Rumor: Rumors and Proposals Thread | Evander Kane, Come on Down?

[Dr Awesome]

I have no interest in him as he doesn’t seem like someone who wants to change. However for the rest of the season I don’t hate it

 

[Broberg Speed]

He’s been playing injured, his shoulder is just now starting to feel 100%

James Neal, lmfao, even for you, that’s a bit much

How many games will you keep telling yourself that until you recognize the player is a dud at that price and contract length?

 

[Tobias Kahun]

How many games will you keep telling yourself that until you recognize the player is a dud at that price and contract length?

using a 10 game sample size to form an opinion isnt a good idea.

 

[Beerfish]

He’s been playing injured, his shoulder is just now starting to feel 100%

James Neal, lmfao, even for you, that’s a bit much

Excuse mongering that other players do not get.

Very much like Neal, got off to a huge start every one loved him and then he went totally into the tank, just like hyman has.

As a fan base we berate tippet constantly, drai, mcdavid, the goalies and some guys who are providing nothing and do not even get a bad word.

10 games, no goals -9, horrible. Oh...but he has an owwie.

 

[Oilhawks]

Excuse mongering that other players do not get.

Very much like Neal, got off to a huge start every one loved him and then he went totally into the tank, just like hyman has.

As a fan base we berate tippet constantly, drai, mcdavid, the goalies and some guys who are providing nothing and do not even get a bad word.

10 games, no goals -9, horrible. Oh...but he has an owwie.

Pathetic post, no surprise.

Every player is getting criticized, so not sure what your point is. Comparing him to Neal is awful player evaluating, but you do you. It must be a really sad existence. Hope you find some peace, best of luck!

 

[Soundwave]

The losses began at the Seattle loss on Dec 3. We were missing Ceci, Nurse and Keith all at different points of that stretch. Russell, too.

They weren't icing a full healthy roster at any point of that stretch.

Not really saying they're world beaters when they are healthy, but they're not a 2-11 roster either. They're better than the majority of this division.

I actually don't think it's a given that they're "better" than the majority of the division. More talented, but talent doesn't mean "better".

They should be, but they're not.

Minus Seattle, they have the worst goaltending in the division currently. That is a massive advantage for LA, Anaheim, Calgary, and Vancouver which nullifies a lot of what McDavid/Draisaitl bring to the table.

They are aside from Seattle also the worst 5 on 5 team in the division.

They also arguably are the worst coached. Not that Tippett is necessarily worse than Eakins and McLellan on balance but he just has no answers for any problem this team has. Can't coach the bottom 6 players, can't coach 5 on 5, the PP is a product of Gulutzan, so really there's no skill in just playing McDavid and Draisaitl 25 minutes a game.

If you add a good goalie then they elevate to second in the division, but without that, they're really not any better than Calgary, Vancouver, LA, or Anaheim factoring in their advantage in net. Which is sad.

 

[belair]

I actually don't think it's a given that they're "better" than the majority of the division.

They should be, but they're not.

Minus Seattle, they have the worst goaltending in the division currently. That is a massive advantage for LA, Anaheim, Calgary, and Vancouver which nullifies a lot of what McDavid/Draisaitl bring to the table.

They are aside from Seattle also the worst 5 on 5 team in the division.

They also arguably are the worst coached. Not that Tippett is necessarily worse than Eakins and McLellan on balance but he just has no answers for any problem this team has. Can't coach the bottom 6 players, can't coach 5 on 5, the PP is a product of Gulutzan, so really there's no skill in just playing McDavid and Draisaitl 25 minutes a game.

If you add a good goalie then they elevate to second in the division, but without that, they're really not any better than Calgary, Vancouver, LA, or Anaheim factoring in their advantage in net. Which is lame.

I understand you're going to die on that hill. You always do when you get these kinds of ideas. First it's the 'Pittsburgh formula' then it was the 'Toronto formula'. There was also the #1D phase. All of them absolutely necessary to win.

The fact of the matter is that the Oilers won a ton of hockey games early on with Koskinen in net for the majority of them. A lot of them because they're a better hockey team than most when healthy. That hasn't changed.

 

[Soundwave]

I understand you're going to die on that hill. You always do when you get these kinds of ideas. First it's the 'Pittsburgh formula' then it was the 'Toronto formula'. There was also the #1D phase. All of them absolutely necessary to win.

The fact of the matter is that the Oilers won a ton of hockey games early on with Koskinen in net for the majority of them. A lot of them because they're a better hockey team than most when healthy. That hasn't changed.

Not really, they won a lot of games early on because the PP was uber hot.

Even in those early games ... go look ... Koskinen was letting in stinkers. The Oilers would just get it back on the PP which was unsustainable.

Something like 7 or 8 of Koskinen's initial wins, the Oilers scored like 5 or more goals. That wasn't going to last.

After the 10th game it basically started to veer downhill, that Rangers come back game (Lowe retirement night) where the had to score 6 goals to win and McDavid had to deke through the entire Rangers defence. They are able to have good stretches with Koskinen but after about 10 games max it generally always falls apart every year.

