RW Matvei Michkov (2023, 7th, PHI) Part 4

[Too2train]

Crazy to think if he was wearing Torpedos jersey today how much differently he would be utilized.

Larionov is an example of what a forward thinking coach with the go ahead from his org, to coach as he sees fit, can do in that league. He is actually deploying a lot of his young guys in key situations. Ex, 20yr old 1st pairing Dman in Konyushkov, Atanasov getting major minutes & PP time and putting up points.

On the other hand, Rottenberg just looks so lost anytime the camera cuts to him, it’s comical. Almost never see him actually engaging in dialogue with his players during the game. Always his assistants or trying to yell at refs.

Can only imagine the damage Michkov could do in that league under Igors deployment. Such a shame.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Didnt realize Sergei Zubov was SKA’s assistant coach. Cool.

Didn't know Igor Larionov was the Novogorod coach

 

[WarriorofTime]

Crazy to think if he was wearing Torpedos jersey today how much differently he would be utilized.

Larionov is an example of what a forward thinking coach with the go ahead from his org, to coach as he sees fit, can do in that league. He is actually deploying a lot of his young guys in key situations. Ex, 20yr old 1st pairing Dman in Konyushkov, Atanasov getting major minutes & PP time and putting up points.

On the other hand, Rottenberg just looks so lost anytime the camera cuts to him, it’s comical. Almost never see him actually engaging in dialogue with his players during the game. Always his assistants or trying to yell at refs.

Can only imagine the damage Michkov could do in that league under Igors deployment. Such a shame.

I believe they also iced a 17 year old player in his first game today. Didn't catch the name.

 

[Hanji]

Crazy to think if he was wearing Torpedos jersey today how much differently he would be utilized.

Larionov is an example of what a forward thinking coach with the go ahead from his org, to coach as he sees fit, can do in that league. He is actually deploying a lot of his young guys in key situations. Ex, 20yr old 1st pairing Dman in Konyushkov, Atanasov getting major minutes & PP time and putting up points.

On the other hand, Rottenberg just looks so lost anytime the camera cuts to him, it’s comical. Almost never see him actually engaging in dialogue with his players during the game. Always his assistants or trying to yell at refs.

Can only imagine the damage Michkov could do in that league under Igors deployment. Such a shame.

Was just thinking the same thing. Michkov on Torpedo would be a dream.

They have like the 3rd lowest budget in the KHL yet are playoff quality because Larionov gets the utmost out of his young players.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Crazy to think if he was wearing Torpedos jersey today how much differently he would be utilized.

Larionov is an example of what a forward thinking coach with the go ahead from his org, to coach as he sees fit, can do in that league. He is actually deploying a lot of his young guys in key situations. Ex, 20yr old 1st pairing Dman in Konyushkov, Atanasov getting major minutes & PP time and putting up points.

On the other hand, Rottenberg just looks so lost anytime the camera cuts to him, it’s comical. Almost never see him actually engaging in dialogue with his players during the game. Always his assistants or trying to yell at refs.

Can only imagine the damage Michkov could do in that league under Igors deployment. Such a shame.

Maybe a trade could be worked out where young Michkov ends up under Larionov's tutelage?

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Tha

I believe they also iced a 17 year old player in his first game today. Didn't catch the name would be

That would be 6-7 RDman Anton Silayev

 

[Fantomas]

I partially agree with you, but we have to address the fact that Michkov is not a normal prospect. Not only is he an elite level talent already, but he played a major role to great success elsewhere in the KHL just last season. So saying "this is normal for guys his age" is true, but also kind of missing the context behind the situation.

At the end of the day, you're probably right that this is just slowly easing him into the lineup and maybe a month from now, no one will care that he was barely playing at this point. But it is still puzzling in this moment nonetheless and people are right to be concerned or even confused.

I'm not missing any context. The fact is that there's very little context available about the situation. What context do you have that I don't?

 

[Hanji]

Didn't know Igor Larionov was the Novogorod coach

Just looked through EP. Didnt realize just how many ex-NHers are in KHL coaching positions. Fedorov, Larionov, Zhamnov, Kovalev, S. Kozlov, Yushkevich, V. Kozlov, Kravchuk, etc, etc.

And Michkov has the luxury of playing under a guy who's never played or coached a game in his life previous to SKA. I dont know whether to laugh or cry.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Just looked through EP. Didnt realize just how many ex-NHers are in KHL coaching positions. Fedorov, Larionov, Zhamnov, Kovalev, S. Kozlov, Yushkevich, V. Kozlov, Kravchuk, etc, etc.

