the first post here was to put the guy in place saying that the player will get ruined in the CHL which is NOT RIGHT TO SAY as the CHL produced more NHL talent than any other league and guys like Giroux and Crosby developed vvery well in the league......a lot of the Euro players that come over that never turn out come over and can not handle the physical play or do not bother working hard, and that is why they fail and people in europe just think they got ruined by the CHL but like canadian players...a lot of high profile prospects never turn out.

 

[Zine]

you know but what I replied to is the person who said if the player comes to play in North America he will get ruined like all the others, and im saying the only way they do not turn out is if they do not want to work for it, that was the whole reason for post...the CHL is stats wise the top producing league in the world to NHL product and superstars of European, USA, Canadian etc have all came through the league and turned out fine....im sure players want to come over as well due to the fact to learn the north american game plus got MORE exposure than in Russia...here are scouts every game....but like i said the first post here was to put the guy in place saying that the player will get ruined in the CHL which is NOT RIGHT TO SAY as the CHL produced more NHL talent than any other league and guys like Giroux and Crosby developed vvery well in the league......a lot of the Euro players that come over that never turn out come over and can not handle the physical play or do not bother working hard, and that is why they fail and people in europe just think they got ruined by the CHL but like canadian players...a lot of high profile prospects never turn out.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the CHL, its a fantastic development system.

The problem lies in the inherent RISK of changing development routes/styles at such a crucial age. Why take that risk if it isn't needed?.....and it isn't needed 99% of the time.
The reason: Greedy agent$ that prey on these kid's NHL dream. They'll say "Come to the CHL, its the fast-track to the NHL!"

Well, ok, its the fast-track for North Americans. But for Russians? (Not that it can't, or hasn't been done) but history has shown that developing in Russia (not the CHL) has been the faster track to the NHL.

 

[scoutman1]

There's nothing inherently wrong with the CHL, its a fantastic development system.

The problem lies in the inherent RISK of changing development routes/styles at such a crucial age. Why take that risk if it isn't needed?.....and it isn't needed 99% of the time.
The reason: Greedy agent$ that prey on these kid's NHL dream. They'll say "Come to the CHL, its the fast-track to the NHL!"

Well, ok, its the fast-track for North Americans. But for Russians? (Not that it can't, or hasn't been done) but history has shown that developing in Russia (not the CHL) has been the faster track to the NHL.

you could also say some are darned if they do and darned if they don't...after they develop playing a game that is different than North American hockey then come into a program that is about two way play and physical play well some players will have trouble making the adjustment later on too...

 

[vorky]

scoutman1

I could agree with your opinion partially. I DO NOT agree with following

im saying the only way they do not turn out is if they do not want to work for it,

do you say that those who failed in CHL did not work hard? What about cultural, social enviroment. Euro guy at the age of 16,17 changes his way of life. He is not prepared for it, mentally. He is without family, friends, girlfriend, does not speak english. It is bad for his development. It can be a reason of failure in many cases of euro guys. Why the guy does not work hard? Because he does not feel comfortable in new country, it is a social shock for him. It is not like he is lazy as you think. It is much easier to leave homeland at the age of 20-22 years.

the CHL is stats wise the top producing league in the world to NHL product ....

the CHL produced more NHL talent than any other league and guys like Giroux and Crosby developed vvery well in the league......

do you know why? Look at numbers of NHL players. Majority are Canadians, NHL is canadian league! Btw J 20 SuperElit, swedish jr league, is much better in producing prospects for swedish Elitserien than CHL for NHL. Do you know why? J 20 SuperElit is swedish league. That a reason. I will write about euro CHLers later

im sure players want to come over as well due to the fact to learn the north american game

not necessarily for a kid to become pro. You have tons of examples of players who was developed in Europe and became NHLers and stars.

CHL draft 2009
SWE - 12 draftees
8 of them are now back in lower swedish leagues and norway
only Landeskog makes NHL
Zibanejad, Larsson drafte at the same draft year as Landeskog. Are they not good enouth to play NHL? Both developed in Sweden.

CHL draft 2010
SWE 6 draftees
3 of them are back to play lower swedish league Is not it a ruining a talent?

