Rumor: Rumors & Proposals Thread | Lavoie Vs. Pederson Vs. Sutter Vs. Gagner Vs. Caggiula

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

and this year? do you believe?

They certainly can, but given the way last year went the absolutely need Campbell to improve in a big way otherwise we're going to be forced to burn out Skinner again.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

You didn't acknowledge the fact that Brown is making $775m this year. It's a very important factor in him signing here. Because anything more than that was going to have trickle down impacts on the roster we ice this year. Even $1m was going to mean one less player on the roster, so the majority of your alternative players aren't realistic options.

His bonus next season won't have the same type of impact knowing that the cap is rising and that the Oilers are a team developing a number of prospects that are close. If it's a success, what's preventing another veteran player from doing the same thing next year?

Knowing that the majority of your options aren't actually options, you're left with cast off tweeners like Sam Steel who teams just can't be bothered to commit to. He wouldn't make this roster.

We don’t even know what the cap situation is going to be to end the year so we really can’t say what Brown’s bonus money going on next years cap will be. I’m guessing they’re going to try and have enough space to put at least 1M-1.5M of it on this years cap.

I think they’re going to use the first half of the season to see who of Foegele, Ceci, Kulak may be made expendable.

My complete guess on the season in terms of upgrades is Ceci dealt and replaced with one of Tanev or Demelo at 50% and then a bottom 6 forward addition at the deadline, someone like Oskar Sundquivst who can chip in a little offense, he’s a big, right shot guy who can play all 3 fwd positions, he can pk, he’s physical and sacrifices the body hitting and blocking shots.

Ceci @ 3.6 out

Tanev/Demelo + Sundqvist in at 2.25M-2.75M in and they finish the year with roughly 1.5M-2M in accrued space to put some of Browns Bonus money on this seasons cap.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

They certainly can, but given the way last year went the absolutely need Campbell to improve in a big way otherwise we're going to be forced to burn out Skinner again.

that's stating the obvious lol

but until the goaltending craters, there's no point in complaining about it

 

[Soundwave]

And I'll be watching for McDavid and Draisaitl to be examples of responsible hockey for the rest of the team, which to this point they have mostly failed to do in their careers rather than throw my hands up and blame Woodcroft for everything.

Yeah lets now force the two best offensive talents in the sport to play D and change their style of game in their 20s because the GM and coach and D and goalie are all too stupid to do their own jobs.

Is it Leon's fault that Woodcroft implemented a dumb as bricks man to man system low that Vegas was smart enough to look at and say "hey, these guys are stupid, we can just bait their D away from the net of the net and then cash in"?

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

We all know Soundwave. You have told us multiple times.

 

[K1984]

Yeah lets now force the two best offensive talents in the sport to play D and change their style of game in their 20s because the GM and coach and D and goalie are all too stupid to do their own jobs.

Is it Leon's fault that Woodcroft implemented a dumb as bricks man to man system low that Vegas was smart enough to look at and say "hey, these guys are stupid, we can just bait their D away from the net of the net and then cash in"?

It isn't possible to play better team defense if they aren't bought in to it. They play more than half the game between them. Everyone can improve in this respect, coaching staff included. That's why I'm talking about team defense here, not trying to pin it on a handful of players while suggesting the leaders of the team don't need to participate.

I don't understand why it's so hard to grasp that if we start winning games 3-1, 4-2, etc on the back of better team defense those two don't have to score more. I don't think it's a stretch to conclude that if they both get in the range of 130-140 points, but the team has a GAA of say 2.50 that it puts us in a much better position to win the Cup than if they score 170, but the team has a GAA of 3.50. We got exposed in the playoffs because we are frankly too used to playing loose hockey as a team. The moment goal scoring became moderately difficult we had no means to win games.

This isn't even unprecedented. The Wings didn't win shit even though they should have until they played more detailed team defense on the back of Yzerman taking the lead in this respect.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Yeah lets now force the two best offensive talents in the sport to play D and change their style of game in their 20s because the GM and coach and D and goalie are all too stupid to do their own jobs.

Is it Leon's fault that Woodcroft implemented a dumb as bricks man to man system low that Vegas was smart enough to look at and say "hey, these guys are stupid, we can just bait their D away from the net of the net and then cash in"?

Honestly, we should just push for them to be moved, right? Because they deserve better than this. They could always win, if it wasn't all of this team, clearly.

