Rumor: Rumors & Proposals Thread | The Road to the Draft June 28th and 29th

[Broberg Speed]

Did you even read my post? I address your points in the 2nd half -

"Put a 6'4 beside the word "center" on a player's bio, and GMs tend to go a bit goofy."

"Puljujarvi is a bit of a bad example <insert reasons>"

Goofy as hell. I've seen nothing but bust from Byfield.

 

[Took a pill in Sbisa]

I believe Imoo got let go by Toronto for some tweets or something. I completely disagree with somoene being fired for expressing their opinions no matter what they are, as long as they are competent in their job and do not disrupt the workplace.

..but the optics probably have something to do with it unfortunately.

How long does a goalie coach need to be cancelled for liking a few tweets years ago that nobody even remembers though? If we can bring in Evander Kane on a multi year deal to play next to McDavid, we can bring in Dusty Emoo as a goaltending consultant.

 

[Heavy Dee]

Not necessarily. They can dump yamo in his hometown Seattle for a 3rd or 4th or wherever later on. Maybe they will take him but I doubt it.

Dump Ceci for a similar return we get from Yamo.

There's a few ways to make things work.

Seattle had 9-10 forwards better than him. They aren't giving up anything for him.

 

[FlameChampion]

I don't doubt they've got bigger aspirations. They've got a ton of trade capital to work with, a lot of cap opening up beyond next season and some significant prospects to work into their roster. They're positioned well.

At the end of the day they still have McLellan who cant adjust in the playoffs.

 

[CupofOil]

You also have to look at the circumstances of why those specific players were involved in these deals. In a number of cases it would have been the other team initiating the deal. Look at the Florida and Anaheim deals for example. My guess is that any pro scout would have been able to say yes to these deals as the players involved were obvious targets. The Anaheim deal for example would have been like the Oilers contacting Seattle and saying we don't want you to pick Larsson so we will give you Bouchard. For the Florida example, the offer would have been Nuge and say Yamamoto. I could have told Seattle that these were good deals. Marchasault was coming off a 30 goal 51 point season and Smith had already had two 20 goal 50+ point seasons. So it's not like the pro scouts had to dig deep to find out who these guys were. Tuch was a blue chip prospect.

I still say that since the expansion pretty much all of their big moves that have succeeded have come form big name players who wanted to go to Vegas. The only real find was Stephenson who they got for a 5th from Washington.

They picked up Nic Roy off the scrap heap as well who is a high end 3rd liner, when have the Oilers ever had found money like that? Amadio was a fringe 4th liner and now he's doubling his numbers in Vegas. That's 3 guys they picked up for nothing that turned into legit top 9 players with Stevenson being a top liner. Carrier is another, some guy named Paul Cotter had 13 goals this year, Alec Martinez was a smart trade etc.
They made the Cup Finals before all the big names came to Vegas.
Conversely, the Oilers had two of the biggest names in the sport fall into their laps and, 8 years later, they made one conference finals in which they got swept.

I'm not trying to make this an Oilers vs. Knights thing. Just illustrating how good Vegas's pro scouting has been. Yeah, some luck has been involved which every team needs at some point to win big but when you consistently contend at a high level over a 6 year period with lots of names recycling in and out, you're doing something really right.
FTR, I hate Vegas but I can admit when they're doing something well and that organization is a well oiled machine.

 

[Senor Catface]

They picked up Nic Roy off the scrap heap as well who is a high end 3rd liner, when have the Oilers ever had found money like that? Amadio was a fringe 4th liner and now he's doubling his numbers in Vegas. That's 3 guys they picked up for nothing that turned into legit top 9 players with Stevenson being a top liner. Carrier is another, some guy named Paul Cotter had 13 goals this year, Alec Martinez was a smart trade etc.

The guy in your profile picture seems like one.

 

[Vagabond]

Seattle had 9-10 forwards better than him. They aren't giving up anything for him.

They might look at his rookie season and last season's production and think he's worth the reclamation risk.

 

[ottawah]

I don't understand the fascination with Byfield other than his draft pedigree and size. His value isn't more than a late 2nd rounder and I don't think many teams would offer even that.

The way he is finally playing? No way. He was about the youngest player in his draft, had a few injury setbacks but by the end of the year was picking up steam.