They are a bad 5 on 5 team under Tippett anyway (under Gulutzan they looked decent 5 on 5), the coach has no answers, and they do have the worst goaltending in the division minus maybe Seattle. These aren't really "opinions", they're just plain facts at this point.

If they get a good goalie they are better than most of the division minus Vegas, if they get a good goalie and a better coach then they might actually win a round. But minus both of those? Nothing is guaranteed, not even playoffs.

 

[belair]

Not really, they won a lot of games early on because the PP was uber hot.

Even in those early games ... go look ... Koskinen was letting in stinkers. The Oilers would just get it back on the PP which was unsustainable.

Something like 7 or 8 of Koskinen's initial wins, the Oilers scored like 5 or more goals. That wasn't going to last.

After the 9th game it basically started to veer downhill, that Rangers come back game (Lowe retirement night) where the had to score 6 goals to win and McDavid had to deke through the entire Rangers defence.

They are a bad 5 on 5 team, the coach has no answers, and they do have the worst goaltending in the division minus maybe Seattle. These aren't really "opinions", they're just plain facts at this point.

And that is no surprise to me one bit. As I've explained to you multiple times, they've been a team that relies on their elites producing at an Art Ross pace and their special teams units running like clockwork. It's been like that for three seasons so what logic is there that those methods suddenly stop paying dividends over a full season?

Goaltenders in this league regularly give up bad goals. They happen. Mikko Koskinen isn't some special breed or particularly bad goaltender. He's human. When he gets overworked, his play slips. But over the long haul, he's pretty average statistically. So is Mike Smith. And Stuart Skinner's numbers so far have been nothing but promising.

Your assumption is that the most recent slide is the norm and that the only way for them to get out of it is to mortgage the future for some quick fix, ignoring all of the other problems the roster has. It's shortsighted and unnecessary.

 

[McShogun99]

Excuse mongering that other players do not get.

Very much like Neal, got off to a huge start every one loved him and then he went totally into the tank, just like hyman has.

As a fan base we berate tippet constantly, drai, mcdavid, the goalies and some guys who are providing nothing and do not even get a bad word.

10 games, no goals -9, horrible. Oh...but he has an owwie.

The whole point of trading for Neal was to buy him out to get out of the Lucic deal. His good first season was just icing on the cake.

We all knew the Hyman deal wasn’t going to age well but hopefully he plays up to his contract for 5 of the 7 seasons. I like what he brings to the team with his grit and work ethic even when he’s not scoring but at the end of the day he needs to be scoring 25 goals to be worth his money.

 

[Broberg Speed]

using a 10 game sample size to form an opinion isnt a good idea.

Fair enough, we'll have plenty of time to debate the hockey abilities of Canadian author, Zach Hyman.

 

[Soundwave]

And that is no surprise to me one bit. As I've explained to you multiple times, they've been a team that relies on their elites producing at an Art Ross pace and their special teams units running like clockwork. It's been like that for three seasons so what logic is there that those methods suddenly stop paying dividends over a full season?

Goaltenders in this league regularly give up bad goals. They happen. Mikko Koskinen isn't some special breed or particularly bad goaltender. He's human. When he gets overworked, his play slips. But over the long haul, he's pretty average statistically. So is Mike Smith. And Stuart Skinner's numbers so far have been nothing but promising.

Your assumption is that the most recent slide is the norm and that the only way for them to get out of it is to mortgage the future for some quick fix, ignoring all of the other problems the roster has. It's shortsighted and unnecessary.

They have never made the playoffs in the McDavid era with bad goaltending. Don't see that changing this year.

Maybe there is a gifted 3rd spot in the Pacific for someone but I think the division is not quite as bad as it was expected.

 

[belair]

They have never made the playoffs in the McDavid era with bad goaltending. Don't see that changing this year.

Maybe there is a gifted 3rd spot in the Pacific for someone but I think the division is not quite as bad as it was expected.

They've made the playoffs multiple times with goaltenders who've had multiple bad stretches of play over their time in Edmonton though.

Your problem is that you have a very specific definition of 'good' and 'bad' when it comes to goaltenders. And it doesn't really rely on statistics or anything tangible.

Goaltenders don't have kind of impact you seem to think they do when it comes to determining whether a team wins or loses.

 

[Soundwave]

They've made the playoffs multiple times with goaltenders who've had multiple bad stretches of play over their time in Edmonton though.

Your problem is that you have a very specific definition of 'good' and 'bad' when it comes to goaltenders. And it doesn't really rely on statistics or anything tangible.

Goaltenders don't have kind of impact you seem to think they do when it comes to determining whether a team wins or loses.

Not really. Smith was bad in December 2019 but that was basically the only prolonged stretch of bad goaltending they've had in the years they've made it.

The bigger problem is right now they don't have anyone who can elevate their play to Talbot 16-17 or Smith 20-21 levels unless a rookie in Skinner can answer the bell for the rest of the year. That's a huge ask of a rookie.