 

[Soundwave]

It isn't possible to play better team defense if they aren't bought in to it. They play more than half the game between them. Everyone can improve in this respect, coaching staff included. That's why I'm talking about team defense here, not trying to pin it on a handful of players while suggesting the leaders of the team don't need to participate.

I don't understand why it's so hard to grasp that if we start winning games 3-1, 4-2, etc on the back of better team defense those two don't have to score more. I don't think it's a stretch to conclude that if they both get in the range of 130-140 points, but the team has a GAA of say 2.50 that it puts us in a much better position to win the Cup than if they score 170, but the team has a GAA of 3.50. We got exposed in the playoffs because we are frankly too used to playing loose hockey as a team. The moment goal scoring became moderately difficult we had no means to win games.

This isn't even unprecedented. The Wings didn't win shit even though they should have until they played more detailed team defense on the back of Yzerman taking the lead in this respect.

That's overblown. The Red Wings D began to improve because they had the freaking best D-Man in the world growing into his own.

Yzerman was declining due to age and injury.

Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Malkin, Patrick Kane, never really ever changed their style of game.

Because it's stupid to do so.

The Oilers can play the system they do, but like the 80s Oilers they do need a damn goalie to make a save here and there, it can't just be two players being asked to win every game 16 times in a post-season. Cam Talbot won the Oilers several games in the 2017 playoffs, he saved our ass especially early in that San Jose series by shutting them out 2 times in the first 3 games.

Big difference between that and the sieves in net help McDavid/Drai get these days.

 

[Oilhawks]

The usual suspects ITT:

 

[K1984]

That's overblown. The Red Wings D began to improve because they had the freaking best D-Man in the world growing into his own.

Yzerman was declining due to age and injury.

Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Malkin, Patrick Kane, never really ever changed their style of game.

Because it's stupid to do so.

The Oilers can play the system they do, but like the 80s Oilers they do need a damn goalie to make a save here and there, it can't just be two players being asked to win every game 16 times in a post-season. Cam Talbot won the Oilers several games in the 2017 playoffs, he saved our ass especially early in that San Jose series by shutting them out 2 times in the first 3 games.

They don't have to "change their style of game." They need to be more attentive in zone.

Playing tighter to the D in zone and being more attentive defending the slot and on the backcheck is not "changing their game."

The only stupid thing here is basically suggesting that there is absolutely nothing the leadership group of the team can do to help bring down team GAA (which pretty much anyone agrees has to happen to win a cup) because *gasp* it might result in scoring slightly fewer points.

No matter how much you would like to dream differently, we aren't getting new goalies and we aren't getting new d men that would somehow allow everyone else on the team to keep free wheeleing. To win we have to win with this group, and that means a new focus on defense for everyone.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Honestly, this year will hinge on the right side of the defence. I'm a big believer in Bouchard... less so in Ceci. I think the key will be in the trade deadline, where I think the Oilers will be dangling picks, prospects, Ceci, and Foegele to try to land a right handed Ekholm. Who they're able to get will be the difference between pushing for a Cup or flaming out in the 2nd round again.

 

[Soundwave]

They don't have to "change their style of game." They need to be more attentive in zone.

Playing tighter to the D in zone and being more attentive defending the slot and on the backcheck is not "changing their game."

The only stupid thing here is basically suggesting that there is absolutely nothing the leadership group of the team can do to help bring down team GAA (which pretty much anyone agrees has to happen to win a cup) because *gasp* it might result in scoring slightly fewer points.

We're not losing playoff rounds because of the odd mistake they make, playing the style they play has a little risk to it anyway. We're losing because players like Skinner, Nurse, Ceci are not doing their job or failing miserably at it and then Woodcroft not having a clue about playing defence in the playoffs.

No one can win with the D and goaltending the Oilers have right now against teams like Vegas or Colorado.

Do you think prime Gretzky would? Newsflash, he would not. There's too many players on this roster that don't hold up their end of the bargain.

Like no one is asking Nurse to be Pronger, but how about not getting outplayed by Zack Whitecloud in a playoff series when you're paid more than 9 million?

No one is asking Skinner/Campbell to be Vasilevsky, but how about not being worse than a 40 year old goalie who was hurt?

 

[Anarchism]

It isn't possible to play better team defense if they aren't bought in to it. They play more than half the game between them. Everyone can improve in this respect, coaching staff included. That's why I'm talking about team defense here, not trying to pin it on a handful of players while suggesting the leaders of the team don't need to participate.