And Michkov has the luxury of playing under a guy who's never played or coached a game in his life previous to SKA. I dont know whether to laugh or cry.

Russian Hockey, like most aspects of Russian society, has lots of cronyism in it. The SKA coach is a nepo baby.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Just looked through EP. Didnt realize just how many ex-NHers are in KHL coaching positions. Fedorov, Larionov, Zhamnov, Kovalev, S. Kozlov, Yushkevich, V. Kozlov, Kravchuk, etc, etc.

And Michkov has the luxury of playing under a guy who's never played or coached a game in his life previous to SKA. I dont know whether to laugh or cry.

I'd cry!

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

If the argument against a player being good is usually an appeal to authority as opposed to a substantive argument, I think that’s how you know the argument is very weak.

If you want to say Michkov isn’t good, explain why. Don’t tell me what SKA is doing. Why should I care about RR’s opinion? He’s his coach. Bad for Michkov, but what about his coaching makes him good at it? Appeals to authority on a message board are the worst.

 

[Fantomas]

Russian Hockey, like most aspects of Russian society, has lots of cronyism in it. The SKA coach is a nepo baby.

This is exactly why the aforementioned statement by a poster that Russia is "nationalizing" the KHL doesn't pass the smell test. Private interests with money still rule. When they fire Rotenberg from this job then maybe we can say something's afoot.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

If Philly is upset about this development path Canes will gladly take Michkov off their hands for 2024 and 2025 1sts.

 

[SomeDude]

The KHL is the top league, the VHL is the 2nd tier league in the Russian hierarchy.

And in the larger view, the NHL is the top league and the AHL and KHL are 2nd tier. That’s what I meant.

 

[FlyguyOX]

If Philly is upset about this development path Canes will gladly take Michkov off their hands for 2024 and 2025 1sts.

Sure just send back Svechnikov too

 

[Team_Spirit]

Loan. Now.

#FreeMichkov

 

[TLEH]

Think it’s just been obvious over the past few years that the KHL has declined rapidly. I think that conversation definitely needs to be had when discussing Michkov’s KHL numbers and how they were seen as historic.

It’s been apparent for the last couple seasons that the AHL is the 2nd best league in the world, with the eye test.

 

[Unger9]

@TLEH
I'm assuming NHLe Translation is compiled case studies on KHL production and subsequent NHL production in the same player and vice versa? That seems like the only way this data means anything

 

[TLEH]

@TLEH
I'm assuming NHLe Translation is compiled case studies on KHL production and subsequent NHL production in the same player and vice versa? That seems like the only way this data means anything

Essentially. Across many leagues.

 

[WarriorofTime]

NHLe is very worthless. It just doesn't matter, as it's all very role dependent. Michkov would likely play top line top powerplay on about half of KHL teams and have good production, if he was playing in the AHL for a farm team of an NHL team that controlled his development, he'd certainly be on the top line as well, but the SKA situation is what it is and he's like a 13th forward. Assuming players are rapidly shooting down depth charts when they go KHL to NHL and rapidly shooting up depth charts when they go NHL to KHL (think Galchenyuk) only tells you so much of the picture, other than "yes, every top top player in the world is in the NHL" which a chart doesn't need to tell you. If you look at the rare situations where players go from top line KHL (think the late-ish breakouts that then subsequently come to the NHL in their early to mid 20s) to top line NHL you get seldom many examples but like Panarin 2015 -> 2016, Kaprizov 2020 -> 2021, Kuzmenko 2022 -> 2023, we see less dramatic effects on production than an NHLe would suggest. Likewise the other way in the rare instances of top line NHL player bolting for KHL like Kovalchuk, not all of a sudden putting up 2 PPG or whatever in the KHL. Again though, that's a while ago as that doesn't happen seldom ever.

With the AHL, players are often groomed for the roles that they will play in the NHL, but the AHL is a developmental league so that makes sense. If you think a guy is a future top liner, he plays top line in the AHL and depending on where the team is at in their cycle, they'll get a similar opportunity in the NHL (Lukas Reichel on the Blackhawks is similar), whereas your bottom 6 prospects tend to also be bottom 6-ish in the AHL, and the AHL veterans on your roster can plug and play as necessary to support the ones viewed as legitimate NHL prospects in their development.

