RW Jake Virtanen (2014, 6th, VAN) III

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Well clearly you don't. No point in me trying to argue with you. You obviously doesn't need any sorts of smarts to score goals.

Sorry to say that the game isn't all about offense.

That's a lie and you know it. Seriously? You obviously doesn't have an answer for that one.

No because he was still considered a safe pick? He just wasn't as likely to reach his top potential as maybe some other guys. But he was still likely to make the NHL. If you have paid attention to any highly regarded power forward prospects over the years you'd know this.

Clearly you don't value athleticism all that much. If you read half of the posts that i've posted last page you'd know that i wasn't a fan of the pick, so no need to constantly make it sound like i was.

You keep using strawman arguments like it helps your case.

Nobody is saying Virtanen has no smarts. He just doesn't have high IQ relative to other offensive prospects.

Nobody is saying that the game is all about offense. But you don't waste top picks on defensive forwards, and it's far easier to teach a guy to forecheck and play defense than it is to teach a guy to create offense.

Nobody is saying athleticism doesn't matter. But it's not that valuable without high level IQ.

I don't know what to tell you. You admit that it's tough to project power forwards but then go on to say he was a safe pick. Obviously, it didn't end up being all that safe when compared to guys like Ehlers and Nylander, who are already impact players at the NHL level. Meanwhile Virtanen might not even end up an NHL player.

Maybe think about that.

 

[Eternalize]

You keep using strawman arguments like it helps your case.

Nobody is saying Virtanen has no smarts. He just doesn't have high IQ relative to other offensive prospects.

Nobody is saying that the game is all about offense. But you don't waste top picks on defensive forwards, and it's far easier to teach a guy to forecheck and play defense than it is to teach a guy to create offense.

Nobody is saying athleticism doesn't matter. But it's not that valuable without high level IQ.

I don't know what to tell you. You admit that it's tough to project power forwards but then go on to say he was a safe pick. Obviously, it didn't end up being all that safe when compared to guys like Ehlers and Nylander, who are already impact players at the NHL level. Meanwhile Virtanen might not even end up an NHL player.

Maybe think about that.

You said that his 45 goals doesn't mean anything in regards of him being a good offensive player in junior in his draft year. That it had nothing to do with smarts.

And again, it's not like Virtanen was completely miserable offensively in his draft year. And he had a rare combo which was intriguing. It's hard to get a hold of a power forward that's good enough to play in your top6. And again, i wasn't a fan of the pick so no reason to say that you don't waste picks on defensive forwards. You aren't educating me anything.

Not if you are trying to make it into a top6 role, yes. Bottom6 is different.

Well you understand the things you want to understand, right? Don't know how it's hard to understand why he was considered a safe pick, and why Nylander and Ehlers were considered riskier picks with high reward. And when i'm saying that, i'm talking about the general opinion people/scouts/experts had on Virtanen in his draft year. But yeah, it's extremely hard to tell how things are a couple of years later when you're starting to get a clearer view of how good/bad the players are. Then it's easy to call how obvious the pick should have been.

 

[BDizzle*]

I commented in this thread a few times yesterday, and was quite surprised to see all the comments overnight. The back and forth debate seems pretty one-side too, especially because the people defending Virtanen have no basis to go on other than his good draft year. Yes scoring 45 goals in a draft year is a good feat, however; what has he done since then? He hasn't done anything worthy of his draft position and instead seems to be regressing. His draft year could also be an extended hot-streak or an anomaly as well as he hasn't impressed since then. It may be a confidence thing, or perhaps he simply isn't good enough to translate to the pro level. This is the biggest hurdle for many young prospects, but unfortunately; many of them can't adapt.

It may be a bit premature to call Virtanen an outright bust at this point, but as many posters are stating, it simply does not look to good at this point for him. He definitely is trending downward and at this point can't even crack the roster of a terrible NHL team on the 4th line. I have serious doubts he will ever amount to much of an offensive player in this league, and thus at best he can potentially be a 3rd and 4th liner. But again, he doesn't even seem to be able to grasp that once the opportunity was given. I think a trade has to happen to save face from management, and that is most likely what they will do. Luckily, I also think this will be the best for Virtanen as I can't see him amounting to anything in Vancouver. A change of scenery may help his development...but before I am misquoted, if we stays in Vancouver I just can't see him being an NHL player.