I don't understand why it's so hard to grasp that if we start winning games 3-1, 4-2, etc on the back of better team defense those two don't have to score more. I don't think it's a stretch to conclude that if they both get in the range of 130-140 points, but the team has a GAA of say 2.50 that it puts us in a much better position to win the Cup than if they score 170, but the team has a GAA of 3.50. We got exposed in the playoffs because we are frankly too used to playing loose hockey as a team. The moment goal scoring became moderately difficult we had no means to win games.

This isn't even unprecedented. The Wings didn't win shit even though they should have until they played more detailed team defense on the back of Yzerman taking the lead in this respect.

Lets hope Woodcroft has learned and changes it more to zone/team defense at least from the red line back.

Honestly, this year will hinge on the right side of the defence. I'm a big believer in Bouchard... less so in Ceci. I think the key will be in the trade deadline, where I think the Oilers will be dangling picks, prospects, Ceci, and Foegele to try to land a right handed Ekholm. Who they're able to get will be the difference between pushing for a Cup or flaming out in the 2nd round again.

You think we will be able to afford a right hand Ekholm even as a rental. There will be 10 other teams fighting for that guy if one becomes available.
Ceci might benefit by having reduced minutes.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Lets hope Woodcroft has learned and changes it more to zone/team defense at least from the red line back.


You think we will be able to afford a right hand Ekholm even as a rental. There will be 10 other teams fighting for that guy if one becomes available.
Ceci might benefit by having reduced minutes.

Tried that already, didn't work.

Cap space accrues throughout the season and the Oilers will have some. They could have ~2 million by the deadline. Add in Ceci's salary and maybe Foegele's if Holloway shows well, and yeah, they'll be decently positioned.

Don't care who else is in the mix. Get it done, this season needs to be as all in as all in gets. Scape the cupboards bare and go for it.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

that's stating the obvious lol

but until the goaltending craters, there's no point in complaining about it

Well let's just hope it doesn't, because we aren't getting out of that contract.

 

[Anarchism]

Tried that already, didn't work.

Cap space accrues throughout the season and the Oilers will have some. They could have ~2 million by the deadline. Add in Ceci's salary and maybe Foegele's if Holloway shows well, and yeah, they'll be decently positioned.

Don't care who else is in the mix. Get it done, this season needs to be as all in as all in gets. Scape the cupboards bare and go for it.

Really hope your right.
Been suggesting Andrew Peeke for the Ceci position for a couple of years. He is not Ekholm level.
But he has an affordable contract, will likely be available at the deadline and could be very complemetary to Nurse and he wouldn't be a rental.
This guy is like Ethan Bear but with out Ethan's obvious weaknesses. He can skate backward, can make turns and close gaps and knows when and how to challenge both straight up and along the boards.
Moreover if you send out a first and Ceci it could be part of a bigger trade where we acquire another need going into the playoffs. Columbus can afford to take cap to gain draft/prospect capital.
Also a good relationship between the two teams would benefit any further trade talks as Columbus tries to transition into a playoff contender.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Really hope your right.
Been suggesting Andrew Peeke for the Ceci position for a couple of years. He is not Ekholm level.
But he has an affordable contract, will likely be available at the deadline and could be very complemetary to Nurse and he wouldn't be a rental.
Moreover if you send out a first and Ceci it could be part of a bigger trade where we acquire another need going into the playoffs. Columbus can afford to take cap to gain draft/prospect capital.
Also a good relationship between the two teams would benefit any further trade talks as Columbus tries to transition into a playoff contender.

I have concerns about Peeke because his underlying numbers are pretty poor. He plays a lot, but he doesn't necessarily do it well. For the right price could be a fit, but he'd be a pretty underwhelming add to me.

 

[K1984]

We're not losing playoff rounds because of the odd mistake they make, playing the style they play has a little risk to it anyway. We're losing because players like Skinner, Nurse, Ceci are not doing their job or failing miserably at it and then Woodcroft not having a clue about playing defence in the playoffs.

No one can win with the D and goaltending the Oilers have right now against teams like Vegas or Colorado.

Do you think prime Gretzky would? Newsflash, he would not. There's too many players on this roster that don't hold up their end of the bargain.

Like no one is asking Nurse to be Pronger, but how about not getting outplayed by Zack Whitecloud in a playoff series when you're paid more than 9 million?