4 points in 6 playoff games. Had a ten point ten game stretch towards the end of the year. Just 20, and big guys tend to take some extra time to adapt, i.e. Tage Thompson.

You are not getting him for a very high draft pick, likely a top 5 this year, much less a late second rounder.

 

[CupofOil]

The guy in your profile picture seems like one.

I love Klim but Roy is much better right now.

Kostin is a feather in the Oilers cap, but he's one of two feathers they've had in the last...15? years with the other being Maroon and I suppose you can add Kassian as well.

 

[FlameChampion]

They picked up Nic Roy off the scrap heap as well who is a high end 3rd liner, when have the Oilers ever had found money like that? Amadio was a fringe 4th liner and now he's doubling his numbers in Vegas. That's 3 guys they picked up for nothing that turned into legit top 9 players with Stevenson being a top liner. Carrier is another, some guy named Paul Cotter had 13 goals this year, Alec Martinez was a smart trade etc.
They made the Cup Finals before all the big names came to Vegas.
Conversely, the Oilers had two of the biggest names in the sport fall into their laps and, 8 years later, they made one conference finals in which they got swept.

I'm not trying to make this an Oilers vs. Knights thing. Just illustrating how good Vegas's pro scouting has been. Yeah, some luck has been involved which every team needs at some point to win big but when you consistently contend at a high level over a 6 year period with lots of names recycling in and out, you're doing something really right.
FTR, I hate Vegas but I can admit when they're doing something well and that organization is a well oiled machine.

I think Vegas has better pro scouting obviously.

I do wonder with the Oilers though, if bottom 6 guys just dont get enough ice time to feel good or feel like they are part of the team. We had the best bottom 6 we have had in a long time (by the end of the season) and I feel like we didnt use them enough. I really hope that McDrai get their ice time dropped especially in the regular season. Coaching staff has to play and trust bottom 6 guys (along with prospects like Holloway) better than they have.

 

[CupofOil]

Like any player if you are good you get paid. So goalies that get paid have a track record. We do not put a priority on them in the draft and we do not put a priority on them to go after a true big fishes, Thus we get exactly what we deserve. Sitting at home and wondering how a team like vegas who should not be better than us wins the cup.

While being backstopped by a goalie that had a career high of 25 starts in a season. I'm not sure that supports your theory of going big for goaltending.

 

[FlameChampion]

While being backstopped by a goalie that had a career high of 25 starts in a season. I'm not sure that supports your theory of going big for goaltending.

Yeah, Hill who was a nobody is playing out of his mind. Bobrovsky who was washed up and not considered a playoff goaltender played out of his mind in Rounds 1 to 3.

Meanwhile all the "good" goaltenders like Hellebuyck, Oettinger, Vasi, Ullmark etc pretty much sh*t the bed these playoffs. Who honestly knows with goaltending.

 

[NotASheep]

The Oilers should be in on Hart - but it would really need to make sense on multiple levels. To be clear, I wouldn't make the below trade, judt trying to think about what it would take to get Hart while moving out Campbell. I think it would be wiser to just stick with Campbell and hope for a bounce back.

Campbell would need to be heading the other way - this raises the price for the Oilers. The Oilers could retain on Campbell to the tune of 20% of his cap hit, 1M/year - this would result in their goaltending cap-hit with Hart this coming season being effectively the same as it would be with Campbell. The Flyers would be saddled with Petersen and Campbell as their goaltending tandem for two years, with Campbell on the books a further 2 seasons.

I could see the Flyers being interested in:

TIER ONE
Holloway
Broberg
Bourgault

TIER TWO
Lavoie
Savoie
Petrov
Tullio
Niemelainen

So, let's make a deal based on the Oilers getting Hart and Cap space and the Flyers getting what they need (top prospects) PLUS the Oilers sweetening the pot to move Campbell out.

