RW Jake Virtanen (2014, 6th, VAN) III
- Thread starter Woodhouse
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Periwinkle
Registered User
- Apr 3, 2014
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I for one feel sorry for the kid. It seems brutal, the way people are going after him. Yeah, he made some really, really boneheaded plays but I can't imagine how it feels to hear all that vitriol.
Semantics
PUBLIC ENEMY #1
Forwards picked 4th overall at the WJC:
Ryan Johansen - 9 points in 7 games
Evander Kane - 6 points in 6 games
Nicklas Backstrom - 7 points in 6 games (18 yrs), 7 points in 7 games (19 yrs)
Benoit Pouliot - 5 points in 6 games
Andrew Ladd - 7 points in 6 games (19 yrs)
Nikolai Zherdev - 1 point in 6 games
Stephen Weiss - 4 points in 6 games
Pavel Brendl - 10 points in 7 games (19 yrs)
Paul Kariya - 8 points in 7 games (17 yrs), 8 points in 7 games (18 yrs)
Mitch Marner - 6 points in 5 games
I don't see how you can call Marner's performance poor for a 4th overall when statistically it's on par with or better than every comparable over the past 15 years, with the one exception of Johansen (who scored fewer goals than Marner and was on a silver medal team), and statistics don't even tell the full story as Marner generated tons of offense his linemates couldn't capitalize on.
Marner is the only player on that list to lead his team in scoring as a U19 player, too (as did Strome).
Do people really expect even a top 18 year old to walk into this tournament and dominate it like it's the OHL, especially on a year when Canada has a bad team?
Atomos2
Registered User
Lol, I cant believe Virtanen was drafted over guys like Nylander, Ehlers, Larkin, Mccann, Ritchie, Kempe, Fiala, Sanheim...and the list goes on
Best out those group of player you named is Larkin or Ehlers.
The difference between Larkin and Virtanen is waay smaller than the difference between Gauthier and let's say Shea Theodore.
I love me some Virtanen and Im enjoying following him develop. These 5 games are nowhere near an assessment of his style of game. Maybe the undisciplined part yes but everything.else seems hampered by an injury.
twistedsteel76
Registered User
You're a hypocrite. You've been crapping all over Marner in the team Canada thread for days. More viciously than people here on Virtanen.
Despite Virtanen not playing well, I still appreciate the kids talent and work ethic. I wish him lots of luck and feel for him today as he's probably having a tough time.
Just very surprised to hear you being so sensitive to criticism here when you throw it around so viciously towards other kids in other threads.
Now I see why you were dumping so hard on Marner though, it was to deflect from your boy in this thread.
No it wasn't it was 1/3rd as bad at best and he was the reason we were still in it an created our best chacnes in the last minute. If Marner was invisable 5 on 5 i don't know what Virtanen, Point and Perlini were. Virtanen had one good 5 minute stretch in the 2nd this game. He got one 1 point while being paired on a top 6 line and a #1 PP. And how was Marner invisable, when he kept turning the puck over like you claim. Marner, Strome and Barzal were by far our best offensive forward and Konecny should of been given a bigger role.
FACT: Fredrick Gauthier has a better PPG in Junior and in the AHL. By quite a bit actually. And is much more responsible defensively. And plays Center.
Good try, trying to cover for JV though...fail
EDIT: And If anyone cares, Virtanen had 5 minor penalties at the juniors this year, Gauthier had...0 last year.
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twistedsteel76
Registered User
I'm with you.
Jv is very talented but was taken away too high for his skillset and unfortunately is having to live up to his 6th overall position. I wish him luck but every one of those players is more talented.
It's a mistake by the canucks. They took a big gamble on a local kid and put him in a very difficult position. Sending him to the WJ also set up unrealistic expectations especially if he was already injured as some have suggested.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Pretty much the opposite is true unfortunately. The only physical tools that can't really be improved is height...everything else can be. Hockey IQ will not fluctuate much at this point in the development arc...
Physical tools isn't just height and weight , its style and culture of one's game.
I do agree that you can't magically make someone below hockey iq to elite hockey IQ but hockey IQ and Xs and Os and teachjng and developing them is exactly what professional coaches are paid to do on a daily basis.
I think its more to do with anger towards J.V. I could deal with a bad tourney but those 2 penalties while knowing that there was either a 5 on 3 coming or a delayed call incoming is just beyond bad.
From then on no matter what this kid does he will be forever tarnished.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
As a coach at a reasonably high level myself, I am aware of the role of a coach. You can hope to make some in-roads, you can put them in the best situations to succeed as you can. But ultimately, it's difficult to really fulfill the full upside of a player if they don't have hockey sense. Because in the game, you're all adrenaline and quick decisions, and you go with instincts...if you don't have instincts, you're usually gonna be a half-beat (at least) late...
Having no hockey sense isn't a death sentence, particularly for a forward...Jake Virtanen reminds me of Evander Kane. Streak down the wing as fast as you can, rip a hard shot high and wide, run the opposing d-man into the boards in frustration to claim physicality...