 

[Eternalize]

I commented in this thread a few times yesterday, and was quite surprised to see all the comments overnight. The back and forth debate seems pretty one-side too, especially because the people defending Virtanen have no basis to go on other than his good draft year. Yes scoring 45 goals in a draft year is a good feat, however; what has he done since then? He hasn't done anything worthy of his draft position and instead seems to be regressing. His draft year could also be an extended hot-streak or an anomaly as well as he hasn't impressed since then. It may be a confidence thing, or perhaps he simply isn't good enough to translate to the pro level. This is the biggest hurdle for many young prospects, but unfortunately; many of them can't adapt.

It may be a bit premature to call Virtanen an outright bust at this point, but as many posters are stating, it simply does not look to good at this point for him. He definitely is trending downward and at this point can't even crack the roster of a terrible NHL team on the 4th line. I have serious doubts he will ever amount to much of an offensive player in this league, and thus at best he can potentially be a 3rd and 4th liner. But again, he doesn't even seem to be able to grasp that once the opportunity was given. I think a trade has to happen to save face from management, and that is most likely what they will do. Luckily, I also think this will be the best for Virtanen as I can't see him amounting to anything in Vancouver. A change of scenery may help his development...but before I am misquoted, if we stays in Vancouver I just can't see him being an NHL player.

A lot of people seems to misunderstand my whole point. Especially this Devils-guy, it nearly seems like he doesn't want to understand my points/opinions just to be a pain in the ass. I have said multiple times that i never was a fan of the pick. I have criticised the pick many times. Like most Canucks-fans, i wanted Nylander or Ehlers over Virtanen. If they would have went for the more physical alternative, i prefered Ritchie over Virtanen even though Virtanens skating were levels better.

I don't consider myself a "defender" just because i refuse to write off a guy 2 years after being drafted. Not a defender of the player, definitely not a defender of management because they've made some horrible decisions. But in my mind, it's not like Virtanen didn't have any potential AT ALL to be a good NHL-player (top6 player), like the Devils-guy seems to think. You don't have to be hockeys answer to Einstein (having high hockey IQ) to be a top6 player. If Virtanen would've developed the right way he COULD have been a very rare and useful player. But again, maybe he wasn't as likely to hit that ceiling as Nylander and Ehlers were.

Hopefully he will stay with Utica for the rest of the year. If so i will give him the rest of the year until i really start to doubt his chances of even being an NHLer as some already seems to think. The guy played limited minutes last year and even less this year in the NHL, i'd like to see how he does when he's playing top minutes for a larger period of time, because he hasn't done that so far in his professional career. And i do consider that a different kind of environment for him. 1st he's the guy that the team doesn't rely upon much (like with the Canucks), and then he's supposed to be THE guy on the team, like he was supposed to be in junior.

I also don’t know how i'd be a defender for saying that i believe he could make a NHL career as a 3rd liner. A lot of less talented players made it as 3rd liners. Him not being a 3rd liner at 20 doesn't really mean anything. The path for every player making this league is long, and every path is different. A lot of players doesn't crack the league until they're 25. Let's say that Virtanen long-term doubles the points he had last year in the NHL (7 goals, 13 points in 55 games) at the age of 19, while also rounding out his defensive side of the game a little. That along with the fact that he CAN be a physically dominant player. Then that's easily a 3rd liner to me. Especially considering how much the scoring have gone down in the league over the years. And i don't know how saying that he can be a 3rd liner long-term sounds too optimistic, considering he does have the tools to be one.

 

[Huggy43]

Looks like we're due for thread #4. Isn't someone popular...

 

[Siludin]

I'm still really excited for Virtanen.

I am currently looking at Kadri as a comparable. At the same age, Kadri was just getting started with the Marlies and won't have played as many games as Virtanen for another two full years.

 

[BDizzle*]

I'm still really excited for Virtanen.