To Edmonton:
Carter Hart - 3.979M AAV, RFA with arb rights in 2024
Scott Laughton - 3.0M AAV, 3 years left

To Philly:
Kailer Yamamoto 3.1M AAV, RFA in 2024 (cap dump, Flyers buy him out)
Ryan McLeod, RFA with arb rights (estimated cap hit 2M)
Philip Broberg (former 1st round pick D with high potential)
Jack Campbell (at 3.8M AAV, Oilers retain 20% - 1M/year)
EDM 1st Round pick in 2024 or 2025
EDM 4th Round pick in 2025

Flyers get 3 solid, young building blocks (Broberg, McLeod and a 1st) for Hart + Laughton, plus an extra pick effectively to taking on Yamamoto and buying him out (4th in 2025). Oilers get a no.1 goalie and 3rd line C/W under contract.

The Oilers could then move out Warren Foegele for a draft pick to free up more cap space and replace him with a UFA winger / cheaper option. This could be Bjugstad on RW at 1.75M. Third line next season could potentially be Holloway - Laughton - Bjugstad.

The biggest issue here is that their are much cleaner deals for the Flyers if they move Hart.

Winnipeg, Toronto, Ottawa, L.A., San Jose, Carolina, NJD and Montreal (just off the top) could probably all make a deal that doesn't require the Flyers to take on any baggage.

I can see flyer fans not happy adding Laughton to that deal. Also, they just took the dump from theKings of a goalie on a bad contract. Can not see them taking another one. A case could be made that to move Cambell it will take the first, Broberg, the 4th and Mcleod. Leaving Yamamoto for Carter and Laughton

 

[Fourier]

They picked up Nic Roy off the scrap heap as well who is a high end 3rd liner, when have the Oilers ever had found money like that? Amadio was a fringe 4th liner and now he's doubling his numbers in Vegas. That's 3 guys they picked up for nothing that turned into legit top 9 players with Stevenson being a top liner. Carrier is another, some guy named Paul Cotter had 13 goals this year, Alec Martinez was a smart trade etc.
They made the Cup Finals before all the big names came to Vegas.
Conversely, the Oilers had two of the biggest names in the sport fall into their laps and, 8 years later, they made one conference finals in which they got swept.

I'm not trying to make this an Oilers vs. Knights thing. Just illustrating how good Vegas's pro scouting has been. Yeah, some luck has been involved which every team needs at some point to win big but when you consistently contend at a high level over a 6 year period with lots of names recycling in and out, you're doing something really right.
FTR, I hate Vegas but I can admit when they're doing something well and that organization is a well oiled machine.

They got Nic Roy for Erik Haula. It's hard to say that this was a big win for the pro scouts since they clearly gave up the better player. Roy struggled for his first two years in Vegas. Even now he's probably only modestly better than Foegele who the Oilers got for Bear. If he continues to improve, this could be a more significant win.

Cotter was a 2018 draft choice. Carrier was from the expansion draft. He was a former second round pick who at 28 has broken 20 points twice.

Stephenson is a gem, no question. But this is a little like when Chicago's scouts got a rep as being top notch for finding guys in late rounds. But then if you looked closer the same scouts were blowing their top picks. I mean you can say that Hjalmarsson was a great pick at 108, but then what do you say about the same guys missing all the picks before then including picking Jack Skille at #7 with Kopitar still on the board. Vegas roles through players at an alarming rate. If they did not find the odd good player it would be shocking. But in the end their success is mostly due to the gifts they got at the expansion draft and the players who either forced their way there or chose Vegas as free agents. .

They are a solid team but frankly their success this year has been with a lot of puck luck and from riding a very unexpected hot goalie. I would not consider exchanging rosters with Vegas if I was the Oilers.

 

[Fourier]

Dach was coming off a career high 9 goals, 26 points(22, 10, 26 points over 3 years) , was up and down the lineup, had a serious injury the year before, and lots of teams were still eager to get him. He ended up pulling an upper-mid first round draft pick, and Montreal was only too happy to fork over a 3.4 mill a year contract after getting him.

Put a 6'4 beside the word "center" on a player's bio, and GMs tend to go a bit goofy. Puljujarvi is a bit of a bad example though, as he likely tanked his rep around the league by the end of his ELC contract driving both Mclellan and Hitchcock up the wall.

The reference to JP was after his 20 year old season. He had not really screwed up that much by then, he just was not looking like what he was expected to be.