Plus: Virtanen has a shot and speed. Like Kane, he really won't work all that well with a heady center because he doesn't think the game the same as him, so therefore he can get his "own" line with two support players that still have the capability of scoring. He can likely be a two- or even three-zone carrier at the NHL level because of his technical skills (which is valuable, because many lower lines in the NHL do not have a capable puck carrier)
Cons: Unlikely to justify his draft position and fulfill the upper reaches of his potential. May peak very early in his career when his physical tools are at their peak and before the book is entirely out on him.
We'll see how it goes. But this is where my money is. I wish him the best as I have no strong feelings for or against him or the team that drafted him...
Black Noise
Flavourtown
FACT: Fredrick Gauthier has a better PPG in Junior and in the AHL. By quite a bit actually. And is much more responsible defensively. And plays Center.
Good try, trying to cover for JV though...fail
EDIT: And If anyone cares, Virtanen had 5 minor penalties at the juniors this year, Gauthier had...0 last year.
You're using Virtanen's pre draft year in calculating the PPG average. This isn't fair considering Gauthier didn't play in the Q in his pre draft year. It would be more fair to just compare their draft and post draft years, if you do this Virtanen has a higher PPG and not to mention a MUCH higher GPG statistic.
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This thread has turned into a gong show.
The guy has done utterly nothing since he was drafted. He had a mediocre 1 plus draft year in Calgary . In fact scored noticeably less goals. He then scored 1 point in 10 games in the AHL .
This year he was gifted onto the Canucks and produced 4 points in 19 games before he got benched then eventually injured. , went to the AHL for a game and got nothing then played in this tournament on the top line and got 1 assist while taking ridiculous penalties that cost his team.
Where is all this 'amazing talent' ? Those accolades dried up a year and a half ago at the draft. Its not June 2014 anymore. Its Jan 2016
The guy has done utterly nothing since he was drafted. He had a mediocre 1 plus draft year in Calgary . In fact scored noticeably less goals. He then scored 1 point in 10 games in the AHL .
This year he was gifted onto the Canucks and produced 4 points in 19 games before he got benched then eventually injured. , went to the AHL for a game and got nothing then played in this tournament on the top line and got 1 assist while taking ridiculous penalties that cost his team.
Where is all this 'amazing talent' ? Those accolades dried up a year and a half ago at the draft. Its not June 2014 anymore. Its Jan 2016
Volica
Papa Shango
- May 15, 2012
- 22,021
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I'm going to jump into this thread that's been severely derailed, unfortunately.
I've followed this kid for the better part of three years, because I'm a Hitmen guy. My fear for him was always that his game wouldn't translate well to the NHL; simply because he really bullied his way through the juniors. He wasn't going to be able to play that same game against men, simply because they weren't 16 year olds. This guy, at his draft; and in my opinion (ONLY my opinion, I'm neither right nor wrong) was being drafted in the hopes that his IQ could catch up to the physical prowess that this guy possess. Most people have never seen him play outside of the WJC and a few Canuck games; but this kid can fly and had probably the best shot in his draft year.
I will excuse his poor play at the WJC this year by saying that he's a Dub boy; and the ugliness that he tended to get pounded down with, is something that would be fairly normal. But this kids head needs to catch up with the rest of his assets; and don't fool yourself, this guy does have the right tools... but he has to get that right toolbox in order to use'em all.
Listen, he's 19 years old, and came off a bad tournament and has had some struggles transitioning to the NHL on a poor Vancouver team... Some of you folks are a bit too quick to write this kid off or pat your team on that back because you selected what you deem someone better two picks later. He's a powerforward and he'll have to learn this game against men, unfortunately, he's also in that weird age (Sam Bennett knows something about this) where his only two options are playing in juniors or playing in the NHL... I have a feeling we'll start seeing some more European clubs or the AHL start making exception rules for certain players (and not conditioning stints).
It's like we forget about the Tim Erixon's this forum had for Anthony Mantha a couple years back after the WJC. It means nothing folks, and neither does a kids first 20 games in the NHL
I've followed this kid for the better part of three years, because I'm a Hitmen guy. My fear for him was always that his game wouldn't translate well to the NHL; simply because he really bullied his way through the juniors. He wasn't going to be able to play that same game against men, simply because they weren't 16 year olds. This guy, at his draft; and in my opinion (ONLY my opinion, I'm neither right nor wrong) was being drafted in the hopes that his IQ could catch up to the physical prowess that this guy possess. Most people have never seen him play outside of the WJC and a few Canuck games; but this kid can fly and had probably the best shot in his draft year.
I will excuse his poor play at the WJC this year by saying that he's a Dub boy; and the ugliness that he tended to get pounded down with, is something that would be fairly normal. But this kids head needs to catch up with the rest of his assets; and don't fool yourself, this guy does have the right tools... but he has to get that right toolbox in order to use'em all.