I am currently looking at Kadri as a comparable. At the same age, Kadri was just getting started with the Marlies and won't have played as many games as Virtanen for another two full years.

Kadri is an interesting example and may have some comparables. But regardless of the number of NHL games played at the same age, Kadri showed he was dominant in Junior in his D+1 year, and also put up great AHL totals too right from the start. He was developed the right way for the most part, with some questionable yo-yo moves from the NHL to the AHL. But regardless of where he played, he was putting up respectable numbers and was improving.

Virtanen only really has the yo-yo NHL to AHL as a comparable. He hasn't put up good numbers since his draft year in junior, and isn't producing at either the NHL or AHL level. Rather than improving like Kadri was, he seems to be regressing.

Also, Kadri learned how to play a more difficult position. It is quite a bit tougher for a young centerman to learn the pro game than it is for a complimentary winger.

 

[Aceboogie]

I'm still really excited for Virtanen.

I am currently looking at Kadri as a comparable. At the same age, Kadri was just getting started with the Marlies and won't have played as many games as Virtanen for another two full years.

I wouldnt say Kadri is a good comparison. Kadri was a ppg+ player in draft year, improved PPG in draft +1 (93 points), then was a near PPG player in the AHL. Almost double ppg in (very short) NHL time. Not to mention very different styles

I think a good comparison is Raffi Torres. #5 pick in 2000. 43 goals in his draft year. PPG decreased in draft +1. 30 points in 59 games in rookie AHL season. Similar NHL numbers (but very early on). Similar styles.

Torres hit 27 goals in the NHL, and was a solid player albeit embattled and often reckless

 

[McMatthews]

I'm still really excited for Virtanen.

I am currently looking at Kadri as a comparable. At the same age, Kadri was just getting started with the Marlies and won't have played as many games as Virtanen for another two full years.

Kadri was and is supremely more skilled than Virtanen. He was also a totally different type of player. Kadri was a smaller, finesse playmaker. Virtanen was a bigger, powerforward type player.

Virtanen is Taylor Pyatt or Chad Kilger.

 

[DeltaSwede]

Gonna be an exciting time if Jake becomes the player he's got the potential to be. I wonder how many of you would admit you were wrong or carry on your captain hindsight ways.

All I see in this thread are Leaf fans sticking it to the Canucks over and over again.

 

[Kamiccolo]

Gonna be an exciting time if Jake becomes the player he's got the potential to be. I wonder how many of you would admit you were wrong or carry on your captain hindsight ways.

All I see in this thread are Leaf fans sticking it to the Canucks over and over again.

I would have him as my avatar for the next several seasons if he ever even manages to score 20 goals in an NHL season.

 

[BDizzle*]

Gonna be an exciting time if Jake becomes the player he's got the potential to be. I wonder how many of you would admit you were wrong or carry on your captain hindsight ways.

All I see in this thread are Leaf fans sticking it to the Canucks over and over again.

Logically, the reason why you see it that way is because it is the Canucks Management that is toying with Virtanen. They are seriously hampering his development, doesn't take blind eyes to see that. But then again he only had one great junior year to begin with so maybe he isn't the prospect people thought he was during his draft year.

I can't imagine him becoming a solid NHL contributor with the Canucks, but if he is traded; he may be able to blossom under another organization to the point of him reaching a 3rd or 4th line status. Even with that said, I still think that is a big if.

I won't apologize if your opinion differs from mine, but if he does turn out to be anything other than a productive 3rd or 4th line player I will gladly admit I am wrong. I just can't logically see that happening, especially in the Vancouver environment due to current management and coaching. I admit I would be hard pressed to see him even make it as anything other than a 3rd or 4th player anywhere in this league though.

 

[LV*]

Only 2 assists in 7 games in the AHL, have only heard bad things about him from mutual friends who have played hockey with and against him. Heard he loves the casino and actually saw him once at a casino in Kelowna. Take that as you will but the kid clearly needs to mature a lot of he will ever make an impact in the NHL.

1 of those assists is on an empty netter fwiw

 

[Bear of Bad News]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2156861