Swedes, Finns, Russians dont need to play CHL. They have great developing leagues at home. Slovaks, Czechs, Germans dont have developing programmes like Sweden etc. So coming over is a solution, I dont like it. I hope czech rep and slovakia will have MHL club as soon as possible to avoid coming over.

here are scouts every game.

how the hell does it help in developing? Coach develops kids, not scout. This pro-NHL hockey word is bad for developing kids in Europe. I support idea of europeans playing NHL. But I dont agree with (direct-indirect) luring guys at the age 16-19 years. You can come over at the age of 20-22, no problem. NHL GMs are not competent.

 

[Zine]

you could also say some are darned if they do and darned if they don't...after they develop playing a game that is different than North American hockey then come into a program that is about two way play and physical play well some players will have trouble making the adjustment later on too...

I very much agree......its one of the downfalls of having 2 countries with vastly different approaches to the game.

But at least staying in Russia ensures that a kid masters a style of game. The HUGE risk of developing in NA is becoming a hybrid of both styles but mastering neither.
(Because of the above reason) the number of kids that've returned from NA with undeveloped talent is enormous.

But, again, that's not a knock on the CHL.....its 100% the fault of the player/agent/advisor, etc.

 

[vorky]

after they develop playing a game that is different than North American hockey then come into a program that is about two way play and physical play well some players will have trouble making the adjustment later on too...

not true. If you are good enough you dont have any problem to adapt NA style of game at the age of 20-22. Examples? Malkin, Ovechkin, Adam Larsson, Hedman, Orlov, Bobrovsky, Nikitin, Nicklas Bäckström Nobody of them played CHL and all play NHL these days. CHL route is not better way of development than Elitserien, SM-liiga or KHL.

 

[vorky]

that's not a knock on the CHL.....its 100% the fault of the player/agent/advisor, etc.

I agree with this

 

[Dares]

To sum it all up:
Agents are the reason more Russians come over to CHL, Russian development system, junior hockey is developing rapidly lately, kids dont come because of bad system back home--- agents to blame, simple

CHL is a very,very good league
BUT for Euro guys is better to stay at home till they 20-21
European leagues/systems are not better than CHL but its bad for a kid to change styles/systems so early

after so many threads over the years NA guys still dont get it.... fully.... CHL is not bad for Euro kids...changing styles is bad.

 

[Zine]

Dikushin would have not gotten a chance with Red Army.

Nonsense. If Mamin and Zykov regulars, so would have Dikushin been.


And like Vorky said, Zharkov has regressed a lot. Next to Grigorenko, he was the best 1994 at 14-15. Slepyshev, Yakimov, Osnovin look better than him now. And he was just replaced on top 2 lines at U-18 by Barabanov.

 

[scoutman1]

scoutman1

I could agree with your opinion partially. I DO NOT agree with following


do you say that those who failed in CHL did not work hard? What about cultural, social enviroment. Euro guy at the age of 16,17 changes his way of life. He is not prepared for it, mentally. He is without family, friends, girlfriend, does not speak english. It is bad for his development. It can be a reason of failure in many cases of euro guys. Why the guy does not work hard? Because he does not feel comfortable in new country, it is a social shock for him. It is not like he is lazy as you think. It is much easier to leave homeland at the age of 20-22 years.


do you know why? Look at numbers of NHL players. Majority are Canadians, NHL is canadian league! Btw J 20 SuperElit, swedish jr league, is much better in producing prospects for swedish Elitserien than CHL for NHL. Do you know why? J 20 SuperElit is swedish league. That a reason. I will write about euro CHLers later


not necessarily for a kid to become pro. You have tons of examples of players who was developed in Europe and became NHLers and stars.

CHL draft 2009
SWE - 12 draftees
8 of them are now back in lower swedish leagues and norway
only Landeskog makes NHL
Zibanejad, Larsson drafte at the same draft year as Landeskog. Are they not good enouth to play NHL? Both developed in Sweden.

CHL draft 2010
SWE 6 draftees
3 of them are back to play lower swedish league Is not it a ruining a talent?

Swedes, Finns, Russians dont need to play CHL. They have great developing leagues at home. Slovaks, Czechs, Germans dont have developing programmes like Sweden etc. So coming over is a solution, I dont like it. I hope czech rep and slovakia will have MHL club as soon as possible to avoid coming over.



how the hell does it help in developing? Coach develops kids, not scout. This pro-NHL hockey word is bad for developing kids in Europe. I support idea of europeans playing NHL. But I dont agree with (direct-indirect) luring guys at the age 16-19 years. You can come over at the age of 20-22, no problem. NHL GMs are not competent.

well for the scouts at every game if you actually read my post it was for exposure no where in that part did I put it was going to make them better????? not sure where you got that one from.