There is a difference in trading a pick and trading Hellebuyck for a hope and prayer. Dach had also already shown he could play at a high level. Byfield has not. In the end if the price for Hellebuyck was anywhere close to Byfield + Iaffalo, the Oilers could easily beat that.

 

[McShogun99]

I think Vegas has better pro scouting obviously.

I do wonder with the Oilers though, if bottom 6 guys just dont get enough ice time to feel good or feel like they are part of the team. We had the best bottom 6 we have had in a long time (by the end of the season) and I feel like we didnt use them enough. I really hope that McDrai get their ice time dropped especially in the regular season. Coaching staff has to play and trust bottom 6 guys (along with prospects like Holloway) better than they have.

I'd rather see McDrai get 20 minutes a night and be more rested for the playoffs.

I can see flyer fans not happy adding Laughton to that deal. Also, they just took the dump from theKings of a goalie on a bad contract. Can not see them taking another one. A case could be made that to move Cambell it will take the first, Broberg, the 4th and Mcleod. Leaving Yamamoto for Carter and Laughton

If teams want Hart just wait until the Flyers don't qualify him and sign him as a UFA. He's not going to cost much to sign on a 1 year deal. Send down one of Campbell or Hart depending on their training camp.

 

[Soundwave]

They got Nic Roy for Erik Haula. It's hard to say that this was a big win for the pro scouts since they clearly gave up the better player. Roy struggled for his first two years in Vegas. Even now he's probably only modestly better than Foegele who the Oilers got for Bear. If he continues to improve, this could be a more significant win.

Cotter was a 2018 draft choice. Carrier was from the expansion draft. He was a former second round pick who at 28 has broken 20 points twice.

Stephenson is a gem, no question. But this is a little like when Chicago's scouts got a rep as being top notch for finding guys in late rounds. But then if you looked closer the same scouts were blowing their top picks. I mean you can say that Hjalmarsson was a great pick at 108, but then what do you say about the same guys missing all the picks before then including picking Jack Skille at #7 with Kopitar still on the board. Vegas roles through players at an alarming rate. If they did not find the odd good player it would be shocking. But in the end their success is mostly due to the gifts they got at the expansion draft and the players who either forced their way there or chose Vegas as free agents. .

They are a solid team but frankly their success this year has been with a lot of puck luck and from riding a very unexpected hot goalie. I would not consider exchanging rosters with Vegas if I was the Oilers.

Even with their "bad moves" they end up with a useful player in Nic Roy who's been a right shot center that's contributed well to two deep playoff runs for them, the Oilers have what to show for example Jesse Puljujarvi, Tyler Benson and soon Kailer Yamamoto? Dick all.

We have plenty of player turn around, why don't we seem to find any of these break out types that often?

Of course we wouldn't change rosters but that has nothing to do with our scouts or GMs, it's only because we got gifted McDavid and Draisaitl for basically losing on purpose. That's not anything to crow about.

I would take Brad McCrimmon and their scouts over ours any day of the week. Get those bums out of here, can't build a half decent defence or goaltending after years and years and 1st round pick after 1st round pick.

 

[bobbythebrain]

Damn the Vegas boot licking is painful

I remember when they did the draft virtually everyone was saying how crappy they did, and how dumb they were. Then they started winning and the same people acted as if they didn't say that, praising their genius

Now here we are again, seeing people acting like they are a brilliant org who's on coach 3

They went into the season w/ no goaltending cuz they royally f'ed their situation with Fluery/Lehner. Yet they are geniuses while Edm are bozos for playing a rookie in Skinner

I think people seriously underestimate the Vegas flu and it's success on the team over the years. They also have the luxury of tax

Truth is this team has f'ed ALOT of things up. Fluery, Suzucki,Glass, Patches, Alex Tuch, Nate Schmidt, Dadanov

If this team would have lost this year the Eichel acquisition would flip to one of the worst in NHL

 

[FlameChampion]

Damn the Vegas boot licking is painful

I remember when they did the draft virtually everyone was saying how crappy they did, and how dumb they were. Then they started winning and the same people acted as if they didn't say that, praising their genius

Now here we are again, seeing people acting like they are a brilliant org who's on coach 3

They went into the season w/ no goaltending cuz they royally f'ed their situation with Fluery/Lehner. Yet they are geniuses while Edm are bozos for playing a rookie in Skinner

I think people seriously underestimate the Vegas flu and it's success on the team over the years. They also have the luxury of tax

Truth is this team has f'ed ALOT of things up. Fluery, Suzucki,Glass, Patches, Alex Tuch, Nate Schmidt, Dadanov

If this team would have lost this year the Eichel acquisition would flip to one of the worst in NHL

Its hard to really argue your points.