Listen, he's 19 years old, and came off a bad tournament and has had some struggles transitioning to the NHL on a poor Vancouver team... Some of you folks are a bit too quick to write this kid off or pat your team on that back because you selected what you deem someone better two picks later. He's a powerforward and he'll have to learn this game against men, unfortunately, he's also in that weird age (Sam Bennett knows something about this) where his only two options are playing in juniors or playing in the NHL... I have a feeling we'll start seeing some more European clubs or the AHL start making exception rules for certain players (and not conditioning stints).
It's like we forget about the Tim Erixon's this forum had for Anthony Mantha a couple years back after the WJC. It means nothing folks, and neither does a kids first 20 games in the NHL
The Winter Soldier
Registered User
- Apr 4, 2011
- 71,030
- 21,383
I'm not going to read this entire thread, I can surmise reading the GDT's many are not happy with Virtanen.
I thought he played better in his last 2 games, but as with most of the team. He could have been better. He took some bad PIMS and he was the victim of some blatant embellishing by the Finns too.
Regardless, if it is true that the WJC is only a short sample of games, then maybe he can resurrect his reputation with his play from here on in. But I think this tourney will stick with him for awhile since most know these 5 games in a tournament like this are not your normal 5 short sample games.
I thought he played better in his last 2 games, but as with most of the team. He could have been better. He took some bad PIMS and he was the victim of some blatant embellishing by the Finns too.
Regardless, if it is true that the WJC is only a short sample of games, then maybe he can resurrect his reputation with his play from here on in. But I think this tourney will stick with him for awhile since most know these 5 games in a tournament like this are not your normal 5 short sample games.
I don't think a bad WJC is much to worry about, its more how it fits with his last 18 months. Vancouver is doing him no favors though, send him back to the WHL where he can regain some confidence, 4th line minutes is not going to do that.
Agreed there. Seems like the obvious choice to send him down that everyone except Vancouver office understands.
The issue here has always been that he was over drafted by about 20 spots.
You can't really differentiate tools and toolbox. They develop together and the area where Virtanen has developed is in barreling down the wing. Expecting other parts of his game to be there will disappoint you. As someone else mentioned, he can become Evander Kane (more of a hitter). He's not going to develop a whole new game-style.
Towards that end, while his development this year looks stunted, I don't think that is the case. People like to correlate stat production with improvement and when it isn't there it gets easy to ignore steps forward. Jake has improved a lot defensively and exiting the Dzone. Improvement doesn't mean he's good (he's far from that at the NHL level) but there's no reason to write him off or even be any more concerned than when the pick was first made (if anything it's now clear his physical ability can translate to the NHL).
You can't really differentiate tools and toolbox. They develop together and the area where Virtanen has developed is in barreling down the wing. Expecting other parts of his game to be there will disappoint you. As someone else mentioned, he can become Evander Kane (more of a hitter). He's not going to develop a whole new game-style.
Towards that end, while his development this year looks stunted, I don't think that is the case. People like to correlate stat production with improvement and when it isn't there it gets easy to ignore steps forward. Jake has improved a lot defensively and exiting the Dzone. Improvement doesn't mean he's good (he's far from that at the NHL level) but there's no reason to write him off or even be any more concerned than when the pick was first made (if anything it's now clear his physical ability can translate to the NHL).
Canucks LB
My Favourite, Gone too soon, RIP Luc, We miss you
- Oct 12, 2008
- 80,201
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Here are a list of a few names, tell me what all of them have in common.
Cody Hodgson
Jordan Schroeder
Magnus Paajarvi
Filatov
Justin Pogge
Brett Connolly
Brandon McMillan
Luke Adam
Brayden Schenn
Ryan Parent
Mattias Tedenby
The world juniors means absolutely **** all, the bigger problem is that outside the World Juniors, he seems to regressed. He needs to go back to the basics, and play in the AHL for a good 2 years before he is back in the show.
Cody Hodgson
Jordan Schroeder
Magnus Paajarvi
Filatov
Justin Pogge
Brett Connolly
Brandon McMillan
Luke Adam
Brayden Schenn
Ryan Parent
Mattias Tedenby
The world juniors means absolutely **** all, the bigger problem is that outside the World Juniors, he seems to regressed. He needs to go back to the basics, and play in the AHL for a good 2 years before he is back in the show.
clunk
Registered User
The amount of judging how players are going to turn out based on one tournament or a bad season is getting crazy.... So many examples of players who have had weak D+1 seasons or a bad WJC but turned into great nhlers. All these kids like yourself saying that 4 unknowns will DEFINITELY turn out better than Virtanen or MDC are just out to lunch... Letting the fact that he did indeed hurt Canada in a big way get in the way of your judging his ENTIRE career is understandable but also very unfair. He's 19 years old and has amazing tools. Yes, I wanted Nylander or Ehlers and was pissed when JB skipped on them, but I also have hope that Virtanen will become a great NHLer and I'm not ready to judge him after one bad tournament.
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