No one is asking Skinner/Campbell to be Vasilevsky, but how about not being worse than a 40 year old goalie who was hurt?

Correct. That's exactly what I've been saying this entire time.

Like I said, we can be mad that Nurse isn't Pronger, or that Skinner isn't Cujo, but that isn't going to change. The roster is good enough to win if they change their approach, regardless of some personnel deficiencies. Whining about some of the players not being exactly as good as you would like them to be is honestly a waste of energy.

 

[Anarchism]

I have concerns about Peeke because his underlying numbers are pretty poor. He plays a lot, but he doesn't necessarily do it well. For the right price could be a fit, but he'd be a pretty underwhelming add to me.

Look at the team around him for the last 3 or 4 years. Also suggest you look beyond the numbers in his case and watch him mid season last year. You will see some offensive up side that could be developed too.
Werenski was hurt. Andrew and Gravikov became the defacto first pair.

I have concerns about Peeke because his underlying numbers are pretty poor. He plays a lot, but he doesn't necessarily do it well. For the right price could be a fit, but he'd be a pretty underwhelming add to me.

Find me a right hand Ekholm clone for anywhere close to his price and I'll take him.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Look at the team around him for the last 3 or 4 years. Also suggest you look beyond the numbers in his case and watch him mid season last year. You will see some offensive up side that could be developed too.
Werenski was hurt. Andrew and Gravikov became the defacto first pair.


Find me a right hand Ekholm clone for anywhere close to his price and I'll take him.

I've seen him. He's okay. He's big, he's physical, and he can skate, which is all nice things, but I have my doubts as to whether he could play top four on a legitimate contender.

He hasn't been a point producer at any level, even in the USHL.

The guy I wonder about - and this will be very dependent on whether the Jets blow it up or not - is Neal Pionk in Winnipeg. He always stands out as very good against us and he's a complete pain in the ass.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Defining a player by his rookie season, actually not even his rookie season but a 12 game stretch after his good rookie season, seems pretty dubious to me.

Playoffs is what defines goalies of contending teams. Its a different game and teams have much more resolve to get to the net in playoffs and to make plays around net and take pucks directly to net. Its why goalies with battle, Billy Smith, to Ron Hextall to Adin Hill offer their clubs another dimension. These goalies, if they one and one the last line of defense won't hesitate to take out the attacking player themselves. Adin Hill upended McDavid 3 times and likely took two goals away doing just that.

You never get that kind of play from Skinner. I love physical goalies. In all the looks of analytics and goalie coaching its forgotten what Mike Smiths can bring to the table.

I think skinner freezes as well when plays are tight around net. Still some panic there.

 

[Anarchism]

I've seen him. He's okay. He's big, he's physical, and he can skate, which is all nice things, but I have my doubts as to whether he could play top four on a legitimate contender.

He hasn't been a point producer at any level, even in the USHL.

The guy I wonder about - and this will be very dependent on whether the Jets blow it up or not - is Neal Pionk in Winnipeg. He always stands out as very good against us and he's a complete pain in the ass.

Man I would love to have Poink. Almost ideal. But expensive--would be a rental? Has a NTC too.
Realistically if Chevy shopped Poink at he deadline he could get alot and more if he retained a bit.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Man I would love to have Poink. Almost ideal. But expensive--would be a rental? Has a NTC too.

Pionk has another year left after next year, and at 5.875 between cap accrual, sending $$ back, and maybe a bit of retention, we could fit him in *if* Winnipeg decides to blow it up, which to be fair is a sizeable if - but if they move Hellebuyck I'd imagine the floodgates will open up a bit.

 

[Anarchism]

Pionk has another year left after next year, and at 5.875 between cap accrual, sending $$ back, and maybe a bit of retention, we could fit him in *if* Winnipeg decides to blow it up, which to be fair is a sizeable if - but if they move Hellebuyck I'd imagine the floodgates will open up a bit.

You would also have to think Schmidt and Demelo would be first on the block.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

I think we can all agree that everything is going to go right for other teams and everything that could possibly go wrong for the Oilers definitely will.

We definitely won’t improve defensively just like we haven’t improved defensively the last two years and let’s be honest Campbell definitely won’t improve from a historically bad performance as far as goalies go, hell he’ll probably be even worse this year. And don’t even get me started on that All star and Calder finalists, that guys a bum too.

I don’t even know why they’d bother playing the season, everyone already knows they aren’t good enough defensively or goaltending wise. Why even bother playing the games?