When I look at Vegas's roster, I still dont get it really. Not saying its bad or anything, but seems pretty meh to me.

I just think at the end of the day, Vegas finds ways to win. Oilers find ways to lose. Also just feels like every goalie Vegas has faced has pretty much sh*t the bed against them.

 

[Soundwave]

Its hard to really argue your points.

When I look at Vegas's roster, I still dont get it really. Not saying its bad or anything, but seems pretty meh to me.

I just think at the end of the day, Vegas finds ways to win. Oilers find ways to lose. Also just feels like every goalie Vegas has faced has pretty much sh*t the bed against them.

There's a lot of cognitive dissonance for people here who can't acknowledge that the Oilers don't look that great on paper either. Sure McDavid/Draisaitl/Kane/Hyman looks good good but past that you can easily look at the blueline and say "what the f*** is that shit? Cody Ceci on your top pairing? Evan Bouchard supposedly your best defensive right D? Some guy who was in the AHL as your right D? A rookie in net behind all that?".

Vegas has good winger depth, good center depth, and they have really 2 no.1 Defencemen (Theodore and Pietrangelo). More than that they just don't have a lot of Cecis and Skinners on their roster that can be taken advantage of.

They exploited several weak links on our roster (Nurse, Ceci, Bouchard defensively, Desharnais, Broberg, Skinner, Draisaitl, in particular all made defensive/goaltending errors that led to easy goals for them), how many weak links on their roster were we able to dig into? Basically Broissoit but past that, not a whole lot. The rest of their team just doesn't give you much.

That's the playoffs as much as anything nowadays, it's about how many easy marks do you have on your team that can be taken advantage of, we have too much right now.

Right from the very start of the series, we earn a PP goal (good) to go up 1-0 and what happens? Like 1 minute later Desharnais just hands them a goal back with a brutal turn over for a freebie for them. It would be the first freebie of manys and set the tone for the rest of the series.

 

[Fourier]

Even with their "bad moves" they end up with a useful player in Nic Roy, the Oilers have what to show for Jesse Puljujarvi and soon Kailer Yamamoto? Dick all.

Of course we wouldn't change rosters but that has nothing to do with our scouts or GMs, it's only because we got gifted McDavid and Draisaitl for basically losing on purpose. That's not anything to crow about.

The Knights did not turn a guy like JP into Roy. They traded a guy who had scored 29 goals and 55 points before missing much of the next season with an injury.

Vegas' first draft was 2017. At this point they have not had a single draft pick make any sort positive impact for them. They have continuously mortgaged their future to chase the next big name. They could do this because they used LTIR loopholes and because they are a destination that players want to go to. The strategy may very well pay off this year but it is not because they are geniuses but rather that they were also gifted almost all of the most significant players. Again, this same team missed the playoffs last year.

 

[Soundwave]

The Knights did not turn a guy like JP into Roy. They traded a guy who had scored 29 goals and 55 points before missing much of the next season with an injury.

Vegas' first draft was 2017. At this point they have not had a single draft pick make any sort positive impact for them. They have continuously mortgaged their future to chase the next big name. They could do this because they used LTIR loopholes and because they are a destination that players want to go to. The strategy may very well pay off this year but it is not because they are geniuses but rather that they were also gifted almost all of the most significant players. Again, this same team missed the playoffs last year.

The only reason they missed the playoffs is because of injuries, otherwise they probably would've been near the top of the division again.

2 Cup Finals, several Conference Finals, no.1 in the division like what 3/6 or 4/6 times, quite possibly going to win a Cup here ... I mean there's no way to spin that as "Ackshuaallly, they're not so smart, they just win cuz mystery reasons".

They are very well run and quite frankly maybe GMs overvaluing bull shit like loyalty is part of the reason why Vegas is able to be successful. They are ruthless in bringing in new players and upgrading when they see fit, rather than doing the "lets just hope natural development happens here".