CHL does not produce top swedish players most times because none of the top swedish players come over to play...but Landeskog did a good job over here eh, went from a potential 1st rounder to 2nd overall in the draft....

I can see you hate North America for handling hockey talent, I can tell by your "I hope Czech and Slovak get the MHL league going so they do not have to come over" so already I see your take on development must just happen where they are born.

You know what, for players having to change their life...that is the game, it will always been, it sucks but that is the way it is...and for it being easier when they are 20 or 22...how is it easier...guys in the CHL in the Quebec League, some can not speak english and go to an english speaking community they are not around family either and live with Billets, I know coming from Europe is not easy and trying to adjust but A LOT of players do it and do well at the game....also for your players leaving well it goes the other way too, Henrik Samuelsson went to Sweden and left to come back to North America....


OK so i understand agents send the kids over...but these players are going to have to change there style IF they want to play NHL...be harder when one style is embeded in your head.

 

[vorky]

well for the scouts at every game if you actually read my post it was for exposure no where in that part did I put it was going to make them better????? not sure where you got that one from.

you dont get my point. You say kids are great scouted in CHL and are not in Russia or so. Btw, they are, look at job of KHL scouting agency. Agent + "great scouting in CHL" is problem. You dont need to be scouted to become great player. Scout does not help you with development. He is doing his job, to find new talents. but he does not raise kids. I know it is all about getting drafted to NHL. You are scouted, you are drafted. Agents say kids "come over to play CHL because you will not be scouted and drafted". Nonsense and agents know it. Bobrovsky case to proove it.

CHL does not produce top swedish players most times because none of the top swedish players come over to play...

and why do they behave like that? I tell you why. Swedish kids know that thay have great league at home to develop, they dont need to play CHL to become NHLers. The same Finns and Russians

I can see you hate North America

Not, I have no problem with NA or USA, Canada. I like both countries. I dont like NHL policy to Europe, that is all.

Landeskog did a good job over here eh, went from a potential 1st rounder to 2nd overall in the draft....

and? Do you know that Zetterberg was drafted in 7th round? he plays NHL and has won SC. Drafting position is not important, all draft is not important.

 

[scoutman1]

you dont get my point. You say kids are great scouted in CHL and are not in Russia or so. Btw, they are, look at job of KHL scouting agency. Agent + "great scouting in CHL" is problem. You dont need to be scouted to become great player. Scout does not help you with development. He is doing his job, to find new talents. but he does not raise kids. I know it is all about getting drafted to NHL. You are scouted, you are drafted. Agents say kids "come over to play CHL because you will not be scouted and drafted". Nonsense and agents know it. Bobrovsky case to proove it.


and why do they behave like that? I tell you why. Swedish kids know that thay have great league at home to develop, they dont need to play CHL to become NHLers. The same Finns and Russians


Not, I have no problem with NA or USA, Canada. I like both countries. I dont like NHL policy to Europe, that is all.


and? Do you know that Zetterberg was drafted in 7th round? he plays NHL and has won SC. Drafting position is not important, all draft is not important.

for your advice you told me talking about Svitov and stuff was too long ago so same goes for Zetterberg, I am not saying anything about Sweden im friends with Adam Larsson...i know they have good development over there.......

as for the scouts thing again, you said "how does that make a kid better, well I told you so don't change what I said around"

I never said they are not scouted in Russia or Europe I said MORE...the word MORE exposure in North America...

again im not saying anything about the coutries development...im saying CHL does not ruin kids coming from Europe, even the change in game play which if the kid wants to play NHL has to adjust too anyway.

 

[FeedDaPuck]

not true

Zharkov did not impress me at WC 18, Slepyshev, Yakimov, Nichuskin, Barabanov and Osnovin are muuuch better

Are we watching the same games???? Nichushkin and Slepyshev - I will agree on - while they hog the puck a little to much for my liking, they are good. But Yakimov, Osnovin and Barabanov????? Yakimov skates on straight legs, painfully slow and NOT physical for his size, Osnovin - and Barabanov - wow, they are nowhere to be found... Zharkov - take a look at the Latvia and Sweden game - best player on the ice. Sees the ice well, passes the puck, incredible speed.


As for developing playersd - whatever happened to Malenkih - a to 60 lock before the season started and now is painful to watch!

Zharkov was not drafted by a KHL team... Whose fault is that? Can his development be attributed to USHL/CHL now?