 

[belair]

Not really. Smith was bad in December 2019 but that was basically the only prolonged stretch of bad goaltending they've had in the years they've made it.

The bigger problem is right now they don't have anyone who can elevate their play to Talbot 16-17 or Smith 20-21 levels unless a rookie in Skinner can answer the bell for the rest of the year. That's a huge ask of a rookie.

And it won't matter who they have if they continue to spend the majority of the game defending.

The team's performance has a significantly bigger impact than the name on the back of the goalie's jersey. Always has, always will.

 

[TB12]

You guys are both so entrenched that you’re clearly not going to change one another’s minds. At some point you both just have to move on.

 

[belair]

You guys are both so entrenched that you’re clearly not going to change one another’s minds. At some point you both just have to move on.

I know. But I'm assuming he'll eventually have to buy a new keyboard looking at the number of words he uses to say the same thing over and over.

He'll also go away again once the team starts winning.

 

[TB12]

I know. But I'm assuming he'll eventually have to buy a new keyboard looking at the number of words he uses to say the same thing over and over.

He'll also go away again once the team starts winning.

Lol touché

 

[Soundwave]

And it won't matter who they have if they continue to spend the majority of the game defending.

The team's performance has a significantly bigger impact than the name on the back of the goalie's jersey. Always has, always will.

They've always bled chances against. That's not changing unless the entire D is going to be changed and the entire defensive system is overhauled and you convince the forwards to change how they play.

So basically that's not happening.

The years they make the playoffs they have good goaltending, the years they don't they don't.

If Koskinen is the starter it's basically an auto miss for sure.

 

[Cloned]

You guys are both so entrenched that you’re clearly not going to change one another’s minds. At some point you both just have to move on.

Wise words...

If only they applied to two other posters here.

 

[Blue Line Turnover]

The difference in Hyman's game is night and day, post-injury; I just hope he doesn't exacerbate the shoulder problem, because he's probably playing injured (I'm sure a few guys are)

 

[belair]

They've always bled chances against. That's not changing unless the entire D is going to be changed and the entire defensive system is overhauled and you convince the forwards to change how they play.

So basically that's not happening.

The years they make the playoffs they have good goaltending, the years they don't they don't.

If Koskinen is the starter it's basically an auto miss for sure.

Noted. Didn't realize that it was the personnel and the defensive system that solely determined which team controls the game.

I always figured it was the team that was actually controlling possession and generating more offensive opportunities for themselves. The better team.

 

[foshizzle]

When did Dmen get paid or win Norris’ for defending? Almost every Norris winner in history was a top point producer among D, it’s just a bonus if they can defend. Was Coffey good at defending? What about Fox, Makar or Hughes? Larsson is considered an elite defensive D and he gets paid around 4 million.

I’m to lazy to look up the data but he made Bear look like a top pairing Dman, once he wasn’t paired with Nurse he looked like a 3rd pairing Dman. Barrie had a career year last year being paired with Nurse. Bouchard looks great next to Nurse but once you give him a different partner he looks like a rookie. But yeah, hate on Nurse and his slight overpayment because you don’t like him for whatever reason. If he made it to UFA he’d be getting 9+ from numerous teams.

Haha what? Barrie was the leading scorer amongst all defensemen last year- not one single Norris vote. You also got it backwards - defensemen that defend and can score win Norris trophies. You can want win championships with 6 scoring defensemen.

Dude, you may want look at the analytics of Nurse with and without Bear. There was a pretty big drop off for Nurse when he wasn’t paired with Bear- while Bear remained consistent with whoever he played with. Nurse also made Larsson worse when paired together. Lowetide actually wrote an article about a month ago showing Nurse’s numbers with and without Bear and other players. Like I said, I like Nurse. To say he makes his partners look better is just plain false.

 

[McShogun99]

Haha what? Barrie was the leading scorer amongst all defensemen last year- not one single Norris vote. You also got it backwards - defensemen that defend and can score win Norris trophies. You can want win championships with 6 scoring defensemen.

Dude, you may want look at the analytics of Nurse with and without Bear. There was a pretty big drop off for Nurse when he wasn’t paired with Bear- while Bear remained consistent with whoever he played with. Nurse also made Larsson worse when paired together. Lowetide actually wrote an article about a month ago showing Nurse’s numbers with and without Bear and other players. Like I said, I like Nurse. To say he makes his partners look better is just plain false.

Please don’t say you’re one of the Bear carried Nurse people. Barrie is the exception to Norris voting because he is so bad at defending, he’s more of a 4th forward then anything else. Since 1985 the Norris trophy winners list is full of players that were bad or average at defending but always finished with good point totals. Nurse could legitimately win a Norris trophy in the future if he was the main Dman for our PP.

 

[MessierII]

Price is at minimum as good as Smith but 5 years younger, in the playoffs he's better than any goalie in the West.

Don't tell me goaltending doesn't make a difference, the Oilers were a terrible 3-6 last season before Smith bailed them out.

The thing with price is he hasn’t played this year and just was in rehab. He needs to fine back and play.