 

[NotASheep]

I'd rather see McDrai get 20 minutes a night and be more rested for the playoffs.


If teams want Hart just wait until the Flyers don't qualify him and sign him as a UFA. He's not going to cost much to sign on a 1 year deal. Send down one of Campbell or Hart depending on their training camp.

campbell would come with a 4mill dead cap hit for us if sent down

 

[Fourier]

The only reason they missed the playoffs is because of injuries, otherwise they probably would've been near the top of the division again.

2 Cup Finals, several Conference Finals, no.1 in the division like what 3/6 or 4/6 times, quite possibly going to win a Cup here ... I mean there's no way to spin that as "dur hur! Ackshuaallly, they're not so smart, they just win cuz mystery reasons".

They are very well run and quite frankly maybe GMs overvaluing bull shit like loyalty is part of the reason why Vegas is able to be successful. They are ruthless in bringing in new players and upgrading when they see fit, rather than doing the "lets just hope natural development happens here".

So why do you think they can get away with being ruthless? It's because players look at the Vegas life style and want to be there. How many players have Vegas on their no-trade list? Maybe some who don't like the drama, but even more want to go there so they take a lower salary or force a trade to play out their string there. AP could have gotten $11M if he was open to play for any team. But he wanted to go to Vegas so he took what they could afford. Fleury also pretty much forced his way to Vegas. He was the main reason for early success. Patches and Stone also pretty much forced a deal to Vegas.

Guess what happens if you are the Calgary Flames and the players don't like how they are being treated. Everyone asks for a trade.

Exchange Skinner's play with Hills and the Oilers probably win that series. But yet you consider one management group geniuses and the other to be a disaster.

 

[Soundwave]

So why do you think they can get away with being ruthless? It's because players look at the Vegas life style and want to be there. How many players have Vegas on their no-trade list? Maybe some who don't like the drama, but even more want to go there so they take a lower salary or force a trade to play out their string there. AP could have gotten $11M if he was open to play for any team. But he wanted to go to Vegas so he took what they could afford. Fleury also pretty much forced his way to Vegas. He was the main reason for early success. Patches and Stone also pretty much forced a deal to Vegas.

Guess what happens if you are the Calgary Flames and the players don't like how they are being treated. Everyone asks for a trade.

Exchange Skinner's play with Hills and the Oilers probably win that series. But yet you consider one management group geniuses and the other to be a disaster.

I think they get away with being ruthless because there's a lot of old fashioned, behind the curve GMs in this league (ours included). Too many guys operating like it's 1998, most of these GMs still don't even understand the salary cap. Same old farts get recycled, in that environment it's not that shocking that a forward thinking group could come in and shake things up. They're not the only team that could've had Eichel, I mean shit Calgary could've probably gotten it done, they just didn't want to go the extra mile. That's the league, there's a lot of GMs who content to be content and won't push the extra mile.

The Oilers really don't have a foot to stand on anyway if they're going to do this whole "wah wah, advantages". If we win a Cup there will be lots of people pointing to us getting lucky and rewarded for basically losing on purpose for almost an entire decade and being gifted multiple top picks.

The fact that the Oilers were in that series and had a chance at winning really just tells you more how brilliant McDavid and Draisaitl were, especially on an unstoppable PP, not so much that our roster as a whole was equal to theirs outside of that.

Their role players, D, didn't give us much, meanwhile on the Oilers you got guys literally falling over to give them free 2 on 1s and passing them the puck so they score off turnovers right in the first five minutes of the series.

Until the Oilers stop having all this trash on their roster that just gifts opponents freebie goals (the D and goaltending especially), it's going to be hard to beat teams that don't fold on their system and don't give you anything for free and then also while maybe not having a McDavid, still have a MacKinnon or Makar or Eichel or Stone who can counter punch.

Woodcroft/Manson might want to try implementing some kind of defensive system that isn't a joke too, that probably would help, but we also have too many players that let us down in the playoffs and gift away easy scores for the opponent.

And you're right, Vegas probably doesn't win with Broissoit ... but the Oilers are going to win with ... Skinner who looked just as bad as Broissoit?