 

[Hinterland]

NHLe is very worthless. It just doesn't matter, as it's all very role dependent. Michkov would likely play top line top powerplay on about half of KHL teams and have good production, if he was playing in the AHL for a farm team of an NHL team that controlled his development, he'd certainly be on the top line as well, but the SKA situation is what it is and he's like a 13th forward. Assuming players are rapidly shooting down depth charts when they go KHL to NHL and rapidly shooting up depth charts when they go NHL to KHL (think Galchenyuk) only tells you so much of the picture, other than "yes, every top top player in the world is in the NHL" which a chart doesn't need to tell you. If you look at the rare situations where players go from top line KHL (think the late-ish breakouts that then subsequently come to the NHL in their early to mid 20s) to top line NHL you get seldom many examples but like Panarin 2015 -> 2016, Kaprizov 2020 -> 2021, Kuzmenko 2022 -> 2023, we see less dramatic effects on production than an NHLe would suggest. Likewise the other way in the rare instances of top line NHL player bolting for KHL like Kovalchuk, not all of a sudden putting up 2 PPG or whatever in the KHL. Again though, that's a while ago as that doesn't happen seldom ever.

With the AHL, players are often groomed for the roles that they will play in the NHL, but the AHL is a developmental league so that makes sense. If you think a guy is a future top liner, he plays top line in the AHL and depending on where the team is at in their cycle, they'll get a similar opportunity in the NHL (Lukas Reichel on the Blackhawks is similar), whereas your bottom 6 prospects tend to also be bottom 6-ish in the AHL, and the AHL veterans on your roster can plug and play as necessary to support the ones viewed as legitimate NHL prospects in their development.

You can make of such models whatever you want but there's no denying that the KHL lost lots of substance over the last years. Shrinking salary cap and lots of players and even teams leaving the league. Now it's back to a league of mostly Russians which wasn't the case a few years back. The KHL wanted to be an international league and had ambitious expansion plans. Not only did they fail, they also lost a good chunk of what they once had. Fair to say today's KHL is a far cry from what it once was. It's a league on the decline.

 

[Fantomas]

AHL is a farm league. It's not a real league in any meaningful sense. One look at the salaries alone tells you all you need to know.

As for fancy-stats experts saying the KHL is declining, they really have no ability to measure talent level over there. Absolutely meaningless gibberish, not to be taken seriously.

I know many people fall for this stuff. Show them a chart with an x-axis and a y-axis and they'll believe it's science. But this doesn't work on those with a modicum of critical skills.

 

[Fantomas]

NHLe is very worthless. It just doesn't matter, as it's all very role dependent. Michkov would likely play top line top powerplay on about half of KHL teams and have good production, if he was playing in the AHL for a farm team of an NHL team that controlled his development, he'd certainly be on the top line as well, but the SKA situation is what it is and he's like a 13th forward.

Fancy stats people don't know what to do with the KHL whatsoever. They're lost.

A good example is Nikolai Kovalenko. According to them he's a borderline NHLer. But those with brains know that he'll likely slide in minimum into a second line role with the Avs.

 

[TLEH]

What other stat besides NHLe could you use to compare players and leagues? Also It’s not even fancy lol. It’s basic math. You can see the two lockout years when a lot of NHL players joined other leagues, like 2013, and 2004/05. It’s not garbage. It’s not the end all be all either, but it doesn’t need to be. Anyone with eyes can see the quality of the USHL going up, guess what? The chart also has it rising up. NCAA as well. It’s not just a bunch of numbers. It reinforces what we already know.

AHL is just a better league at this point: development league or not. It’s a better league.

 

[WarriorofTime]

What other stat besides NHLe could you use to compare players and leagues? Also It’s not even fancy lol. It’s basic math. You can see the two lockout years when a lot of NHL players joined other leagues, like 2013, and 2004/05. It’s not garbage. It’s not the end all be all either, but it doesn’t need to be. Anyone with eyes can see the quality of the USHL going up, guess what? The chart also has it rising up. NCAA as well. It’s not just a bunch of numbers. It reinforces what we already know.

AHL is just a better league at this point: development league or not. It’s a better league.

I know people crave so desperately for all in one stats, but they are by and large junk. Unfortunately, it requires a lot more critical thinking than just looking at some compiled average based on tons of players in completely different situations and making any sort of determination off it. Unfortunately, you actually have to look case-by-case and examine reasons for things and to try and make reasonable determinations. This is too nuanced for most people, so they just want an equivalency chart to tell them how to think.

"AHL is just a better league", well it doesn't pay better, we haven't seen much in IIHF competition to suggest AHL players do better in a head to head capacity with EuroPros. So it's hard to know where you are getting that determination from other than just your blanket assertion.